Jesus: Both Son and Father?

MattG · Mar 10, 2018

Brother Bluto,

Genesis 1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, “I am El-Shaddai—‘God Almighty.’ Serve me faithfully and live a blameless life. 2 I will make a covenant with you, by which I will guarantee to give you countless descendants.”
3 At this, Abram fell face down on the ground. Then God said to him, 4 “This is my covenant with you: I will make you the father of a multitude of nations! 5 What’s more, I am changing your name. It will no longer be Abram. Instead, you will be called Abraham,[a] for you will be the father of many nations.6 I will make you extremely fruitful. Your descendants will become many nations, and kings will be among them!

Did Abram see Him, or just appear and after hearing Him, Abram fell face down on the ground and Listened to what God had said...

If you say He saw Him, I don't see where it says He did, Just says Appeared, but Did He really See Him?

Because if He did He would have died right?

Your question is did you know that the Lord Jesus Christ was seen psychally before He ever became manifested?

Then why Didn't Moses see the Lord Jesus Christ instead of a burning bush?

I disagree with what you are saying there, and I don't think it can be proven that the Lord Jesus Christ was the Lord Jesus Christ before the Word ever manifested in the Flesh then named Jesus Christ.

In the bible anytime it says LORD - means Jehovah, when it says Lord means The Lord Jesus Christ.

I will tell you right now the "angel" of the Lord is "NOT" an angel like Michael or Gabriel; Fair enough.

MattG · Mar 10, 2018

And in through out the whole old testament the word LORD is used through out the entire scripture.

bluto · Mar 10, 2018

MattG said:

Abraham actually say Him with his physical eyes. Look at Genesis 17:22, "And when He/God finished talking with him, God went up from Abraham." That is God went straight up due North. When God appears to people He will say how. Look at Genesis 15:1, After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision." Sometimes God will say, He appeared to Abraham in a dream etc."

The key to all of this is the Hebrew word "malak" which like I said can mean a real angel of can mean simply messenger. Here is an excellent example of how the word is used. Malachi 3:1, "Behold I am going to send MY "malak/angel/messenger," and he will clear the way before Me. (The "Me" here is God), And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddengly come to His temple; and the "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming, says the Lord of hosts."

This one verse is just loaded with information. First of all who do you think is the messenger or the Lord that will clear His way? It's none other than John the Baptist. (Mark 1:1-4). Who is the one that will come to His temple? It is Jesus Christ. Who is the "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant in whom we will delight? It is none other than Jesus Christ as the angel of the Lord. This can be seen at Genesis 17:3-4. It can also be seen at Genesis 22 which is the most important chapter (I personally believe) depicting the angel of the Lord. Please read the whole chapter.

And btw, this is what Genesis 18:1 says, "Now the Lord appeared to him/Abraham by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. Read the next 5 verses and you will discover this is a physical visit by the Lord. Are you convinced now? If not wait till I get to Genesis 22 and to Exodus 2 and who appeared in the burning bush.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

MattG · Mar 10, 2018

Thanks for sharing all you have with me bluto my friend in Christ Jesus. I hope you have a great rest of the day.

prove-all · Mar 10, 2018

MattG said:

The Comma Johanneum, also called the Johannine Comma or the Heavenly Witnesses,
is a comma (a short clause) found in some manuscripts of the First Epistle of John[1] at 5:7–8.

The scholarly consensus is that that passage is [a Latin corruption] that entered the Greek
manuscript tradition in some subsequent copies.[1] The Comma and the question of its
authenticity have particular bearing on the development of the theological doctrine of the Trinity

so someone added scripture above at 1 John 5:7, it should not be used as God breathed,
below would be A correct witness of the two.

John 8:18 (KJV)
1] I am one that bear witness of myself,
2] and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

What is the Holy Spirit?

-the begetting agent that comes from God, the Holy Spirit is the earnest or
down payment, of our salvation (Ephesians 1:14; Romans 8:16).

The Holy Spirit is the very [power of God], who gives to who ever he wants.

35And the angel answered and said unto her, (The Holy Ghost) shall come upon thee,
and (the power of the Highest) shall overshadow thee: therefore also
that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called (the Son of God).

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart
that God[the father] has raised Him[Christ] from the dead, [you will be saved].

MarcR · Mar 10, 2018

prove-all said:

The Father, and the Holy Spirit are unquestionably not people; but I will argue that they are both, in a sense, persons.

We are told Gen 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
KJV

yet, if I look in a mirror and claim to see God; I am either blaspheming or very confused.

That raises the question: In what way are we in the image of God.

I think that the 3 attributes that we share with God: intellect, will, and emotions constitute the essence of personhood.

