Amillennialism

Noose · Mar 9, 2018

Nothing happens in the physical; all that was to be discerned in the spirit just like:

Matt 10:23When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matthew 16:28
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Bladerunner · Mar 9, 2018

garee said:

Oh, It is just a way to enable you to preach what ever it is your preaching..... So Sad?

Nehemiah6 · Mar 9, 2018

garee said:

Looks like you are dabbling in Mysticism rather than Bible truth.

Nehemiah6 · Mar 9, 2018

Ariel82 said:

Either that or a milligram of fantasy taken with a pound of salt. A prescription for delusion.

RexCA · Mar 9, 2018

This is somewhat a deluded interpretation of "amillennialism" making the claim "nothing happens in the physical. However amillennialism is the traditional understanding and was proposed by an overwhelming number of the church fathers most notably St. Augustine of Hippo, Origen of Alexandria, St. Clement of Alexandria, St. Papias of Hierapolis, and St. Justin Martyr. I would tend to agree with it any as would the Catholic Church(which I am a part of), Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Church, Church of the East, and most high church protestant denominations such as Lutherans and Anglicans and some reformed sects.

Back to the original point the doctrine itself does not teach that the millennium is fully allegory or it all takes place completely in the spiritual realm rather than here on Earth. Rather the teaching behind it is that the concept of the 1000 years is an allegory for the age of the church which started at Ascension(however the church itself was founded on Pentecost) and will end with the Last Judgement. The prophecies as to what will happen during the 1000 years however such as the reign of Christ, the Antichrist and others are believed to take place both in the physical and spiritual realm. The reign of Christ for example would be interpreted to mean the unveiling of the Godhood of Jesus and his eternal reign as king of the universe, in this understanding of the end times the rapture is rejected however.

On the other hand not sure why some posters are claiming that this is "mysticism" and "mysticism" should be avoided the response to this is of course this is mystical; mystical is synonymous for spiritual not sure who claimed that Christianity should be opposed to any sort of mysticism any sort of prophecy in a way is a form of mysticism what Christianity is opposed to is paganism not mysticism this would however not be pagan at all.

prove-all · Mar 9, 2018

Ariel82 said:

You are right [You can't destroy a temple that has not been rebuilt].
I believe there will not be a third temple now, but will be one after Christ returns to Earth.

But I believe you are wrong about the Roman barracks and current Wailing Wall.

the Temple Mount today was actually a Roman building located
at the edge, but outside, of ancient Jerusalem.
-

the accounts of the destruction of Jerusalem from several eyewitnesses.

Josephus, a historian-priest who recorded the destruction of the temple
and the city in great detail.

Titus, the Roman general who oversaw the final ruin of Jerusalem, as well
as Eleazar, a historianand leader of the last remnant of the Jewish resistance
at Masada. These eyewitnesses give a different picture of where the temple
was located compared to what people believe today.

Josephus records that Caesar gave orders to the Romans to “demolish the
entire city and temple.” He and Titus wrote that Jerusalem was completely
flattened. Josephus wrote: “t was so thoroughly laid even with the ground
by those that dug it upto the foundation, that there was left nothing to make
those that came thither believe it [Jerusalem] had ever been inhabited. …

“For the war had laid all signs of beauty quite waste. Nor if anyone that had
known the place before, had come on a sudden to it now, would he have known
it again. But though he [a foreigner] were at the city itself, yet would he have
inquired for [its whereabouts].”

If the temple, along with all of Jerusalem, was completely destroyed, then
the massive walls of the so-called Temple Mount should not be standing.

If Josephus had been so wrong in these statements, as modern scholars
believe, he would have been thoroughly discredited anciently.
-

“And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came
to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.And Jesus said unto them,
See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here
one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” (Matthew 24:1-2).

Christ was talking about the temple and every single one of the temple
buildings. Christ was not discussing the end time in the first two verses.

the Greek word Jesus used to describe the temple and buildings was heiron.
That means the entire temple, including its exterior buildings and walls.”

Christ prophesied that the entire temple, including its exterior buildings
and walls, would be destroyed in the first century!

