Romans 8 anyone?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
A

Ariel82

Guest
By Dr. J.M. Strawn and oldhermit
Amplification, Part one

II. Amplification, 18-39
“For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.”
Verses 18-39 deal with the work of the Holy Spirit in the earth and the method he employs to achieve his purposes. We are going to examine this idea of amplification in two parts. The first part deals with the amplification of comprehension, and the second will deal with the amplification of the life situation.
A. Amplification of Comprehension
Part of the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the Christian is to amplify our comprehension of everything in our field of experience. The Holy Spirit builds up an amplified understanding of our day to day existence. This amplification of understanding is of course the reason the Bible was given to us in the first place. To live a Christian life, to be a people of true faith means that our understanding of life, our compression of life, has to be founded on something beyond mere carnal interpretation of our experiences. In these verses the Holy Spirit amplifies our comprehension of at least six things.

1. The Holy Spirit amplifies our understanding of our present sufferings.
“Our present sufferings are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.” 18
Human suffering is not an abstract, it is real, it is difficult, and the one thing of which we can be absolutely certain is that there will be more of it. Suffering is simply a part of corporeal existence. It does not matter on which side of the belief spectrum one stands, all experience suffering at some point in life. The difference between the Christian and the world is the way in which suffering is perceived.

The Holy Spirit tells us that such experiences are punctuated. This means that our experiences are controlled by the Lord and they will eventually come to an end. Therefore, nothing is out of control. No experience of suffering is beyond redemption, and our suffering does not go unnoticed by the Lord (The death of Stephen). For those of the world, suffering is something that must simply be endured; and at the end of all their suffering, there is more suffering.

For
the Christian
, suffering carries reward. Suffering has no basis of comparison with what awaits us when the suffering is done. No matter what we may suffer in this life, no matter how difficult or how bitter our experiences may be, they “are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.” That may be a hard thing to remember when we are up to our eyeballs in suffering but consider the sufferings of Paul, the same man who made this statement.
2. The Holy Spirit amplifies our understanding of the state of creation, 19-23.
“For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.”

a. Paul is rehearing the present state of creation. He says that all creation is waiting in expectation for something. Paul says that the universe and everything in it, that is everything confined to the natural realm, is tied to the state of the sons of God. That is interesting because this recognizes man as the superior and dominate figure of creation. The welfare of creation is dependent upon man and his relation to the Creator. All of creation waits in expectation for God to reveal the sons of God. We are not given any insight about what precisely is implied in all this.
b. Paul says that all of creation exists in a condition of frustration, “For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.” 20-21.

* The word here for futility is Ματαιότης which means vanity, emptiness, purposelessness, ineffectiveness. In other words, nature has been rendered unable to fulfill its designed purpose, and this is no fault of the natural world.
* The creation is still waiting to be “set free from its slavery and corruption.”
* How does all of creation “groan and suffer” like a living thing?
From the Benson Commentary, Benson makes the following observation.
> All the hosts of heaven give light by which man works his wickedness.
> The fruits of the earth are sacrificed to man's passions for luxury, intemperance, avarice, gluttony, and every sinful indulgence.
> The earth is ransacked for materials from which we build weapons of war and instruments of murder and violence.
> The animal world is subject to pain and death because of man’s sin, and their sufferings are increased by man's cruelty, and inhuman treatment.
> Everything is in an unnatural state. Everything is turned into vexation and bitterness — Scott. (end quote).

There is nothing in creation that man has not perverted. Man has even turned everything in creation into objects of worship. Nothing in creation is as God intended it. This is the state of corruption and futility in which creation presently exists and over which creation has no control.
* What are the “pains of child birth?” Whatever these are, Paul says this is part of the present state – “until now.”
Creation has been subjected to futility through no fault of its own. Creation is here personified as an innocent victim. Unlike man, creation took no active part in being subjected to futility. This was the act of another – God, and creation passively suffers the results of sin. When man sinned, everything changed. Man's relation with God changed and so did his relation to creation. As a result, death became part of the earthly experience. Not just for man but for the rest of creation as well.

We are tuned to believe that death is natural. I suppose this makes it easier for the world to rationalize and justify euthanizing the elderly and the infirmed, but the truth is that death is not natural. Death is an imposed penalty upon creation by the Lord; but, freedom from death and corruption is coming. Presently, everything in creation is still chained to the reality of death and decay. This is why everything in the universe dies, wears out, and winds down.

c. But… creation can be relieved of this constant drain by being, “set free from its slavery to corruption (Is man the enslaver?) into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.” Now, I do not pretend to understand what is involved in this or how creation is to be affected or benefited by this liberation. I don’t understand what impact the glorification of the children of God could possibly have on creation. I don’t know how this relates to the eventual destruction of creation which by all accounts occurs at the resurrection. One thing we do know is that everything on earth dies because of us; but, Paul says that one day, death, corruption, and decay will be no more and that creation waits in expectation of that day.
d. The universe “groans” with incompleteness, 22-23.
“For we know…” Paul takes for granted here a particular area of common knowledge about the state of creation. Apparently, Paul assumes our knowledge of these things. What do we know and how do we know it? Paul says, “that all creation (I take this to be non-exclusionary) groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also, we ourselves (This is NOT non-exclusionary. This is specific. It is in contrast to the whole creation. Paul singles Christians out from the rest of creation here.), having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.”

