Will Some NonChristians (Unbelievers) Get to Heaven?

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I just don't understand this thread.

The answer is so simple, if it fell out of the sky and hit one on the head, it couldn't be plainer.

If there were any other way to heaven than through Jesus, either by living well, being good, obeying the 10 commandments, believing there is a God, etc., then Jesus would not have had to come and die.
Ah, but Jesus did not come to earth to "die". He came to teach us for three and a half years to do all the things you say: live well, treat others well ... The Sermon On the Mount outlines it for us. If we do those things, it does not matter what specific beliefs we have that vary. Jesus died because they killed him. He was a radical, he said he was the son of God ... they didnt like that ... he is not a blood sacrifice.

Jesus did not come to die?

If he did not die, we would be dead in our sin with no hope would we not?
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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EVERYTHING in this post is pure heresy. Your heart is in complete darkness.

Holy Father, this young lady NEEDS revelation that can only come through You. She is dead and lost in her sin, and doesn't know it. Please have mercy on her and reveal the one True Hope she has to be saved. The acceptance of Your One True Gospel in the form of Your Blessed Son. In Jesus Name I pray.
 
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Ralph-

Guest
LaurieB said:
Jesus died because they killed him. He was a radical, he said he was the son of God ... they didnt like that ... he is not a blood sacrifice.


"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood"-Romans 3:25


"
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins"-1 John 2:2
 
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Those over in dark countries who have never heard, well some of them are good people and have light in them, they are like Romans 1 people, they believe there is a god, so that is all they got, so God will let them into heaven, that is what others here have taught me that text says. So, not all people are lost and in sin, some are already going to go to heaven when they die even as unbelievers.

Or, those who haven't heard the Gospel are safe and cannot go to hell because people only go to hell for rejecting Christ, they're not really lost in sin and on their way to hell prior to this. They're actually swell people you know. I've learned on here people only go to hell for rejecting Christ which means prior to this they're actually safe. We'll see them in heaven they say.

So, with all this new knowledge we're pulling out all missionaries so they don't endanger the souls of the innocent who haven't heard, so they will go to heaven when they die and won't get a chance to vote no for Jesus. :confused:
 

LaurieB

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2018
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This is really sad. You have been here a week and apparently learned nothing about God, His Son, and his ONLY provision for Salvation.

Please answer. You believe God allowed His Son to be unspeakably tortured, scourged, spat on, humiliated, crucified, and die, KNOWING THAT THERE WAS ANOTHER WAY FOR PEOPLE TO BE SAVED?

And you don't think God the Father finds that incredibly offensive?

Well, I can only hope you stay here long enough that the Lord will soften your heart to the Truth (yes there IS only one Truth) and you will ask Him forgiveness, repent of this horrible heresy, and receive Jesus, and be born again.
I cant be born again because I am a Roman Catholic. For me, being Saved is an ongoing process until Judgement day. Please answer just one question: are you all Evangelical Christians who believe that the Bible is innerrant and infallible (without any error at all). That would explain it all to me. That would explain why I find it so confusing.

RC Church taught faith and works. And the Bible speaks about this in great length. I posted Faith Without Works is dead up above.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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I cant be born again because I am a Roman Catholic. For me, being Saved is an ongoing process until Judgement day. Please answer just one question: are you all Evangelical Christians who believe that the Bible is innerrant and infallible (without any error at all). That would explain it all to me. That would explain why I find it so confusing.

RC Church taught faith and works. And the Bible speaks about this in great length. I posted Faith Without Works is dead up above.
Sanctification is a life-long process, salvation can be obtained immediately by confessing your sins to God with a contrite heart with a desire to repent and inviting the Holy Spirit to live in your heart to comfort and guide you on your spiritual journey. It is only by the shed blood of Jesus dying on the cross that makes this possible. I was baptized as in infant in the Catholic church and I have been born again.

The Word of God is inerrant and infallible. The Holy Spirit inspired the writing of the bible and I'm sure that God knows full well how original writings were to be translated into the various versions, translations and languages and is written to be understood and intended to be applied. It is quite evident which versions of the bible, especially the current versions are truly the inspired written word of God. Any version which takes away, diminishes, or denies the divinity of Jesus Christ was not inspired and therefore unreliable.

