The Rapture of the Church is not biblical.

tanakh · Mar 16, 2018

So according to you there are a billion things wrong with'' my position ''. To start with its not my position. It is what most of the Church has believed in the past 2000 years and is included in the Nicene and Apostles creed. The main argument on this site is not whether he is coming back or not but the timing of that event.

One major error in your reply is that Christ and the Holy Spirit are one of the same. If that was true it would make Christs Baptism and John the Baptists testimony nonsensical. The same goes for Christs promise to his Disciples that he would send another comforter that would lead them into all truth if he and the Holy Spirit were exactly the same. Do you believe in the Trinity?

Like many subjects in the Bible the Kingdom of Heaven has a number of different levels of interpretation and a study of the whole Bible is necessary to fully understand it.

Noose · Mar 16, 2018

tanakh said:

This is a good reply but only good up-to to the level you and most people have been taught, you actually haven't taken a bible and interrogated it by yourself.

John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[SUP]c[/SUP] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.......23Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

John 16:7But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.......16Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”.

So Jesus says the Spirit of truth was already there with the disciples yet He(Jesus) must go so that The spirit can come in them, if He doesn't, the spirit won't come into them. And again Jesus says in a while He will be leaving and in a short while He will come in them.

If anyone understands this differently other than Jesus saying He is going and coming in another form then i can't help them. Exactly the same thing Isaiah said in :

Isa 9:6[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Name= Authority
The child's authority shall be:
Wonderful Counsellor= Holy spirit
The everlasting Father= Father
son= Son

CS1 · Mar 16, 2018

tcross11 said:

well the "Shepard's Chapel " Pastor Arnold Murray is very much in line with with serpremicy . and a false teacher .

James37 · Mar 16, 2018

tcross11 said:

[video=youtube;0axuKbl1t6o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0axuKbl1t6o[/video]

garee · Mar 16, 2018

James37 said:

LOL.. More of a astounding lie

The word five represents “redemption” not a Whale . A whale created on the fifth day does not represent death. The belly of a whale speaks of a living work of someone suffering the pangs of hell. Again as a living suffering. When having its demands met as an answer to prayer and supplication the Whale spits out temporal form of suffering on to dry land.

The belly of the Whale is referred to as a heart of the earth in the new testament . Having nothing to do with dirt. The dead know no pain.

Five in increments of tens is the word that points to redemption. Two represents the church, in that way we compare the spiritual meaning to the spiritual words of faith in all parables.
Not including the old testement examples..

Matthew 14:17 And they say unto him, We have here but five loaves, and two fishes.

Matthew 14:19 And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.

Matthew 14:21 And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.

Matthew 16:9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?

Matthew 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

Matthew 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

Matthew 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

Matthew 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

Mark 6:38 He saith unto them, How many loaves have ye? go and see. And when they knew, they say, Five, and two fishes.

Mark 6:41 And when he had taken the five loaves and the two fishes, he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and brake the loaves, and gave them to his disciples to set before them; and the two fishes divided he among them all.

Mark 6:44 And they that did eat of the loaves were about five thousand men.

Luke 1:24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,

Luke 7:41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.

Luke 9:13 But he said unto them, Give ye them to eat. And they said, We have no more but five loaves and two fishes; except we should go and buy meat for all this people.

Luke 9:14 For they were about five thousand men. And he said to his disciples, Make them sit down by fifties in a company.

Luke 12:6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?

Luke 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

Luke 14:19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.

Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Luke 19:18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.

Luke 19:19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

John 4:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

John 5:2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.

John 6:9 There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many?

John 6:10 And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.

John 6:13 Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten.

Twelve above represents the final authority of God

Depleted · Mar 16, 2018

As yet another eschatology argument starts, have you noticed the OP never returned?

Any particular reason you can't continue arguing the same ole same ole on the 20,000 other threads started about this already?

tanakh · Mar 17, 2018

Noose said:

You seem to have a problem with the Trinity. There are three distinct persons in the Godhead If Christ and the Father were essentially the same person Christ would be talking to himself throughout his ministry.

