So, I'm full of anti-wof talking points, prejudice and misinformed?

[joaniemarie]

I think revelation of the Word comes in part to us all the time Joanie. I can't really get upset with anyone here that doesn't see these things yet. And I know you are the same. But, someone will hear. Someone will see.

I just dont enjoy the division that comes with it. I've lost friendships here that I treasured. That does hurt. But, I can't go back on what I see to be truth either.

Oh yes... forgot to mention Stonesoffire... calling you again

Like you., I experience personal leading from the Holy Spirit all the time. How else do we know what to do in our day to day lives? We need Him every single day. We need Him to comfort us and teach us and lead us and show us what to do personally every single day.

How to see Jesus in every situation... how to trust in all facets of life .. what job do I take?., who do I marry? What person do I hire? How do I pay this bill? What do I tell my son? What do I do with my dog who is sick? What do I do about this 3-4 ft of snow? How do I tell my friend at work about Jesus when she is so angry and hurt about God?

All those questions and millions more questions in our lives need personal answers and we can have them when we ask. And He will daily lead us and reveal the answers as we go with Him in life and take Him with us in all these areas of our lives.

When we trust in the Lord with all our hearts and lean not to our own understanding... when we in all our ways ACKNOWLEDGE Him... He will OF COURSE lead us on the right path. Of course we must have personal revelation from the Holy Spirit. He is a person and His job is to lead us into all truth. It's called in the Bible walking in the spirit.... it's called not trusting in ourselves but defying the world...flesh and devil by having faith in the finished work of Christ. And trusting in His provision of the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives. It's by that power we can do all things in Christ.

 

[stonesoffire]

​I agree the "blab it and grab it" doctrine is not Biblical. Also the idea that the Lord would tell someone something that does not agree with the context of the Bible is false also, the Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself.

To hear a Word from the mouth of the Lord, that we can believe and hold till it comes to pass, is not blab it and grab it.

I find that very offensive. Not worthy to be spoken on a Christian chat forum who's objective is to tell the goodness of the Lord to the world.

 

[bluto]

You know joaniemarie why is it that you keep bringing up "healing in the atonement" on this thread when that is not the subject we are discussing? You also keep agreeing with lancelot here (which is your right) but what is your personal opinion on this issue of Jesus being tortured in hell by Satan and then Jesus having to be born again in hell in order to defeat Satan? This is "NOT" a "Can everybody get along issue" joaniemarie. And when lancelot says none of this is heresy, he is right, it's worse, it's BLASPHEMY. Please read the following.

JESUS -- BORN AGAIN WHILE SUFFERING UNDER SATAN'S TORTURERS IN HELL -- HERESY You should know there are literally hundreds of sights that challeng these wof teachers and teachings. Wake up! There is a real world out there and I'm reminded what the Apostle Paul said at Acts 20:27-31, "For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. vs28, Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which HE PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD, vs29, I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in AMONG YOU not sparing the flock, vs30, and FROM AMONG YOUR OWN SELVES men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw the disciples ater them. vs31, Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I DID NOT CEASE TO ADMONISH EACH ONE WITH TEARS."

In other words, Paul is telling us that the church will not only be attacked from without but also from within. So who do you think these people/WOLVES are within the church trying to lure people away to follow them? You know what else is really interesting about all of this?

At 2 Timothy2:15-18 the Apostle Paul writes, "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed handling accurately the word of truth. vs16, But avoid wordly and empty chatter for it will lead to further ungodleness. vs17, and their talk will spread like gangrene Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, vs18, men who have gone astray from the truth (how did they go astray?) saying that the resurrection has already taken place and thus they upset the faith of some."

My point is the fact that the Apostle Paul was upset because a couple of guys was telling everybody the resurrection had already taken place. As if that is not bad enough can you imagine what he would have said to those wof teachers that teach Jesus Christ went to hell itself and was tortured by Satan and his minions resulting in Jesus being born again in hell? What utter blasphemy. Again I say wake up.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Bumped for joainemarie. Why am I hearing only hearing "crickets" from you? And do you agree with the site I posted?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Angela53510]

I see...so you want to challenge me with your superior knowledge of the Greek language because I'm so off balance.

This thread is challenging Word of faith doctrine. I only got into this conversation with Wolf because he was posting to Joanie but he used my name by mistake, then he asked me the same question that he asked Joanie. If you had read the thread, you should of seen this.

My agreement with the Word of faith or the little I know of their teachings is that we do claim promises from the scriptures. I ask the Lord questions all the time, and He guides me to truth. No one should have to be Greek or Hebrew scholars to be taught by Holy Spirit. You all question me now on my hearing His Voice.

Everyone who names His name and is filled with His Spirit should eventually in their walk, have been tutored by the Lord in hearing Him. It's how we have relationship with Him, and not just hearing a pastor teach. This is also how we know we should be in a certain fellowship, when we hear from our teachers what we are being told in our private time with Him.

The scriptures in the N T show that there are things Holy Spirit teaches. So this is how my life with Him has been and I see this way of relationship mirrored in the Word.

Just explaining my way of study. The Word says that the bread that we eat, or the Word that we base our life on is the rhema, or the inspired, breath of words we receive directly from Him. Is this true Angela? Its Holy Spirit we need for all of life. Is this true Angela? How many here are Greek and Hebrew scholars? Yet everyone here has their own thought from the Word including you.

