Once Saved, Always Saved ... OR Can you Lose your Salvation?

[MarcR]

I don't read the Bible literally and I beliefve we have the ability to be good people. We are not born bad. The Sermon on the Mount is about a way to live .. it IS about being good. If Jesus thought we could not be good, He would not have wasted three and a half years tell us HOW to be good people.
The fundamentalist "sin" versus "not sinning" approach misses the mark ... it misses the LIFE of Jesus and it focuses on his death.

I believe that Scripture should be taken literally unless there is compelling linguistic reason to do otherwise.

For example: Jesus did NOT literally mistake the Pharisees for snakes. The words 'like' or 'as' usually cue us that a symbolic meaning is coming. If something is exaggerated to the point of being preposterous, it is probably a teaching style of 1st century rabbinics called didactic hyperbole.

IMO if you allegorize or Spiritualize Scripture you will miss the point.

 

[MarcR]

I NEVER want to argue. You can ALWAYS assume that any post of mine is not argument, but discussion, based on what God has said and how I perceive what He has said.

I agree that it is all about the good news!

I agree that we are all sinners in need of the kindness of God!

I NEVER want to argue. You can ALWAYS assume that any post of mine is not argument, but discussion, based on what God has said and how I perceive what He has said.

The words argument and argue are used in vastly different ways by different people in different contexts.

Arguement:

1) a series of statements or reasons used to establish a position or belief

2) a line of reasoning that seeks to prove God's existence

3) a statement or fact made in support of an idea

4) evidence or proof

5) a statement in favor of or against a proposition or idea.

6) a verbal dispute or quarrel

7) a summary of a book or report.

Argue;

1) Discuss

2) reason

3) debate

4) contend

Perhaps you meant to say that you are not intentionally contentious?

 

[MarcR]

No, neither tense indicates that the action will continue forever.


"the aorist simply states the fact that an action has happened. It gives no information on how long it took, or whether the results are still in effect.


"The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present. Sample translation: "I have believed."

Notice that the perfect tense carries two ideas: (1) completed action and (2) continuing results. The action was completed at some time in the past, and the results continue up to the present."


From: https://www.ezraproject.com/greek-tenses-explained/

This is quite true. However there is a special use of the aorist which signifies continuous action outside of time:

Matt 17:5
While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
KJV

There are several members on the forum whose skills in Greek are stronger than mine; so we can all be sure this will be corrected if untrue. No Worry It is indeed true.

 

[MarcR]

I do not see that,. I see something totally different from this.

You stated belief is based on trust,. Nothing in my post says this to be true.

When Pisteuo is translated as believe it includes trust. The Greek word pisteuo is such that belief that a chair can hold your weight is not complete until you sit on it.

in ordinary English, believe means only to give credence.

 

[MarcR]

Yes I agree they did not enter because of unbelief, but earlier they DID have belief, they placed their faith in Him after they saw what He did in Egypt. But then, in the desert, their hearts became evil and unbelieving and mistrusting.

That is the difference between credence and Biblical belief!

 

[Ralph-]

When Pisteuo is translated as believe it includes trust.

What is the English word used to translate 'pisteuo' when it does not include trust, but only conveys giving credence to something being true?


James said in James 2:19, "the devils also pisteuo": https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jas/2/1/t_conc_1148019.

And every translation of the Bible in the following link has translated 'pisteuo' in this verse as 'believe': James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

So I don't see what you're saying. Surely there is no suggestion that the devils trust in the One God, and only acknowledge with surety that there is one God, yet the English word 'believe' was used to translate 'pisteuo'.

 

[Ralph-]

This is quite true. However there is a special use of the aorist which signifies continuous action outside of time:

Matt 17:5
While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
KJV

There are several members on the forum whose skills in Greek are stronger than mine; so we can all be sure this will be corrected if untrue. No Worry It is indeed true.

Whether this is true or not I can not confirm. But I do think it would be a mistake to suggest that this means the action can not and will not be stopped.

I have not been able to find any resources that define a Greek verb tense that describes an action that can not, and will not stop. As far as I can tell all the tenses of verbs of action (with the exception of the future tense of course) only record and describe the action that has occurred or is occurring up to the present moment without the suggestion or the insistence that it will continue into the future and can not be stopped. Even the future tense only describes what WILL happen in the future, not that it will continue in the future forever.

 

[Ralph-]

...I am Calvinist...

Since you have remained in the discussion and don't have your hands clasped tightly over your ears, and you are not angry, you probably are not a true Calvinist.

Maybe what you will find is you have Calvinist leanings, not that you are truly Calvinist in conviction. That is where most Christians seem to be at.

 

[JohnOs]

Jesus gives us eternal life on the day of our salvation. We are secure and nothing and no one can stop you from your inheritance and free gift. God is able and will keep you till your presenting in heaven to the Lord.

 

[Ralph-]

what makes you think God will cease granting you this gift?

Because the Bible says if you go back to the world in unbelief you no longer have the benefit of Christ's sacrifice for justification.