You can be assured of your salvation right now wherever you are if you chose to do so. I pray that you make this choice otherwise you will live in fear and have anxiety of your eternal destination.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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I just don't understand this thread.

The answer is so simple, if it fell out of the sky and hit one on the head, it couldn't be plainer.

If there were any other way to heaven than through Jesus, either by living well, being good, obeying the 10 commandments, believing there is a God, etc., then Jesus would not have had to come and die.

Ah, but Jesus did not come to earth to "die". He came to teach us for three and a half years to do all the things you say: live well, treat others well ... The Sermon On the Mount outlines it for us. If we do those things, it does not matter what specific beliefs we have that vary. Jesus died because they killed him. He was a radical, he said he was the son of God ... they didnt like that ... he is not a blood sacrifice.
The only reason Jesus took on humanity and lived a life free of sin and in constant communication with His heavenly father was to die for the sins of the world. Read John 3:16 as this may help clarify this for you. Jesus did teach how one should live their lives in a way that is spiritually edifying but also told Nicodemus that if he wanted to enter heaven and spend eternity in the presence of God he must be born again.

The purpose of Jesus was not to simply teach but rather to save. You can do all of the wonderful things that Jesus taught on His sermon on the mount but unless you are born again your efforts will fall short, and may cause more harm than good because it was done out of fear or misunderstanding or simply a way to try to measure up to God's standard which is perfection.

What you understand and propose is impossible to save you or anyone else from eternal separation from God.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I cant be born again because I am a Roman Catholic. For me, being Saved is an ongoing process until Judgement day. Please answer just one question: are you all Evangelical Christians who believe that the Bible is innerrant and infallible (without any error at all). That would explain it all to me. That would explain why I find it so confusing.

RC Church taught faith and works. And the Bible speaks about this in great length. I posted Faith Without Works is dead up above.

So catholics are universalists? I did nto know that.

Yes, we know faith without works is dead. Whoever has faith WILL WORK. It is not a question, and that was noit the question James posed. He was speaking to people who CLAIMED to have faith, but had no works.

Not people who claimed to have works, but had works.. Those were not his audience.

If we see a person who claims to have faith, but are hearers of the word and not doers. Whe would question their salvation also.
 

LaurieB

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2018
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The only reason Jesus took on humanity and lived a life free of sin and in constant communication with His heavenly father was to die for the sins of the world. Read John 3:16 as this may help clarify this for you. Jesus did teach how one should live their lives in a way that is spiritually edifying but also told Nicodemus that if he wanted to enter heaven and spend eternity in the presence of God he must be born again.

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James clearly states it is faith and works and that one without the other does not work;

[h=1]James 2:14-26 New King James Version (NKJV)

Faith Without Works Is Dead[/h][FONT=&quot]14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also[/FONT]
 
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James didn't say it was faith and works that save.

He said real faith has works, and stated concerning a false faith "can that faith save?" The answer isn't that faith alone cannot and does not save. That faith cannot save.

That isn't his argument at all, he is not arguing that faith alone is incapable of saving a person (and Paul proves this point that faith does save in Romans 4, 5&c) yet many are making it his argument and are merely pitting this passage against others. Every false teaching does just that, one Scripture is pitted against another.

James is showing that true faith works, not that faith alone doesn't save since the faith he is rebuking is a false faith. That is his argument.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
The only reason Jesus took on humanity and lived a life free of sin and in constant communication with His heavenly father was to die for the sins of the world. Read John 3:16 as this may help clarify this for you. Jesus did teach how one should live their lives in a way that is spiritually edifying but also told Nicodemus that if he wanted to enter heaven and spend eternity in the presence of God he must be born again.

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James clearly states it is faith and works and that one without the other does not work;

James 2:14-26 New King James Version (NKJV)

Faith Without Works Is Dead


14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also
No one here is arguing that people who CLAIM to have faith, but have NO WORKS are saved.. Why do you and those like you insist we think otherwise?
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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I cant be born again because I am a Roman Catholic. For me, being Saved is an ongoing process until Judgement day. Please answer just one question: are you all Evangelical Christians who believe that the Bible is innerrant and infallible (without any error at all). That would explain it all to me. That would explain why I find it so confusing.