Its your attitude of superiority that is wrong. And a challenge is never from Holy Spirit. To show someone an error is to be out of wanting to help. Not drive away. I had you on ignore but reading without logging in brings up everything.


My point out of these scriptures concerning that question from Wolf are three simple thoughts to show that we are no longer just a natural minded person thinking our own will and way, but living our life by His Word. Again the rhema Word.

We are spiritual beings. Verse 9 Our human nature or the I of our life is crucified with Christ and we are risen with Him in resurrection life.

There is an instant change with us in our born again experience. We pass from death to life by an action of God on our inner man. All should agree with this who are born again. I've not met anyone who is, differ.

Verse 9 states but we are Spirit. Agree?

We are under no debt to the flesh to live accordingly, but live as members of His body on earth. Verse 12 No longer a transgressor against God. Is what Strongs say. Agree?

And believe the promises. My thought about promises? All are yes and amen. Is why I posted a song from Bethel. Not sure which thread now. Some are running together. The song is about His yes and amen way of answering our faith. That's child like faith. He's our daddy and He said....

This affects our whole of our life. Spirit, soul, and body.

You all accept spirit and maybe soul, but reject body.

I differ with this and agree with Joanie and all who believe this and am walking my faith out. And receiving. Waiting for completion.

I wanted Wolf to look at the word quicken and tell me what this means to him.
Its to vitalize again in Strongs. I will use other lexicons if I need more understanding. But Strongs for me is sufficient. Again depending on Him more.

I just looked at the hebrew for "decree a thing and you shall have".

decide acceptance of promises.

This is old testament. I hear some say that we can decree a thing and we will have it. That never sat well with me inside so I looked at it.

Job 22:28 Thou shalt also decree a thing, and it shall be established unto thee: and the light shall shine upon thy ways.


decree:


H1504

גָּזַ
gâzar​

gaw-zar'
A primitive root; to cut down or off; (figuratively) to destroy, divide, exclude or decide: - cut down (off), decree, divide, snatch.
Total KJV occurrences: 13

Decide fits the context.

a thing:


H562

אֹמֶר​

'ômer
o'-mer
The same as H561: - promise, speech, thing, word.
Total KJV occurrences: 6



be established:


H6965

קוּם​

qûm
koom
A primitive root; to rise (in various applications, literally, figuratively, intensively and causatively): - abide, accomplish, X be clearer, confirm, continue, decree, X be dim, endure, X enemy, enjoin, get up, make good, help, hold, (help to) lift up (again), make, X but newly, ordain, perform, pitch, raise (up), rear (up), remain, (a-) rise (up) (again, against), rouse up, set (up), (e-) stablish, (make to) stand (up), stir up, strengthen, succeed, (as-, make) sure (-ly), (be) up (-hold, -rising).

When we decide, promises rise.

Fits right in with words spoken in faith that are promises from the Lord will be given.

Then to check it?

ISV

Job 22:28 When you make a decision on something, it will be established for you, and light will brighten your way.

This religious way of thinking that God gives diseases to teach us lessons is crazy. Disease came from the fall. Being an overcomer in life is the way Jesus brought to us, His own body. And the way is by His blood sacrifice....and THE WORD OF TESTIMONY!

I just watched a movie on prime called Breathe. Polio and confined to a respirator. No abundant life. Don't tell me this is from God.

He loves us! He has given us power! And He calls us to follow Him. We aren't alone. He is with us, and the moment we decide to believe...He runs to us.

Im done with this thread. And this topic.

First, I want to apologize for putting you down, because your Greek is not as advanced as mine, in the way I did. I felt the Lord convict me, just getting back to it, now. So, I'm sorry! I just hope that your interest in the original languages will somehow result in you actually studying the languages, in books, not just pulling stuff of random websites, with 20 or 30 random glosses, and not attached to actual verses, nor anything to do with translating the meaning from Greek or Hebrew.

But, gloss word studies do tend to drive me to distraction, as they are worse than useless. There are lots of subtleties in both Greek and Hebrew, grammar, syntax, vocabulary, that copying and pasting from some unnamed website simply do not reveal. So, a word in isolation, never tells the whole story. It loses CONTEXT! Oh that word again!

Second, there is no point in posting in KJV to me. I just have to look it up, to see what it says in real English.

Romans is a systematic theology, you can't pull even 8 verses out, and truly understand what they say.

To say nothing of the fact that you posted a bunch of random words in Hebrew, under the passage in your post above. You do know that the NT was written in Greek, right? In fact, perhaps those random words came from the passage from Job? Or you just decided to "claim" a bunch of Hebrew words? Not sure where you are coming from.

And before I even start with the Romans 8 passage, what are you trying to say, exactly? That we are perfect, once we are in the Spirit? Perfect in our bodies? Or something about "claiming" promises?" I don't get how this fits into Romans 8, at all.

I've been reading the commentaries on Romans, Romans 8 in particular, and it is just so rich, and deep and amazing! I really got side tracked, and that is a good thing. I just finished Romans again in English, and I am on the 4th chapter in Greek. And Romans definitely is a favourite of mine.