Paul presents a contrast – “but ALSO we ourselves....” This is in contrast to the creation. We ALSO “groan within ourselves.” We ALSO “wait eagerly for our adoption as sons.” Creation waits for that too. Creation groans and waits to be “set free from its slavery and corruption.” Unlike us, creation is still enslaved to corruption. Freedom from this cannot be realized until the revelation of the “glory of the children of God.” Whatever that means.

WE TOO groan and wait eagerly for the completion of our adoption. This is the reversal of the edict of death, not just for us but for all of creation. This tells us that we, along with the rest of creation, groan together in a state of expectation waiting for something that is yet unrealized. Just as creation awaits being “set free from its slavery to corruption.” We too are waiting for “our adoption as sons.” The completion of this can only be realized in the resurrection which is the “redemption of our bodies,” 23. This apparently results in two things – the liberation of creation from corruption and futility, and our final glorification.

The relationship with God that man lost in Adam has already been restored in Christ. This is not true of creation. What we still look forward is the resurrection. What creation looks forward to is liberation from corruption. So, for us, and for all of creation, everything is moving toward the better in spite of the sufferings of this world. The Holy Spirit is teaching us that all things will be put right in the end. That is the bedrock of our hope. We wait here in our present suffering in hope, not in desperation.

Awesome.

These words jump out to me..

"the truth is that death is not natural. Death is an imposed penalty upon creation by the Lord; but, freedom from death and corruption is coming. "

Death is NOT natural.


A. Amplification of Comprehension
1. Our suffering
2. Creation




Thank God for His wisdom.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
By Dr. J.M. Strawn and oldhermit
Amplification, Part two


3. The Holy Spirit gives us an amplified understanding of our relation to God, to the universe, and to eternal reality. We are being helped along in this by the Holy Spirit, 26-27.
“In the same way, the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.”

Paul does not qualify the nature of our weakness. This is any weakness, weakness in comprehension, weakness in understanding, weakness in suffering, or weakness in our prayers. What does that mean then for the link between the prayer of faith and the intercession of the Holy Spirit? This means that our prayers are certain to be answered. The Holy Spirit fills the gap in every human frailty and inadequacy, and all of this is done for us in accordance with the will of God, “and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.”

The Holy Spirit's intercession on our behalf amplifies all attempts of human expression and the inability of human language to come before God with our petitions. The limitations of human language are simply not adequate to express the extent of our needs in the midst of our weaknesses. The fact that the Holy Spirit intercedes on our behalf with “groanings too deep for words” should give us confidence in spite of all our frailties that God hears and responds to the prayers of the righteous at the behest of the Holy Spirit.
4. The Holy Spirit also amplifies our understanding of human circumstances and situations. This is where we find the true meaning of our experiences, 28.
“And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.”

We learn from the Holy Spirit that God is working in all things for the good of those that love him. I think this verse is so often misrepresented. This verse does not say that all things work together for our good. It says that, God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God.” There is something we need to understand. Our experiences may not be sent from the Lord, they be sent from the Evil One but, this does not restrict God’s control of the situation. Our benefactor of good is not in the situation, it is in God who controls the situation for our benefit. This does not mean that it is no longer a bad situation, in fact it may even get worse. What it means is that no matter the situation, no matter the severity of the situation, God is doing good for us even in the midst of the situation.

So, how do we define what the good is? How do we find the good in the situation? Are we supposed to look for the good in the situation? This assumes that the “good” is always going to be knowable and comprehendible. It also assumes that the “good” is somehow subjective, that it is always discernable for human interpretation. We need to understand that an amplified comprehension of the situation tells us that “the good” is defined by the Lord, not by us, and not by the situation. This idea certainly turns contemporary situation ethics on its head. So much for any arguments for abortion, euthanasia, and same sex marriage. What is right and good is determined by the Lord and not by me or the situation. Sometimes the good may never even be revealed to us. We may never understand the good that God has wrought for us in a bad situation. In fact, the good itself may even be painful and unpleasant. Is this not the nature of the maturing process? None-the-less, we can be confident that God does “cause all things to work together for good to those who love God.”
5. Amplified comprehension carries us beyond any mere psychological understanding of who we are, 29.
Man is not just the product of a set of supposed random cause to effect natural events that we call the evolutionary process. This is nothing but foolishness. Our presence on this earth and our relationship to the Creator is a matter of the eternal will of God.

a. “For those whom He foreknew,”
This makes us the subject of eternal foreknowledge. We were in the mind of God before time began. This means that time and everything in it exists for the benefit of those whom God foreknew. The language expresses not individuals but a collective.
b. “He also predestined.”
We are embedded in the eternal arrangement of divine fellowship. This is the purpose for our existence in this world. To what then were we predestined?