Vincent’s New Testament Word Studies says this about heiron:

“The word temple, heiron (literally, ‘sacred place’), signifies the whole compass
of the sacred enclosure, with its porticoes, courts and other subordinate buildings,
and should be carefully distinguished from the other word, naos, also rendered
‘temple,’ which means the temple itself—the ‘holy place’ and the ‘holy of holies.’”

Here is Mark’s account of this conversation: “And as he went out of the temple
[heiron], one of his disciples saith untohim, Master, see what manner of stones
and what buildings are here!” (Mark 13:1). [ pluralize building]

-

“And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there
shall not be left onestone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” (verse 2).

Mark 13:1-2 are talking about the a.d. 70 destruction. Christ looked directly at
the temple and the temple buildings when He gave this prophecy and said they
would be left without a single stone upon another. None of those buildings are
standing today!

As Christ wept over Jerusalem (Luke 19:41), He prophesied that the city would
be completely destroyed.“For the days shall come upon thee [Jerusalem], that
thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep
thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children
within thee; and they shallnot leave in thee one stone upon another …” (v43-44).

in the prophecies of Jesus, not only the stones that made up the temple and its
OUTER walls were to be torn down, but He also included within that destruction
the stones that comprised the totality of the city of Jerusalem.

Since the temple and all its walls were destroyed, what then is the edifice we
call the Temple Mount today? Why are those massive walls still standing?

Eleazar, the Jewish resistance leader, wrote, “Where is this city that was
believed to have God Himself inhabiting therein? It is now demolished to
the very foundations, and hath nothing left but that monument of it preserved,
I mean the camp of those [Romans] that hath destroyed it, which [camp] still
dwells upon its ruins ….”

Eleazar said the only thing unscathed from the war and still standing was
a facility located just beyond the border of ancient Jerusalem.

“That facility known as the Haram [or what is called the Temple Mount] was
officiallyreckoned as being beyond and outside the limits of Jewish Jerusalem.

That’s where the Dome of the Rock is today. It was not reckoned as being
part of the municipality of Jerusalem.”

Josephus said the Romans set fire to the whole city, demolishing even the walls.
Much of the destruction of the city of Jerusalem came after the war had ceased.

In regard to the total destruction of the temple and all its outer buildings,
a Hebrew version of Josephus (known as Josippon) states that when the inner
temple was set to the flames by the Romans, the Jewsknew their end was near.
So, to prevent the Romans from desecrating the temple by erecting another
‘abomination of desolation’like that of Antiochus Epiphanes, the Jews systematically
tore down all the inner temple and all its outer buildingsand appurtenances in order
to leave nothing of the former temple for anyone to pollute.”

Here is what the history of Josippon states: “So the flames destroyed the holy
of holies. And when the [Jewish] leaders of the rebels and their followers who
were still in the city [of Jerusalem] saw that the holy of holies had been burned,
they burned the rest of the temple together with every mansion in Jerusalem,
so that the Romans should not rule over them. And they also burned down the
rest of the temple buildings,saying: ‘Now that the holy of holies has been
burned, why go on living? Why leave house or building?’”

“I heard this angel saying to the angels who held the torches, ‘Now destroy
the walls [of the temple and Jerusalem] and overthrow them to their foundations
so that the enemies [the Romans] do not boast and say, “We have overthrown
the wall of Zion and we have burnt down the place of the mighty God.”’”

the Jews themselves helped destroy the temple so that it not be polluted
is reflected in an early Jewish work called Second Baruch.

“f those rectangular walls of the Haram are those which surrounded the
Temple Mount, as we are informed by all authorities today, why did Josephus
and Titus leave out any mention about this magnificent Haram structure?
That is, where the Dome of the Rock is, and the Wailing Wall.

“The temple was especially vulnerable because the soldiers knew that was the
central treasury of the nation. Such great quantities of gold were discovered in
the ruins of Jerusalem in the sweep for riches that Josephus said the price of
that metal in the eastern empire plummeted to half its former value. …

Indeed, after an absence of about four months, Titus returned to Jerusalem
from Antioch and once again viewed the ruined city. Jerusalem was now turned
upside down without a stone left in place (just as Jesus said). Josephus states
what Titus saw. … ‘Yet there was no small quantity of the riches that had been
in that city still found among the ruins, a great deal of which the Romans dug up .’”