But, in none of these commentaries, or tools, not once did I see even the slightest indication that this was about us. In fact, one commentary insisted this passage above was an amazing example of the Trinity in Scripture, which was echoed in the others. Because Paul refers to the Holy Spirit, to Jesus and to the Father in the same ways.

I might come back to the Greek of Romans 8 later, except for answering something you posted above. Something straight out of the mouths of WoF teachers.

Just explaining my way of study. The Word says that the bread that we eat, or the Word that we base our life on is the rhema, or the inspired, breath of words we receive directly from Him. Is this true Angela? Its Holy Spirit we need for all of life.

"But He answered, “It is written:
Man must not live on bread alone
but on every word that comes
from the mouth of God.” Matt 4:4, HCSB


"ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν· Γέγραπται· Οὐκ ἐπ’ ἄρτῳ μόνῳ ζήσεται ὁ ἄνθρωπος, ἀλλ’ ἐπὶ παντὶ ῥήματι ἐκπορευομένῳ διὰ στόματος θεοῦ." Matt 4:4 Greek.

First, you do a real disservice to this text, by pulling it out of context. Because, this is about JESUS, and how he used the WRITTEN Word of God to rebuke Satan. Not some kind of airy fairy revelation from out of the air to do with you, at all!

This was during the temptation of Jesus. In each of the 3 temptations of Jesus, he used quotes from the Old Testament to rebuke Satan.

Matt 4:4, Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 8:3; in Matt 4:6, Jesus quotes Psalm 91:11-12, and in Matthew 4:7, Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 4:16.

It does unbelievable violence to the text, to quote Matt 4:4 and use it to "prove" that because God speaks to you by the Holy Spirit, and the word is rhema in this passage, therefore, it means that some kind of "breath" of a word in your spirit, means you hear from God, and it is a higher revelation than the written word of God. It really shocks me the ignorance of preachers that preach this, and second Christians who believe this. I guess this is what Joanie keeps on posting about. Thanks for letting me know where she got this completely erroneous interpretation. From lying false prophets and teachers!

(By the way, breathe is usually pneuma in Greek, or ruach in Hebrew. Nothing at all to do with any of these passages. Another word faith fake definition, I do remember hearing in the 1980s. And finally realizing how wrong it is to say, rhema means breathe)


The word in question is ῥήματι which is the dative singular, meaning "word, thing." In fact, in Deut. 8:3, (quoted in Matt 4:4) in Hebrew, the word means "thing" NOT "breath," not even "word" and it gives a positive reason for Jesus action in Matt 4:4.

Bauer (BDAG) has 2 definitions of the word 'ρῆμα, neither of which has a thing to do with what you are saying.

1. that which is said, word, saying, expression, statement of any kind. For example:

"Then the police reported these words to the magistrates. They were afraid when they heard that Paul and Silas were Roman citizens." Acts 16:38.

The words = τὰ ῥήματα (Accusative Neuter plural) in Greek. So, words that had nothing to do with God, just what Paul had spoken to the police officers, concerning the way he and Silas had been treated by the magistrates, and that they wanted an apology from the magistrates.

This is the example, but there are many, many more. In fact, there are 68 uses of the word rhema in the NT, which includes all the words under definition 2, too, which is the definition in Matt 4:4

2. after the Hebrew, an event that can be spoken about, thing, object, manner, event.

The first example given is from Luke 1:37, another verse Word Faith people love to pull out of context.

"For nothing will be impossible with God.” Luke 1:37 HCSB

"ὅτι οὐκ ἀδυνατήσει παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ πᾶν ῥῆμα."Luke 1:37 Greek

This is what MARY said, when the angel spoke to her. Notice the word goes with πᾶν - πᾶν ῥῆμα.

πᾶν means all. And in this case, ῥῆμα means THING! So, add it to the extra οὐκ or "not," and it means "not all thing." But, because English frowns on a double negative, add the ἀδυνατήσει Future Indicative Active (adunatesei) it become "no THING" or "nothing" in English.

So, no, nothing to do with some false prophet speaking words given to him, supposedly by the Holy Spirit, contradicting the written Word, the REAL Word of God. Or some Word Faith devotee, who is being encouraged to believe things that are NOT in the Bible, at all, in any language!

I am so glad you brought this to my attention. The word is completely being wrongly used, translated by you and Word Faith preachers.

Romans 8 another day? Or is this good enough?

No, I guess I need to deal with this nonsense that being in the spirit, makes you somehow able to heal ALL diseases. Another eisegetical fantasy, no doubt!


I'm really glad we have had the opportunity to go through each and every verse these Word Faith heretics use, and divide it rightly. NEVER do these verses and words remain even remotely close to the nonsense you and others like Joanie, Ben, Lance, and Know1 think they do. To say nothing of those phenomenally ignorant preachers who distort the written word, or reject it outright, when it disagrees with their lying doctrines, by saying the rhema word - word or thing trumps the written word.

NEVER!

PS. After going through this whole issue of rhema, no, you have no clue about anything to do with Greek or Hebrew! Sorry, those are the facts. I do hope you take up the challenge to actually study these languages, it might totally change your whole theology!

Edited to get under 20,000 words! Yikes!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I jealously wish you would keep talking Angela.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Romans is a systematic theology, you can't pull even 8 verses out, and truly understand what they say.

absolutely bears repeating!!!