* Conformity, To be conformed to the image of his Son.” 29.
* First-born status, “that we might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

c. “He also called.”
This does not say that God only called those whom he foreknew. This is not an exclusionary act. The call is not just some mysterious nebulous feeling or irresistible desire that God imposes on the hearts of a select few. The call is the preaching of the gospel. Everyone who has ever heard the gospel preached has been called. 2Thesselonians 2:14, “It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” The call is not limited to only a select and predetermined few, and not everyone who is called is chosen. Matthew 22:14, “Many are called but few (of those who are called) are chosen.” The invitation from the Lord goes out to all, and all who are willing are encouraged to “come.” Revelation 22:17-19, “The Spirit and the bride say, 'Come!' And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.” This is an open invasion to all. God is actively pursuing the willing. In so doing, he has called those whom he foreknew. In time, here on the earth, and while up to our necks in experiences, both good and bad, God has called us to this hope.
d. “These whom He called, He also justified;”
We stand in accredited righteousness, free from sin. As Paul says in 2Corinthians 5:21, “That we might become the righteousness of God in him.”
e. “These whom He justified, He also glorified.”
We are to be distinguished from those who rejected the amplified comprehension. Those who wish to live according to this world forfeit glorification by God for ephemeral concerns. This certainly does not exclude members of the body. We are certainly not perfect but, the Holy Spirit has amplified our understanding of who we are and what we are about. We now exist, “To be conformed to the image of his Son that we might be the firstborn among many brethren.” Dead or alive, we are part of the eternal family of God and we will remain so even when this creation is assigned to destruction.

6. The Holy Spirit amplifies our understanding of our indomitable position, 31-39.
“What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written, 'For your sake we are being put to death all day long; we were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.' But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

The answer to Paul’s query is ‘NOTHING!’ Paul then begins to exhaust all possibilities of meaningful opposition against us. Nothing can stand against us. If death cannot defeat us then certainly nothing else stands a chance. If the resurrection of Jesus demonstrated anything, it demonstrated this fact. This does not mean we will not have troubles, or hardships, or famine, or sword, or nakedness, or persecution, or danger. What it means is that if God is working in the midst of these things for our good, then we cannot be overwhelmed by these things, nor can they overwhelm and destroy our relationship with the Lord.

Amplified comprehension about all of these things stands as a wall of protection in the midst of unwanted experiences, and we are assured that these things will come. Having to endure bitter experiences does not mean the Lord has abandoned us. The Lord can use these experiences to shake us till our teeth rattle and never explain why. The why is simply none of our business. Here, Paul quotes Psalms 44:22 where the psalmist says, “For your sake, we face death all day long. We are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” (This was a hard lesson learned by Job as well.) In Psalm 44, we see that God upholds his people one minute, giving them victory over their enemies, and the next moment, he puts his people in harms way and subjects them to rank injustice from those of the world like a bunch of sheep being led to the slaughter, and we find this difficult to reconcile. The key phrase in this passage is “For Your sake.” Amplified comprehension of suffering teaches us that our suffering is not about us, it is about God and his purposes, and we are not required to know why. What we are required to know is that God has not abandoned us in these times and that we can trust the Lord, even when such experiences may claim our lives, or the lives of those we love.

Amplified comprehension promotes conviction and our conviction must outstrip our experiences. Paul says, “I am convinced….” If a man like Paul who suffered so many things in the flesh was able to hold such conviction in his amplified comprehension of suffering, then what excuse can I possibly offer when I allow my meager experiences with suffering to draw me away from the Lord?
Interesting... Will have to pray about it all.

****
3. The Holy Spirit gives us an amplified understanding of our relation to God, to the universe, and to eternal reality.

4. The Holy Spirit also amplifies our understanding of human circumstances and situations. This is where we find the true meaning of our experiences

5. Amplified comprehension carries us beyond any mere psychological understanding of who we are,

6. The Holy Spirit amplifies our understanding of our indomitable position,

****
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
Marc,

Walking in the Spirit does not simply "happen". Of course it is a deliberate act on our part, since Christians are told to MORTIFY THE FLESH (deny the flesh and its fleshly lusts). That is an act of the will. That is also the meaning of "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling". Of course God works in us, but Christians can and do resist the Holy Spirit.

As you will note in my post above, this important teaching of walking in the Spirit has been deliberately omitted in the modern versions.
We both believe that believers are expected to live moral lives. Phil 2:13
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
KJV

tells me that God wants ALL the credit for makng that happen.

Your post tells me that YOU want credit for making that happen

I have no problem giving God all the credit and praise!
 
Mar 23, 2016
6,732
1,630
113
We both believe that believers are expected to live moral lives. Phil 2:13
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
KJV

tells me that God wants ALL the credit for makng that happen.

Your post tells me that YOU want credit for making that happen

I have no problem giving God all the credit and praise!
thought about these verses when I read your post:

2 Corinthians 4:

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.