RC Church taught faith and works. And the Bible speaks about this in great length. I posted Faith Without Works is dead up above.
Laurie, it's very hard to talk to you without sounding condescending, or harsh. I can only tell you that is absolutely NOT my intent. So please remember that.

I also grew up catholic. School and all. Most of my relatives remain catholic. I am very familiar with your doctrines and teachings. YOU chose however to come to a site that preaches that it is Christ ALONE that saves.

This is now the 3rd time I've asked you. Did God the Father allow His Son to be tortured and murdered, EVEN after His Son asked Him 3 times to take the cup (crucifixion, payment of sin) from Him KNOWING THERE WAS ANOTHER WAY?

Again I ask. Who gave you the right to pick and choose passages of the Bible you like, and to discard the passages you don't like?

This in effect makes YOU the author of the Word instead of God. But the Bible tells us that we are incapable of understanding these things until we have been born again. The cross, what it's purpose was, is foolishness to them that are perishing.

WIDE is the path leading to destruction, and MANY are those that enter that way. That way includes Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Bhuddism, Wiccans, Atheists, "CHRISTIANS" that trust in ANYTHING besides the Blood of Christ, and many other isms.

NARROW is the WAY that leads to eternal life, and FEW are they who find it.

Jesus Christ is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE!

Please be a member of the few by BELIEVING AND TRUSTING IN CHRIST ALONE FOR SALVATION.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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James didn't say it was faith and works that save.

He said real faith has works, and stated concerning a false faith "can that faith save?" The answer isn't that faith alone cannot and does not save. That faith cannot save.

That isn't his argument at all, he is not arguing that faith alone is incapable of saving a person (and Paul proves this point that faith does save in Romans 4, 5&c) yet many are making it his argument and are merely pitting this passage against others. Every false teaching does just that, one Scripture is pitted against another.

James is showing that true faith works, not that faith alone doesn't save since the faith he is rebuking is a false faith. That is his argument.
Yes, in James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

*So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
 

LaurieB

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2018
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Laurie, it's very hard to talk to you without sounding condescending, or harsh. I can only tell you that is absolutely NOT my intent. So please remember that.

I also grew up catholic. School and all. Most of my relatives remain catholic. I am very familiar with your doctrines and teachings. YOU chose however to come to a site that preaches that it is Christ ALONE that saves.

This is now the 3rd time I've asked you. Did God the Father allow His Son to be tortured and murdered, EVEN after His Son asked Him 3 times to take the cup (crucifixion, payment of sin) from Him KNOWING THERE WAS ANOTHER WAY?

Again I ask. Who gave you the right to pick and choose passages of the Bible you like, and to discard the passages you don't like?

This in effect makes YOU the author of the Word instead of God. But the Bible tells us that we are incapable of understanding these things until we have been born again. The cross, what it's purpose was, is foolishness to them that are perishing.

WIDE is the path leading to destruction, and MANY are those that enter that way. That way includes Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Bhuddism, Wiccans, Atheists, "CHRISTIANS" that trust in ANYTHING besides the Blood of Christ, and many other isms.

NARROW is the WAY that leads to eternal life, and FEW are they who find it.

Jesus Christ is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE!

Please be a member of the few by BELIEVING AND TRUSTING IN CHRIST ALONE FOR SALVATION.
My response

Actually, I looked and asked or a Mission Statement or Statement of Belief so that I would know before posting in the first place and was told that it was a stupid question to ask. I asked this question of several people, and never got a clear answer.

Now I understand. This is a conservative Protestant site. And I really appreciate that someone has finally said it in black and white: you believe the Bible is the inerrant, infallible and, in fact, dictated word of God. Not one mistake ... ever. Not one word was lost/changed in translation. There were no mistakes in copying. And, of course, we know exactly , word for word, what Jesus said even though not a word of it was written down until 70 AD. (in that era, that would apprimate 2 generations where his words were passed down by memories of what he said) ... yet we have his exact words.