 

[7seasrekeyed]

And before I even start with the Romans 8 passage, what are you trying to say, exactly? That we are perfect, once we are in the Spirit? Perfect in our bodies? Or something about "claiming" promises?" I don't get how this fits into Romans 8, at all.

I think you are 'hitting' on something here

I've seen some vague posts around the forums (in threads I don't respond in but have read from time to time)

that seem to hint at some kind of supernatural transition from flesh to spirit...as if there is a realm in the spirit wherein people interact and or commune with God

we will not be made perfect until we see the One who is perfect...when we see Him we shall be like Him...transformed

in the meantime, we are imperfect, yet the Holy Spirit indwells us and God does work through the imperfect....working things ...all things...according to His will

that being said, we do experience the presence of God...through His Spirit and I know I have certainly 'felt' that He is right there with me...but I suppose that special 'spirit' place is one of those new revelations the rest of us earthlings do not know about

 

[bluto]

I'm not a literalist. I don't even agree with the teaching that Jesus descended into hell. The question was whether or not I consider the teaching heresy, and I don't, and neither did Calvin when he defended the statement.

"If Christ had died only a bodily death, it would have been ineffectual. No — it was expedient at the same time for him to undergo the severity of God’s vengeance, to appease his wrath and satisfy his just judgment. For this reason, he must also grapple hand to hand with the armies of hell and the dread of everlasting death." https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/christdecended.html


So how is it heresy for WoF but not for Calvin? True, creeds aren't scripture. So then why do we have them? Because leaders throughout church history realized that they needed to establish and codify their essential beliefs and refute error and heresies, as I'm sure you know. You seem to want to be the one who decides what is essential and what is heresy, but the church has always sought a consensus on these things. That's why almost all churches and denominations have a statement of faith. Can you produce for us a statement of faith or creed that condemns the WoF teaching on this? If there is one, I'm sure it's relatively new (less than 40 years old), because I haven't been able to locate one, and I've been looking for a quarter of a century since Christianity in Crisis was published.

As for Copeland, I don't agree with that statement. I don't even agree with Kenneth Hagin's view on this. But again the question was "is it heresy"?

As for Jesus being separated from God the Father on the cross, allow me to quote Billy Graham on this.

"The penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23). Death includes two dimensions—physical and spiritual. Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body. Spiritual death is the separation of the spirit from God. Since Jesus was dying for our sin as our substitute, He was experiencing the agony of separation from His Father. It was the agony of hell." https://billygraham.org/answer/did-god-really-forsake-jesus-when-he-was-dying-on-the-cross/

I didn't just fall off the theological turnip truck, bluto. I've been at this a long time, and you're condescension doesn't phase me at all.

BTW, thank you for your service. It was a crappy war and I hate what our government did to you guys. I salute you.

Now to get back to you lancelot. First of all Satan and his minions are "NOT" in hell. This means that hagin, copeland and other prominet wof teachers don't know what their talking about. The more immediate issue is they said Jesus was tortured in hell, took on the nature of Satan and was born again in hell. Those are their teachings and the are not Biblical.

Regarding Calvin that is his opinion. It's like any other issue where people have different viewpoints and the same goes for Billy Graham. I am not a Calvinist nor am I into Arminianism. Over the years I have changed my position on certain issues and one of them is what Billy Graham believes. I too was taught that God forsook His Son because God cannot look at sin etc. I also changed my position from being a pre-tribber (which I was taught early on) to a Post-tribulationist.

So by you giving me what Calvin and what Billy Graham believes has no bearing on what the wof teachers are teaching. Too me your just presenting a "smoke screen" to justify them even though you said you don't agree with them concluding they are not teaching heresy. Like I said, they are not only teaching heresy (which is bad enough) but they are teaching blasphemy. Wof teachers love to "embellish" what they say as well as tell "embellished" stories like hagin who has more than once been caught lying. And thank you for your kind words regarding my miltary service. ;EEK:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[stonesoffire]

Angela:
First, I want to apologize for putting you down, because your Greek is not as advanced as mine, in the way I did. I felt the Lord convict me, just getting back to it, now. So, I'm sorry! I just hope that your interest in the original languages will somehow result in you actually studying the languages, in books, not just pulling stuff of random websites, with 20 or 30 random glosses, and not attached to actual verses, nor anything to do with translating the meaning from Greek or Hebrew.

But, gloss word studies do tend to drive me to distraction, as they are worse than useless. There are lots of subtleties in both Greek and Hebrew, grammar, syntax, vocabulary, that copying and pasting from some unnamed website simply do not reveal. So, a word in isolation, never tells the whole story. It loses CONTEXT! Oh that word again!

Second, there is no point in posting in KJV to me. I just have to look it up, to see what it says in real English.

Romans is a systematic theology, you can't pull even 8 verses out, and truly understand what they say.

To say nothing of the fact that you posted a bunch of random words in Hebrew, under the passage in your post above. You do know that the NT was written in Greek, right? In fact, perhaps those random words came from the passage from Job? Or you just decided to "claim" a bunch of Hebrew words? Not sure where you are coming from.

And before I even start with the Romans 8 passage, what are you trying to say, exactly? That we are perfect, once we are in the Spirit? Perfect in our bodies? Or something about "claiming" promises?" I don't get how this fits into Romans 8, at all.