Even though people believe almost unanimously today that the Wailing Wall
is part of that former temple, before the 16th century “there was not a Jew in
the world who paid the slightest respect to that western Wailing Wall,”

“the worshipers of the Wailing Wall are directing their present devotions
and venerations to a Roman edifice that their ancestors in Herod’s time
held in utter contempt.”

RexCA · Mar 9, 2018

My apologies to the OP I read a different post assuming it to be from the OP however most on here seem to have an incorrect understanding of what amillennialism is the one thing I would disagree with the OP on is the orthodoxy of the reformations history tells us such a schismatic event was clearly heterodox

Ariel82 · Mar 10, 2018

RexCA said:

Could you clarify? So you believe the Amil position orthodox or heterodox?

I don't believe Noose is in the Amil camp but I could be wrong.

I agree that MOST don't understand the Amil position but just have scarecrow set up to torch so they can use them as a platform into talking about their own eschatology positions.

Ariel82 · Mar 10, 2018

Antonia Fortress - First Century Jerusalem - Bible History Online

While overlooking Jerusalem, the Antonia Fortress was garrisoned with 600 Roman soldiers, who watched over the Temple courts in order to preserve order. The Bible spoke about the Antonia Fortress as a barracks (Acts 21:37), and it was here that Paul gave an address to the people (22:1-21).

******

I believe it was located outside Jerusalem....since its Roman...not considered part of the city.

Like our modern day embassy is considered "American soil" yet is in Tel Ev, Israel

The main idea is that the temple was destroyed in 70 AD as Jesus predicted it would be.

Ariel82 · Mar 10, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

I am deeply disappointed in you. I thought you had more Christian maturity and love than this.

You have no rational or logical responses, so you resort to name calling and insults?

We can talk when you stop making it personal or being so judgemental and discuss the points actually being brought forward.

Realizing that MOST of the posters in this thread don't believe Amillennialism any more that YOU do.

Therefore debating with them as you have in countless threads is futile and pointless, rude and does nothing to refute the Biblical truth of amillennialism.

All it does is display where your wisdom truly comes from.

James 3.

Noose · Mar 10, 2018

Ariel82 said:

Ok, walk me through Daniel's 70 week prophesy precisely showing all the details including birth of Christ and Abomination that causes desolate; i'd like to know how this 70AD thing fits in.

prove-all · Mar 10, 2018

Ariel82 said:

God in the bible says in...

Isaiah 29:9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken,
but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.

The next verse shows what was done

Isaiah 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep,
and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

Paul confirms the same here in Romans

Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber,
eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.

As Jesus said

Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith,
By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand;
and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

"This people's heart"

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing,
and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted,
and I should heal them.

-Then to His diciples (the remnant according to the election of grace) Jesus says,
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

-Whereas the rest are being shown as blinded...Paul himself repeats the same words
of Isaiah to the Jews in Acts 28:26-27 And Paul finishes by saying to them

Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God
is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. "They will hear it".

garee · Mar 10, 2018

It takes place in the spiritual realm here on earth as Ambassadors for Christ a kingdom of priests we are sent from a foreign land . the Bosom of Abraham or the invisible presence with God..

Hebrews 4 calls it mixing the faith that alone comes from hearing God through the scriptures .Again mixing faith in what a person does hear or see ,the temporal, to give us the unseen eternal understanding.

If we do not mix the unseen eternal in what we do see as the temporal then the parables will have no effect and men will attribute the unseen work of God to men which would be to blaspheme the holy name by which we are called.

At the preaching of the gospel the man who heard God by faith was given power of God to walk. Those who misunderstood the parable made Paul and Barnabas in gods in the likeness of men . Turning things up side down taking away God’s understanding of the parable.

And there they preached the gospel.And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us "in the likeness of men". Act 14:7

The first verse in the book of Revelation sets the prescribed manner by which we can hear God through the parables. Not only did he write it with His finger but he also signified it .hiding the spiritual understanding from natural man who does walk after the three avenues of this world that I have listed below.

1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

No such things as the age of the church that is simply an oral tradition of some men. No man can come to the father unless he enables them to come. Members of he bride of Christ has been wooed by her husband Christ beginning with Abel in whom God had grace and mercy on.. Abel is just as much part of the wife of one Christ as Timothy or any other the lively stones that makes up the unseen spiritual house . Christ is not divided

The antichrists are already here. We are reigning with Christ as to whose power we have in these earthen bodies of death .