As for interrogating the Bible well I have been led to believe that the Bible is meant to interrogate us. The level one reaches isbased on faith not on our interrogation. Paul speaks of people making a Shipwreck of their faith and many still do by coming to the wrong conclusions.

I recently read about a Theologian by the name of Richard Goulder. He began as a Church of England Priest and was a brilliant intellectual. He made an important contribution towards understanding how the Gospels were written and used by the early Church as Lectionaries. Sadly his studies led him to wrong conclusions. He lost his faith and died an Atheist

Noose · Mar 17, 2018

tanakh said:

Good response again but based on a certain level of understanding.

I don't have a problem with Trinity, acknowledging that Jesus is God is the most fundamental thing in our belief. Our difference arise in the explanation of the relationship between the Father/Son/Holy spirit. You say the church fathers concluded that the three are distinct persons in the Godhead- but the scriptures do not acknowledge the church fathers as an authority in interpreting scriptures. You do realize that that is an interpretation by believers just like you and me.

I do believe that the Father/son/Holy spirit are authorities of God for different roles could be at different times or even the same time. I don't say that i'm right but that's what i see for myself when i read the scriptures. I have already shown you several scriptures where Jesus is shown as being the Holy spirit and if i show you where Jesus said ".. i and the Father are one" or "...if you see me, you have seen the Father..."- you'll just shut me down by saying they are one in purpose or bring me another verse that says "...the Father is greater than i..."
I don't deny that, to me it means the authority of the Father is always greater than the authority of the son. Then i'll show one verse where Jesus calls Himself the Father:

Rev 21:7 The one who is victorious will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.

I don't have a clue what your response to this would be.

planitsoon · Mar 17, 2018

The rapture came about by a dream of Margaret McDonald and was added to the future view of Revelation by Darby that originated by Jezuit Fransisco Ribera in 1585 after the Pope demanded two new interpretations of revelation to avoid the stigma of being called the beast by the Reformers. Lacunza wrote further on it and Irwin early 1800 translated it from Spanish to English. That's how Darby got a hold of it. This is an indept talk on the history of Dispensationalism, the framework of interpretation of which the rapture is just one part

Enjoy!

https://soundcloud.com/user-3967738...dcloud&utm_campaign=share&utm_medium=facebook

Ahwatukee · Mar 17, 2018

planitsoon said:

Greetings planitsoon,

We've heard this all before too many times to count on this site and elsewhere. The thing is, we come to our conclusion regarding the gathering of the church right from scripture. I personally have never read anything by McDonald, Darby or any of those you mentioned above. Furthermore, the gathering of the church must take place prior to God's wrath being poured out because believers are not appointed to suffer god's wrath, and said wrath must also take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

The people that you mentioned above have nothing to do with the writing of the word of God and I can understand from scripture that the church must be gathered prior to the first seal being opened.

Noose · Mar 17, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

Don't you know that tribulation is specifically for God's people?

Zac 13:9"And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested.They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, They are My people,' And they will say,'The LORD is my God.'"

Rev 2:10Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Look, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison to test you, and you will suffer tribulation for ten days. Be faithful even unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Dan 12: 7I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.

Ahwatukee · Mar 17, 2018

Noose said:

The scripture you quoted above, is referring to Israel and not the church.

The scripture above was to the church of Smyrna and the reference to them being thrown into prison ten days was specifically to them.

Dan 12:7I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed

The scripture above is obviously to the "holy people" Israel, and is in reference to when the abomination is set up on the holy place within the temple.

Therefore, the tribulation will be in fulfillment of the seventy sets of seven years that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem. Sixty nine of those sevens were completed when the Messiah was cut off/crucified. At that time, the Lord paused that last seven years and began to build His church, which is still in the process of being build. Once the church has been completed the Lord will appear and gather the church (John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18). Once the church has been gathered, then God will pick up with Israel right where He left off in fulfillment of that last seven years.

The church will not go through God's tribulation/wrath because Jesus already suffered it on behalf of every believer. However, God has unfulfilled prophesies with Israel and Jerusalem to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. - Dan.9:24

Ahwatukee · Mar 17, 2018

Noose said:

The scripture you quoted above, is referring to Israel and not the church.