Stones: am on the iPad and is easier to answer this way.

No, am not saying we are perfect. I've never said that so I don't know where you got that idea. The point is we are no longer just of the human nature, but we are Spirit. Spirit ruled. Do you understand the concept?

Angela
I've been reading the commentaries on Romans, Romans 8 in particular, and it is just so rich, and deep and amazing! I really got side tracked, and that is a good thing. I just finished Romans again in English, and I am on the 4th chapter in Greek. And Romans definitely is a favourite of mine.

But, in none of these commentaries, or tools, not once did I see even the slightest indication that this was about us. In fact, one commentary insisted this passage above was an amazing example of the Trinity in Scripture, which was echoed in the others. Because Paul refers to the Holy Spirit, to Jesus and to the Father in the same ways.

I might come back to the Greek of Romans 8 later, except for answering something you posted above. Something straight out of the mouths of WoF teachers.

stones:

Rom 8:12 Consequently, brothers, we are not—with respect to human nature, that is—under an obligation to live according to human nature.

What are you saying Angela? Romans 8 is not a teaching to the church? Who is Paul speaking to then?

Angela:

"But He answered, “It is written:
Man must not live on bread alone
but on every word that comes
from the mouth of God.” Matt 4:4, HCSB


"ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν· Γέγραπται· Οὐκ ἐπ’ ἄρτῳ μόνῳ ζήσεται ὁ ἄνθρωπος, ἀλλ’ ἐπὶ παντὶ ῥήματι ἐκπορευομένῳ διὰ στόματος θεοῦ." Matt 4:4 Greek.

First, you do a real disservice to this text, by pulling it out of context. Because, this is about JESUS, and how he used the WRITTEN Word of God to rebuke Satan. Not some kind of airy fairy revelation from out of the air to do with you, at all!

stones:

Deuteronomy 8:3 He humbled you, causing you to be hungry, yet he fed you with manna that neither you nor your ancestors had known, in order to teach you that human beings are not to live by food alone—instead human beings are to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD.

Stones:
Manna came from heaven to Israel. Rhema Word comes from heaven also. It's a weapon in our mouth from His. Really, Angela I think you have proved what I say rather than yourself.

Angela:

This was during the temptation of Jesus. In each of the 3 temptations of Jesus, he used quotes from the Old Testament to rebuke Satan.

stones:

how else does one put on the mind of Christ but by His Word, and His way?


Matt 4:4, Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 8:3; in Matt 4:6, Jesus quotes Psalm 91:11-12, and in Matthew 4:7, Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 4:16.


Angela:
It does unbelievable violence to the text, to quote Matt 4:4 and use it to "prove" that because God speaks to you by the Holy Spirit, and the word is rhema in this passage, therefore, it means that some kind of "breath" of a word in your spirit, means you hear from God, and it is a higher revelation than the written word of God. It really shocks me the ignorance of preachers that preach this, and second Christians who believe this. I guess this is what Joanie keeps on posting about. Thanks for letting me know where she got this completely erroneous interpretation. From lying false prophets and teachers!

(By the way, breathe is usually pneuma in Greek, or ruach in Hebrew. Nothing at all to do with any of these passages. Another word faith fake definition, I do remember hearing in the 1980s. And finally realizing how wrong it is to say, rhema means
The word in question is ῥήματι which is the dative singular, meaning "word, thing." In fact, in Deut. 8:3, (quoted in Matt 4:4) in Hebrew, the word means "thing" NOT "breath," not even "word" and it gives a positive reason for Jesus action in Matt 4:4.

Bauer (BDAG) has 2 definitions of the word 'ρῆμα, neither of which has a thing to do with what you are saying.

1. that which is said, word, saying, expression, statement of any kind. For example:

"Then the police reported these words to the magistrates. They were afraid when they heard that Paul and Silas were Roman citizens." Acts 16:38.

Stones: Wikipedia

Rhema (ῥῆμα in Greek) literally means an "utterance" or "thing said" in Greek.[SUP][1][/SUP] It is a word that signifies the action of utterance.[SUP][2][/SUP]

The words = τὰ ῥήματα (Accusative Neuter plural) in Greek. So, words that had nothing to do with God, just what Paul had spoken to the police officers, concerning the way he and Silas had been treated by the magistrates, and that they wanted an apology from the magistrates.

Stones:

Isnt the point that it came directly from their being? Paul and Silas, I mean? So again, you are proving my points not yours.


Angela:
This is the example, but there are many, many more. In fact, there are 68 uses of the word rhema in the NT, which includes all the words under definition 2, too, which is the definition in Matt 4:4

2. after the Hebrew, an event that can be spoken about, thing, object, manner, event.

The first example given is from Luke 1:37, another verse Word Faith people love to pull out of context.

"For nothing will be impossible with God.” Luke 1:37 HCSB

"ὅτι οὐκ ἀδυνατήσει παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ πᾶν ῥῆμα."Luke 1:37 Greek

This is what MARY said, when the angel spoke to her. Notice the word goes with πᾶν - πᾶν ῥῆμα.