Deade · Mar 10, 2018

MarcR said:

Well MarcR, I would use a different definition of the Holy Spirit. How can we call something that is everywhere at once; causes the animals and plants to procreate; and sustain all that a person? Isn't it more like a life force that makes God what He is. Remember it was the Nicene Creed when they started calling the HS a person. That council was called together by a non-Christian: Constantine. I think we do a disservice to the HS by labeling it in such a way. I myself, cannot imagine anything like the HS in my mind. My finite thinking cannot define the infinite. Think about it, it's all I ask.

bluto · Mar 10, 2018

Deade said:

Well deade we already know that Jesus Christ is a person and He can do all the things the Holy Spirit can do. Just read John 1:32, Colossians 1:16 and other verses I could provide. And here is a sight that qualifies why the Holy Spirit is a person. It's the JW's that say the Holy Spirit is an active force. https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/how-do-we-know-the-holy-spirit-is-a-person/

And regarding your statement about the Nicene Creeds, do you know what the purpose of the creeds are? For one they were written to correct various heresies. One of those heresies was "Arianism" which btw is what Jw's are. Creeds also affirm essential Christian or Bible truths. In fact, 1 Corinthians 15:3,4 is a creed and so is 1 Timothy 2:5-6.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

prove-all · Mar 10, 2018

MarcR said:

John 1:1-4: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was [with] God,
and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

Two Personages are revealed in this earliest account in the Bible.
There is no mention of the Holy Spirit here!

All things were made by him [the Word]; and without him was not any thing
made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.”

Before the angels were created, before the universe or man were created,
God and the Word existed. Two Personages where together for ever.

Ephesians 3:9 says, “…God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.”
That God is the Creator, but He created all things through the Word,
or Spokesman, the one who later became Jesus Christ.

Genesis 1:1: “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
The Hebrew word translated ‘God’ is Elohim—a noun or name,
plural in form, but normally singular in grammatical usage.

“And God [Elohim] said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…”
God said, “Let us”... after our likeness…”—more than one.

After Adam rebelled against God, notice what Elohim said in Genesis 3:22:
“And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us..

Here, God not only says “us,” He says “one of us”! One of the “us”
was God the Father and the other one of the “us” was the Word.

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory,
the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

His life was worth more than all other human beings combined.
“The Word, then, is a Personage who was made flesh—begotten by God,
who through this later begettal became His Father, and the Word became his Son.

Yet at that prehistoric time of the first verse of John 1, the Word was not (yet)
the Son of God. He divested himself of His glory as a spirit divinity to be
begotten as a human person. He was made God’s Son, through being begotten
or sired by God and born of the virgin Mary.

God and the Word, became now the Father and Son

When the Word was “made flesh,” He became the Son! At this point, He was
the begotten Son of God, not yet born. Luke 1:35: “…that holy thing which shall
be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” When the Word became the Son,
then obviously, God became the Father!

The word “son” is used 422 times in the New Testament alone. In at least half of those
instances, the word is referring to Jesus Christ—the Son of God the Father. The word
“father” is used 352 times in the New Testament and, in over 250 cases, it refers to
God the Father. The names ‘Father’ and ‘Son’ do indicate a family relationship.

In Hebrews 7:3 it refers to the One who became Jesus Christ as being
“[w]ithout father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of
days, nor end of life.…” The Word lived in harmony [with] God for all eternity.

Neither of them had a beginning.
“…but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.”

The Word was made flesh (John 1:14). In the flesh, Jesus was also God. He was God
converted to flesh (1?Timothy 3:16). Hebrews 2:14 says, “Forasmuch then as the children
are partakers of flesh and blood, he [Christ] also himself likewise took part of the same;
that through death he might destroy annul him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.”

When Jesus died, He was in the grave three days and three nights (Matthew 12:40)
the second person of the Godhead—Emmanuel—God with us—God made human
flesh—was dead!” that Christ had given up His immortal life inherent in divine glory
and been converted into human mortality for the purpose of death.

the same God who made the Word flesh also raised Jesus Christ from the dead!

prove-all · Mar 10, 2018

That man was made after the God-kind! We were made in God’s likeness.

In other words, we look like God. And more importantly, we were made in His image,
which means God’s ultimate purpose is to build His character in us.

We know God is spirit (John 4:24) and we cannot see Him yet. But when we are resurrected
as spirit we will see God as He is and find that He very definitely has a body! For an actual
description of the resurrected, glorified Jesus Christ, read Revelation 1:13-16.
These verses plainly reveal that God has a body.

“Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body,
according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.”

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be:
but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”
We are now begotten sons, but it does not yet appear what we shall be.

Christ was born as a Son by a resurrection from the dead (Romans 1:4; Colossians 1:18).
And we will be born as sons by that same process!

Romans 8:17, “And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be
that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” We are children and joint-heirs
with Christ, due to inherit what He did, if we remain faithful. Paul concludes the verse by saying
we will be “glorified together.”

Paul wrote, “For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”. He
bowed to God the Father, who, according to Paul, was the actual Father of Jesus Christ. And it
is this same God, “Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.”

Revelation 19:7 says, “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him:
for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.”

“For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the
saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their
own husbands in every thing” (Ephesians 5:23-24).

The Church is to be made ready for this marriage. For what reason? “That he might present
it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should
be holy and without blemish”

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Jesus: Both Son and Father?

MattG

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bluto

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prove-all

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MarcR

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Deade

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