The scripture above was to the church of Smyrna and the reference to them being thrown into prison ten days was specifically to them.

The scripture above is obviously to the "holy people" Israel, and is in reference to when the abomination is set up on the holy place within the temple.

Therefore, the tribulation will be in fulfillment of the seventy sets of seven years that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem. Sixty nine of those sevens were completed when the Messiah was cut off/crucified. At that time, the Lord paused that last seven years and began to build His church, which is still in the process of being build. Once the church has been completed the Lord will appear and gather the church (John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18). Once the church has been gathered, then God will pick up with Israel right where He left off in fulfillment of that last seven years.

The church will not go through God's tribulation/wrath because Jesus already suffered it on behalf of every believer. However, God has unfulfilled prophesies with Israel and Jerusalemto finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. - Dan.9:24

Noose · Mar 17, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

You are obviously wrong.

Gal 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Col 3:10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, or free,but Christ is all and is in all.

Rom 10: 12For there is no difference between Jew and Greek: The same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on Him, 13[FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Where does it say that when the antichrist comes, he will only come and defeat the Israelites and will have nothing to do with the gentiles?
[/FONT]

Nehemiah6 · Mar 17, 2018

planitsoon said:

Now that you have got that little bit of propaganda out of the way, why don't you go the the actual Scriptures and explain what they say regarding the catching up of the Church?

Ahwatukee · Mar 17, 2018

Above is the church. The nation Israel is a separate entity from the church, which God is going to deal with during the last seven years of the decree of seventy seven year periods. Please see below:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. So the angel told her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you shall give Him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
And this is My covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Israel did not recognize their Messiah when he came the first time. Everyone who believes in him becomes apart of the church. God has unfinished prophecy with the nation Israel and He is going to be dealing with them during the last seven years described in Daniel 9:24-27, also known as the time of Jacob's trouble. During this same time God will also be pouring out His wrath upon a Christ rejecting world.

So ...... nope, I'm not wrong, but right on the money!

Noose · Mar 17, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

You are still wrong. Israel, going to the new covenant means believers not people occupying some land in the middle east.

There shall be no last 7 years of anything- go do your 70 week calculation well without putting gaps. Start from Daniel's time and hit the time of Jesus' birth/death & resurrection right on the mark, then we can start talking about the last 7 years, otherwise you are blowing air.

The antichrist comes for Israel and not for the church, you say- can you explain this:

Rev 13:7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 14:6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.8And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The verses above show that there will saints from all nations/kindreds/tongues when the wrath of God comes.

ljs · Mar 17, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

Above is the church. The nation Israel is a separate entity from the church, which God is going to deal with during the last seven years of the decree of seventy seven year periods. Please see below:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. So the angel told her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you shall give Him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. [/COLOR]The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved,as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
And this is My covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Israel did not recognize their Messiah when he came the first time. Everyone who believes in him becomes apart of the church. God has unfinished prophecy with the nation Israel and He is going to be dealing with them during the last seven years described in Daniel 9:24-27, also known as the time of Jacob's trouble. During this same time God will also be pouring out His wrath upon a Christ rejecting world.

So ...... nope, I'm not wrong, but right on the money!

I appreciate your posts !

Bladerunner · Mar 17, 2018

planitsoon said:

How about you go back just a little further and pick up the Bible and read 2 Thes. These people thought they had missed the rapture. They were looking for it..........I think this was around what 60 AD....a little earlier than 1585. Good Reading

Blade

Bladerunner · Mar 17, 2018

Noose said:

You are obviously wrong.

Gal 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Col 3:10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, or free,but Christ is all and is in all.

Rom 10: 12For there is no difference between Jew and Greek: The same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on Him, 13[FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Where does it say that when the antichrist comes, he will only come and defeat the Israelites and will have nothing to do with the gentiles?
[/FONT]

Me thinks you have not Rightly divided the Bible....My People is Israel not the Church...We are the Bride.
Blessings

Blade

The Rapture of the Church is not biblical.

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