πᾶν means all. And in this case, ῥῆμα means THING! So, add it to the extra οὐκ or "not," and it means "not all thing." But, because English frowns on a double negative, add the ἀδυνατήσει Future Indicative Active (adunatesei) it become "no THING" or "nothing" in English.



So, no, nothing to do with some false prophet speaking words given to him, supposedly by the Holy Spirit, contradicting the written Word, the REAL Word of God. Or some Word Faith devotee, who is being encouraged to believe things that are NOT in the Bible, at all, in any language!

Stones:

The real Word is a person. The person of Jesus the Messiah, anointed of God. So, every word proceeding from the mouth of God is the rhema from the logos. Not really hard to understand is it? Unless it's all in the head and not out of the heart.

How do you think the scriptures were written anyway? Inspired. This is not out of the mind of man. Spirit of God.


Angela
I am so glad you brought this to my attention. The word is completely being wrongly used, translated by you and Word Faith preachers.

stones:

yes. Me too.

Angela:
Romans 8 another day? Or is this good enough?

stones:

whatever.


Angela:
No, I guess I need to deal with this nonsense that being in the spirit, makes you somehow able to heal ALL diseases. Another eisegetical fantasy, no doubt!

stones:

? Where did you get that idea? Not from me, nor any of my teachers. And I don't recall anything like this from Joanie. There is a gift of healing given to some in the body. I haven't received this gift that I am aware of. I have gifts but not this particular one. And for the bodynof Christ, none have all things. We are members and move according to the Head. Not our own thought. Nor our own will.
Even that which I've seen is not all healed. I can say that there should be a point of contact between a believer who is ready to receive, and the one praying. Not all are open to receive. I say this from my own experience and from observing. Not a teaching.
Nor did Jesus heal everyone, but He healed all that did come to Him, except the dead. They couldn't of course.

We know from scripture that Jesus moved in union with Father. Why? He as the Son of God could have wiped out all disease and Satan too. He's just a created being of His.

Theres a plan of Father. This is my thought. Father knows who are His. Jesus may, not sure. All that will be born and redeemed will. Just my thought, not teaching it.

So back to Jesus moving in union with Father. He showed us the way, (being the Way) that we His body on earth should move. In union with them both. Can you do this with just the written word? I don't think so.

We must be one with them. This is only through Spirit. Spirit is not just some airy fairy (really Angela) thought floating in space. Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God Himself. Given to us in measure but increases within as we grow into Him. How? It's a mystery isn't it? Paul said that.

Angela
I'm really glad we have had the opportunity to go through each and every verse these Word Faith heretics use, and divide it rightly. NEVER do these verses and words remain even remotely close to the nonsense you and others like Joanie, Ben, Lance, and Know1 think they do. To say nothing of those phenomenally ignorant preachers who distort the written word, or reject it outright, when it disagrees with their lying doctrines, by saying the rhema word - word or thing trumps the written word.

NEVER!

PS. After going through this whole issue of rhema, no, you have no clue about anything to do with Greek or Hebrew! Sorry, those are the facts. I do hope you take up the challenge to actually study these languages, it might totally change your whole theology!

Edited to get under 20,000 words! Yikes!

stones:

by the way, you should check and note how the OT is taught by the Rabbi's. The Spiritual meanings are one of them. And Paul could be accused of the very thing you are accusing me of.

 

[Johnny_B]

To hear a Word from the mouth of the Lord, that we can believe and hold till it comes to pass, is not blab it and grab it.

I find that very offensive. Not worthy to be spoken on a Christian chat forum who's objective is to tell the goodness of the Lord to the world.

You totally missed what I am saying, it is simpley name it and claim it, re-worded, to blab it and grab it. The whole wof doctrine is setting your mind on earthly things getting more of earthly goods, when that is not what the Holy Spirit tells us to do. Colossians 3:1-4

“If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.”

The Holy Spirit tells us not to focus on things that are on the earth, so the blab it and grab it doctrine goes against what the Holy Spirit is telling us in the Scriptures. The Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself, He does not say something in the written word then speak something totally different to someone. Jesus tells us not to worry about our daily needs, but to seek the kingdom of God and as we've already seen, we are not to seek or focus on the things of earth. Matthew 6:30-33

“But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all.33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.”

Jesus says that those that are not His people seek those things of the earth and His people are to seek the kingdom and His righteousness and all your dily needs will be added to you. You do not need to blab it and grab it the Lord will take care of all our daily needs, no need to blab and grab it. So we do not need to blab and grab the Lord takes care of us so we can dedicate our ourselves to seeking the kingdom and His righteousness and He will take care of us, so those that think they need to blab and grab have no faith in what the written word says and the Lord Himself.

 

[Depleted]

Bluto, nice try. I applaud you. I also wish the two of you could have kept talking without all the cross talk.

 

[MattforJesus]

Jesus did not take on the sin nature of Satan but He was a sacrifice that the sins of the world were placed on Him,but when He died then those sins were put off Him.

He did not go to hell to take on the sin nature of Satan but to conquer hell,and the grave,for when He died and the sins of the world were put off Him,then He was like before He went to the cross,and as a sinless man rose from the grave.