The answer to your question is this: Yes, God and Jesus knew that he would be crucified for what He taught and preached. Yet, He did it anyway. He wa killed by those who detested what he was saying. In that sense, yes, he did die for the sins of Mankind.

I have been told I am somehow apostate, have a false gospel, things aren't going to end well for me ... and all the other loving hints that Hell is waiting for me. If all of that is true, why oh why would I stay here? You are not here to teach me nor I you. We are all to learn from one another.
I tend to use critical thinking when it comes to religion ... all religions ... and my logic says: A God of love would not send people innocent of his Word, to Hell. That would not be loving, nor would it be just. That is it.

I wish you all well. I condemn none of you. That is God's call, and I think I will leave it in His most capable hands.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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I have been told I am somehow apostate, have a false gospel, things aren't going to end well for me ... and all the other loving hints that Hell is waiting for me.
Just curious. What do YOU believe the gospel IS and what do YOU believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel? -- Romans 1:16.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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I cant be born again because I am a Roman Catholic. For me, being Saved is an ongoing process until Judgement day. Please answer just one question: are you all Evangelical Christians who believe that the Bible is innerrant and infallible (without any error at all). That would explain it all to me. That would explain why I find it so confusing.

RC Church taught faith and works. And the Bible speaks about this in great length. I posted Faith Without Works is dead up above.
A Roman Catholic can be saved. The Roman Catholic church teaching does not teach salvation by grace through faith. The Roman Catholic church teaches that grace is administered by the church through the sacraments. This is not how the bible teaches salvation by grace through faith.

The Roman Catholic church never allows anyone to be secure in their salvation because they make it a progressive salvation again relying on the sacraments to move one along toward eventual salvation. They have even added purgatory to make entrance into heaven possible for all except the worst offenders.

Salvation is completed the moment we accept Christ. Sanctification is our progressive walk with Christ until we are finally glorified with Him for all of eternity. Changed into our glorified bodies made like unto His glorified body.

James is teaching us like Paul that works flow out of salvation not into or contribute to salvation. Only the righteousness of Christ is sufficient for God our Eternal Father.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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A Roman Catholic can be saved. The Roman Catholic church teaching does not teach salvation by grace through faith. The Roman Catholic church teaches that grace is administered by the church through the sacraments. This is not how the bible teaches salvation by grace through faith.

The Roman Catholic church never allows anyone to be secure in their salvation because they make it a progressive salvation again relying on the sacraments to move one along toward eventual salvation. They have even added purgatory to make entrance into heaven possible for all except the worst offenders.

Salvation is completed the moment we accept Christ. Sanctification is our progressive walk with Christ until we are finally glorified with Him for all of eternity. Changed into our glorified bodies made like unto His glorified body.

James is teaching us like Paul that works flow out of salvation not into or contribute to salvation. Only the righteousness of Christ is sufficient for God our Eternal Father.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Yes, a Roman Catholic can be saved, but they will be saved IN SPITE of what the Roman Catholic church teaches about salvation and NOT BECAUSE of what they teach. I am a former Roman Catholic who has been saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

"Whoever" believes in Him.. (John 3:16). Believers make up the body of Christ (Ephesians 1:13; Colossians 1:18,24). There are certain churches that teach false gospels, which will lead all of those to their doom, who strictly follow the teachings of that church. But those who believe the true gospel, and not just whatever their church teaches, are saved regardless of the group with which they are associated. Conversely, one's church may preach the true gospel. If one truly believes the gospel, then one has eternal life. But if one does not believe it, then one is lost even though the official teaching of one's church is correct.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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My response

Actually, I looked and asked or a Mission Statement or Statement of Belief so that I would know before posting in the first place and was told that it was a stupid question to ask. I asked this question of several people, and never got a clear answer.

Now I understand. This is a conservative Protestant site. And I really appreciate that someone has finally said it in black and white: you believe the Bible is the inerrant, infallible and, in fact, dictated word of God. Not one mistake ... ever. Not one word was lost/changed in translation. There were no mistakes in copying. And, of course, we know exactly , word for word, what Jesus said even though not a word of it was written down until 70 AD. (in that era, that would apprimate 2 generations where his words were passed down by memories of what he said) ... yet we have his exact words.