If we are not reigning with Christ then who are we reigning with as Ambassadors ?

The antichrists, the unconverted Jews( no faith) are the ones that deny the veil is rent ,and deny the time of reformation began its work restoring the government to a previous time period before there were kings in Jerusalem

.

The second and final rapture will occur on the last day. the Son of man did the unveiling when the veil was rent.. Those that deny he came and that he will not return in the flesh are classified as antichrists.

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.1Jo 4:3

It marks the unbelieving (no faith) Jew as false prophets /antichrists.

garee · Mar 10, 2018

RexCA said:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

That would be impossible to prove , the whole book of Revelation is signified from the beginning to the end..
using the prescription found in 2 Corinthians 4:18 the temporal things seen to give us the unseen eternal spiritual understanding hid in that parable.

The key that unlocks the parables found below giving us the eternal understanding..

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Like for instance take a literal key in revelation 20 as that seen . What does it signify as to the unseen other than the gospel? The same follows other words in that parble like a literal chain .Literal chains cannot bind the spirits and principalities of this world . Its not flesh and blood we do wrestle with to begin with . Its never the corrupted flesh of a Jew against corrupted flesh of a Gentile, as if God was a respecter of persons and was served by human hands .

The literal chain represents the binding and loosening authority of the gospel .The literal word thousand represents an unknown though out the scriptures .God does not give exact dates in that way or number people , We are not of the number but of the faith, the unseen .

2Co 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of "the number", or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

The thousand years in that parable (Revelation 20) like the 1444,000 in another parable represent a unknown.We walk by faith the unseen eternal not after that seen the temporal .

Enoch987 · Mar 10, 2018

Ariel82 said:

Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are about the abomination that desolates written in Daniel.
Luke 21 is the desolation of the Temple in 70 AD. This is a green wood/dry wood of Luke 23.

What amil see as fulfillment premil see as types.
Isaiah 7, a virgin/young maiden will become pregnant to show the king Ahaz that Isaiah's prophecy is true.
In Isaiah 8, Isaiah goes into the prophetess who conceives.
The Near is the Isaiah's young maiden. The Far is the virgin Mary.

Enoch987 · Mar 10, 2018

Ariel82 said:

This is a difficult passage for premil but not so much that it can't be unpacked.
The generation that sees the abomination that desolates will see the return of the Lord.

RexCA · Mar 10, 2018

Ariel82 said:

I believe amillennialism is the only orthodox position history shows this through the church fathers my comment on heterodoxy was saying that my disagreement with you would be in regards to the reformation, I am not a protestant.

RexCA · Mar 10, 2018

my original comment before I noticed who the original poster was, was meant as a correction as to what amillennialism is I see far to many straw man arguments in this forum about things said user disagreements especially when it is anything that may smell "Catholic" in any way

Enoch987 · Mar 10, 2018

RexCA said:

St. Jerome was premil. Augustine was amil. he was paid by the emperor. A coming king that would be the King of Kings would be frowned on by the emperor.

Ahwatukee · Mar 10, 2018

Ariel82 said:

Yes, Jesus did speak the truth, but just as many do, you are misapplying "this generation."

The disciples original question was "what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?" Jesus began listing all of the signs leading up to His return. Then He says:

"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that He is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

Trees blossoming = Summer is near

When you see all these things = End of the age is near

This generation = The generation which experiences those signs

To make "this generation" the one that Jesus was speaking from would be grammatically incorrect. It would also do away with the need for all of the signs, which by the way haven't taken place yet, unless it is documented somewhere where every eye saw Jesus arriving on the clouds of heaven and sent his angels out to gather the weeds and the wheat.

Matt.24 is synonymous with Revelation 19:11-21 which is a detailed account of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which means that all of the events listed there must have also taken place as part of the signs, including the gathering of all the kings of the world and their armies at Armageddon, the capturing of the beast and the false prophet (whom we have yet to see), Satan being thrown in the Abyss, as well as all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments of God's wrath which must take place leading up to Christ returns.

"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that He is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation (the generation where those signs take place) will not pass away until all these things have happened."

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