Jesus is human and said that the Father will never leave Him,and at the cross it was the man Christ Jesus that cried out My God why have you forsaken Me for He must of felt what it was like to be separated from God when the sins were placed on Him,but He knew the Father did not actually leave Him for He said Father in to your hands I commend My spirit,and Jesus was still sinless even at the time the sins of the world were placed on Him,for the sins did not affect Him from being sinless they were only placed upon Him to take them away to the people that turn to Him.

Jesus is sinless at all times even at the cross,and hell,and the grave,and when He rose,for His nature cannot change.The sins were only placed on Him which means that He took them away,and they did not taint Him and His nature.

If the cross could change Jesus' nature to be like Satan then He would of not qualified to be the Savior.

Jesus took the sins of the world away means that people can be forgiven for their sins,and have them removed completely if they repent,and confess Christ,abide by the truth,not that they affected Jesus for He is sinless at all times.

 

[stonesoffire]

You totally missed what I am saying, it is simpley name it and claim it, re-worded, to blab it and grab it. The whole wof doctrine is setting your mind on earthly things getting more of earthly goods, when that is not what the Holy Spirit tells us to do. Colossians 3:1-4

“If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.”

The Holy Spirit tells us not to focus on things that are on the earth, so the blab it and grab it doctrine goes against what the Holy Spirit is telling us in the Scriptures. The Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself, He does not say something in the written word then speak something totally different to someone. Jesus tells us not to worry about our daily needs, but to seek the kingdom of God and as we've already seen, we are not to seek or focus on the things of earth. Matthew 6:30-33

“But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all.33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.”

Jesus says that those that are not His people seek those things of the earth and His people are to seek the kingdom and His righteousness and all your dily needs will be added to you. You do not need to blab it and grab it the Lord will take care of all our daily needs, no need to blab and grab it. So we do not need to blab and grab the Lord takes care of us so we can dedicate our ourselves to seeking the kingdom and His righteousness and He will take care of us, so those that think they need to blab and grab have no faith in what the written word says and the Lord Himself.

You are judging a movement by gossip. I saw nothing in anyone's post nor is there anything in mine, where you would be able to label us in this coarse way.

Its not my way to be looking for Satan in every stream of believers. Am looking for unity of spirit in fellowship. None of us have all of God, and none of us has doctrine perfect. It would be great if we did, but would we learn love?

Are we learning to love one another with imperfections? Imperfections that we all have. And to treat each other with respect?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Now to get back to you lancelot. First of all Satan and his minions are "NOT" in hell. This means that hagin, copeland and other prominet wof teachers don't know what their talking about. The more immediate issue is they said Jesus was tortured in hell, took on the nature of Satan and was born again in hell. Those are their teachings and the are not Biblical.

Regarding Calvin that is his opinion. It's like any other issue where people have different viewpoints and the same goes for Billy Graham. I am not a Calvinist nor am I into Arminianism. Over the years I have changed my position on certain issues and one of them is what Billy Graham believes. I too was taught that God forsook His Son because God cannot look at sin etc. I also changed my position from being a pre-tribber (which I was taught early on) to a Post-tribulationist.

So by you giving me what Calvin and what Billy Graham believes has no bearing on what the wof teachers are teaching. Too me your just presenting a "smoke screen" to justify them even though you said you don't agree with them concluding they are not teaching heresy. Like I said, they are not only teaching heresy (which is bad enough) but they are teaching blasphemy. Wof teachers love to "embellish" what they say as well as tell "embellished" stories like hagin who has more than once been caught lying. And thank you for your kind words regarding my miltary service. ;EEK:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Well THATS a good point...they ARENT in hell!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You are judging a movement by gossip. I saw nothing in anyone's post nor is there anything in mine, where you would be able to label us in this coarse way.

Its not my way to be looking for Satan in every stream of believers. Am looking for unity of spirit in fellowship. None of us have all of God, and none of us has doctrine perfect. It would be great if we did, but would we learn love?

Are we learning to love one another with imperfections? Imperfections that we all have. And to treat each other with respect?

You missed it in one of the threads. It was a compilation of WOF teachers -clips- of them talking about hell and when Jesus died.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

You are judging a movement by gossip. I saw nothing in anyone's post nor is there anything in mine, where you would be able to label us in this coarse way.

Its not my way to be looking for Satan in every stream of believers. Am looking for unity of spirit in fellowship. None of us have all of God, and none of us has doctrine perfect. It would be great if we did, but would we learn love?

Are we learning to love one another with imperfections? Imperfections that we all have. And to treat each other with respect?

Unity without the truth has nothing to do with love (1 Cor 13:6). Jehovah Witnesses have unity. Witches have unity. Gays in a gay bar have unity.

 

[Depleted]

by the way, you should check and note how the OT is taught by the Rabbi's. The Spiritual meanings are one of them. And Paul could be accused of the very thing you are accusing me of.

BTW, the rabbis teach differently to refute Jesus is the Messiah and God, so listening to rabbis is as helpful as listening to WoFers -- not.

 

[bluto]

You are judging a movement by gossip. I saw nothing in anyone's post nor is there anything in mine, where you would be able to label us in this coarse way.

Its not my way to be looking for Satan in every stream of believers. Am looking for unity of spirit in fellowship. None of us have all of God, and none of us has doctrine perfect. It would be great if we did, but would we learn love?

Are we learning to love one another with imperfections? Imperfections that we all have. And to treat each other with respect?