The answer to your question is this: Yes, God and Jesus knew that he would be crucified for what He taught and preached. Yet, He did it anyway. He wa killed by those who detested what he was saying. In that sense, yes, he did die for the sins of Mankind.

I have been told I am somehow apostate, have a false gospel, things aren't going to end well for me ... and all the other loving hints that Hell is waiting for me. If all of that is true, why oh why would I stay here? You are not here to teach me nor I you. We are all to learn from one another.
I tend to use critical thinking when it comes to religion ... all religions ... and my logic says: A God of love would not send people innocent of his Word, to Hell. That would not be loving, nor would it be just. That is it.

I wish you all well. I condemn none of you. That is God's call, and I think I will leave it in His most capable hands.
I'm hoping the seeds we plant here will not wither and die when you leave here.

The purpose and entirety of the Bible is to redeem Mankind from the fall of Adam & Eve. We have ALL sinned and deserve to pay the debt of that sin which is eternal death.

If you are born once, you die twice. The 1st is your physical death. The second is the death of your soul.

If you are born twice, you die only once. THIS is why it is so imperative to be "born again". Everyone is a creation of God, but ONLY those born again are CHILDREN of God.

So how do we become born again, a NEW Creation, with a NEW heart, a Child of ABBA, Daddy, Father in Heaven?

We hear the ONLY Gospel of Salvation and believe. This is a supernatural birth. So here is THE Gospel unto Salvation. THERE IS NO OTHER!

God wrapped Himself in human flesh, in the form of His Son, Jesus Christ. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin woman. He suffered, was crucified, died to pay the sin debt WE owe. Was raised to life on the 3rd day according to the Scriptures.

Now. Confess with your tongue, believe in your heart that He was raised to life, and you WILL be saved. At that point the Holy Spirit will inhabit you, and work in your life to transform you to the likeness of Jesus.

THAT IS WHY JESUS CAME TO EARTH THE 1ST TIME!

You are familiar with the Jewish sacrificial law right? They had to sacrifice a spotless, healthy, INNOCENT lamb. This started in Egypt when they had to BUTCHER INNOCENT lambs, and spread their blood over their door posts so that the angel of DEATH would Passover their abode.

LISTEN to how John the Baptist introduces Jesus the Messiah:
[h=1]John 1:29 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Lamb of God
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world![/h]
Jesus IS the Sacrificial Lamb of God! His Blood is necessary to not only cover, or forgive, but to forever REMOVE our sin!

I tell you the absolute, unadulterated, pure, TRUTH. If YOU do NOT have the Son, by believing THIS Gospel, you remain DEAD in your sin, and will be eternally "cut off" from God, and ALL His goodness, and will be in a place designed for satan and his angels that fell.

There really is NOTHING else we can do except maybe answer some questions, but you will be spiritually discerned til you are born again. We will pray for you and LOVE you in the meantime.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Could not edit my above post but here is the whole thing:

James 2:14-26 King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Let's examine James 2:14-26.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. He was "shown to be righteous."

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God(Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

In a nutshell, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26).

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*

Any questions?
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
I just don't understand this thread.

The answer is so simple, if it fell out of the sky and hit one on the head, it couldn't be plainer.

If there were any other way to heaven than through Jesus, either by living well, being good, obeying the 10 commandments, believing there is a God, etc., then Jesus would not have had to come and die.

Ah, but Jesus did not come to earth to "die". He came to teach us for three and a half years to do all the things you say: live well, treat others well ... The Sermon On the Mount outlines it for us. If we do those things, it does not matter what specific beliefs we have that vary. Jesus died because they killed him. He was a radical, he said he was the son of God ... they didnt like that ... he is not a blood sacrifice.
i think the teachings of Jesus fall on deaf ears for many today, those teachings require work and works has become a dirty word. belief is much easier to follow, you dont have to do anything. the pharisees had belief, they believed in everything they taught. not sure that worked out so well for them.