Horse Hockey stones. No one is judging by "gossip" but rather judging what they say by their own words and comparing it to what the Bible actually teaches. In short, your claim is false that we are gossiping. Check this out and you tell me if this is gossip. Did Jesus go to HELL for your Salvation

Secondly, and speaking of judging have you read Matthew 7:15-23? Jesus said to beware of false prophet who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. vs16, you will know them by their fruits etc. So the site I just gave you can you please tell where is the good fruit from someone who is teaching that Jesus took on Satans's nature and Satan tortured Jesus Christ in hell resulting in Jesus having to be born again in hell? Come on, what is fruitfull about that stones?

The Apostle Paul backs up what Jesus said at Acts 20:27-31 where he says to beware of wolves in sheeps clothing and how Paul warned them with tears to beware of these workers of darkness. And do you want to know the "kicker" in all of this? Read Ezekiel 3:18,19, "When I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; and you DO NOT WARN him or SPEAK OUT TO WARN the wicked from his wicked way THAT HE MAY LIVE, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, BUT HIS BLOOD I WILL REQUIRE AT YOUR HAND." Vs19, Yet if you have warned the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself." In other words, you have done your duty.

This brings me back to Matthew 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of the Father who is in heaven. vs22, Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miricles? Vs23, Then I will declare to them (which I personally consider the four most lethal words in the Bible) "I NEVER KNEW YOU." Depart from Me you who practice lawlessness." I suggest you also read 2 Peter 2:1-3. In short, if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Horse Hockey stones. No one is judging by "gossip" but rather judging what they say by their own words and comparing it to what the Bible actually teaches. In short, your claim is false that we are gossiping. Check this out and you tell me if this is gossip. Did Jesus go to HELL for your Salvation

Secondly, and speaking of judging have you read Matthew 7:15-23? Jesus said to beware of false prophet who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. vs16, you will know them by their fruits etc. So the site I just gave you can you please tell where is the good fruit from someone who is teaching that Jesus took on Satans's nature and Satan tortured Jesus Christ in hell resulting in Jesus having to be born again in hell? Come on, what is fruitfull about that stones?

The Apostle Paul backs up what Jesus said at Acts 20:27-31 where he says to beware of wolves in sheeps clothing and how Paul warned them with tears to beware of these workers of darkness. And do you want to know the "kicker" in all of this? Read Ezekiel 3:18,19, "When I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; and you DO NOT WARN him or SPEAK OUT TO WARN the wicked from his wicked way THAT HE MAY LIVE, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, BUT HIS BLOOD I WILL REQUIRE AT YOUR HAND." Vs19, Yet if you have warned the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself." In other words, you have done your duty.

This brings me back to Matthew 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of the Father who is in heaven. vs22, Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miricles? Vs23, Then I will declare to them (which I personally consider the four most lethal words in the Bible) "I NEVER KNEW YOU." Depart from Me you who practice lawlessness." I suggest you also read 2 Peter 2:1-3. In short, if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Reps for you. Definitely.
Is Horse Hockey Stones anything like like Rock Paper Scissors...?

 

[stonesoffire]

BTW, the rabbis teach differently to refute Jesus is the Messiah and God, so listening to rabbis is as helpful as listening to WoFers -- not.

I missed this but have been busy this weekend. No all Rabbi's are anti Jesus. In fact Jesus has even appeared to some and revealed Himself.

But, that wasn't the point that I was making. There are several ways that the Rabbi's look at scripture.


Torah is G‑d's wisdom. Intellect, by its very nature, allows for – and indeed demands – different avenues of understanding; how much more so when dealing with the infinite wisdom of the Infinite G‑d.

Our sages tell us that Torah can be interpreted in four different general ways: peshat, remez, drush and sod.

1) Peshat is the simple interpretation of the Torah. When the verse says (Genesis 1:1) that "In the beginning G‑d created the Heaven and Earth," it means exactly what it seems to mean, in a very literal sense.

Within these four methods of understanding Torah, there exist countless possible avenues of understanding2) Remez is the different hints and allusions which are contained within the Torah. One of the methodologies the Torah employs to make these hints is gematryia, the numerical value of the letters of the Hebrew alphabet. For example, the gematriya of "Bereshit bara" ("In the beginning He created)" is the same as "b'Rosh Hashanah nivra ha'olam" (on Rosh Hashanah the world was created)!"
Bereshit bara and b'Rosh Hashanah nivra are both 1116.

3) Drush (or Midrash) expounds upon the deeper meaning of the verse. The Hebrew word for "In the beginning" is bereshit. The midrash tells us that this word can be split into two words—b reshit. The Torah is telling us that the world was created for two ("b") "reshit"s ("firsts")—the Jews and the Torah. Although this is not the simple interpretation of the word, nevertheless it is a true and valid way of understanding the Torah.
4) Sod (secret) is the esoteric, mystical part of Torah. The Tikkunei Zohar (a book which gives seventy (!) different esoteric explanations for the word bereshit) explains that the word bereshit can also be split into "bara shis" (created [with] six). This is because the world was created through G‑d's six emotional powers: kindness, severity, beauty, victory, splendor and foundation.

The things that Holy Spirit teaches would be the sod. This is scriptural by the way.


from chabad.org


People seem to forget the scriptures were written by Jews.