Perhaps all people really want to argue (with the exception of hypergracers's of course) is that this is true, but true believers will never go back to the world in unbelief so you don't have to worry about what will happen if you go back to unbelief. Well, we can see clearly from the Bible that Paul DID worry about that happening. He did not take the Hebrew church, the Galatians, and the Corinthians falling away from trust in Christ very well as if it's impossible for that to happen.

 

[Ralph-]

Jesus gives us eternal life on the day of our salvation. We are secure and nothing and no one can stop you from your inheritance and free gift. God is able and will keep you till your presenting in heaven to the Lord.

I have no disagreement with this.

No one can rob you of your salvation. You have to be persuaded to forfeit it yourself through a return to unbelief.

And I agree that God is able....no, wait...MORE than able to keep the believer, and present him holy and blameless to the Father. That's why we should continue to rely on and trust in him to do that.

 

[LaurieB]

You have really got to drop the reading from "theologians." Clearly you're reading "theologians" that haven't studied the Bible any more than you have, because they're teaching you a huge wagon of cow patties!

Nothing wrong with reading and then learning more from theologians who spend a lifetime learning about what the Bible means. Reading the Bible like yesterday's newspaper is inaccurate.
When you entirely miss the fact that Jesus ministered for 3 1/2 year to teach us how to treat others, you have missed it all. To focus on Jesus death rather than his life (his teachings) IS to miss the proverbial boat.

 

[JohnOs]

I have no disagreement with this.

No one can rob you of your salvation. You have to be persuaded to forfeit it yourself through a return to unbelief.

And I agree that God is able....no, wait...MORE than able to keep the believer, and present him holy and blameless to the Father. That's why we should continue to rely on and trust in him to do that.

The Bible actually says in Greek "no one shall take you from the Father... even you."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Oh good, he went to bed. Now we can talk about him!

He thinks we choose whether we will believe or not.
You think we choose whether we will continue to believe or not.

No sis, I think we trust God (I did not chose God. He chose to save me, he did nto have to do that) because he proved himself to be trustworthy. And we are convinced he is right.

Our faith is not in danger of being lost, because our faith is not in self. It is in God. God would have to become untrustworthy, or fail us in many many areas before we would even consider losing faiht in him./ Because the root, foundastion of our faith is him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He will let you go for unbelief.

That is the one and only circumstance in which God will most certainly let you go, if you persist in that unbelief and refuse all attempts to bring you back to faith.



You can believe that you personally can't stop believing if you want. I don't know what stage of growth you are at, but it's clear from the example of the Galatians, the Corinthians, and the Hebrew church that it is possible to fall into unbelief with the help of the deceits of the enemy.


I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. 4For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.-2 Corinthians 11:3-4

No, He said he will NEVER LET US GO.

You can believe never does nto mean never, you can believe eternal does not mean et4ernal. You can believe forever does not mean forever.


Me, I will lay my foundation on Christ.


And again, John destroys your theology, He says whoever does not believe jesus is the christ is an antichrist. And a person who CLAIMED to be part of the church,. But left in an unbelief state (antichrist) NEVER WERE OF US.

They were never saved, You can scream from here to eternity they werre. I will trust GOD and his word, and not yous!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think that is what he believes.



While he does not believe that we choose to continue to believe or not, right?

If so, that's why I say he has the stains of Calvinism in his beliefs. Most Christians do. It's the conscious, or not so conscious thinking that God takes over to some extent and we have no say in it. Most Christians are affected by this element of Calvinistic thought to some extent, even if they are not Calvinist (which he is not).


I think that God is quite able to keep the believer believing.......if the believer wants to keep believing.

Calvanism says you did not chose to do anything. You were chosen,

If you can not get that right, how do you think you can get anything else right?

It is obviosu in these past two days, (actually the last year or so) you still have NO IDEA what I think.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When Pisteuo is translated as believe it includes trust. The Greek word pisteuo is such that belief that a chair can hold your weight is not complete until you sit on it.

in ordinary English, believe means only to give credence.

It can mean trust (ie, the verb form of faith, were we are told to believe in the name of the only son.) It can also have a lesser form, which means just knowledge void of assurance or trust (You believe you do well, even demons believe) neither the demons or the people who had dead faith had trust in the gospel. Or God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Bible actually says in Greek "no one shall take you from the Father... even you."

amen, No one means no one, last I saw, I am a someone.. Maybe they are not someones?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I NEVER want to argue. You can ALWAYS assume that any post of mine is not argument, but discussion, based on what God has said and how I perceive what He has said.

The words argument and argue are used in vastly different ways by different people in different contexts.

Arguement:

1) a series of statements or reasons used to establish a position or belief

2) a line of reasoning that seeks to prove God's existence

3) a statement or fact made in support of an idea

4) evidence or proof

5) a statement in favor of or against a proposition or idea.

6) a verbal dispute or quarrel

7) a summary of a book or report.

Argue;

1) Discuss

2) reason

3) debate

4) contend

Perhaps you meant to say that you are not intentionally contentious?

Okay who wants to poke marc in the eye for giving us MORE definitions to argue about...?

Just kidding marc.

What I mean when I say I don't want to argueis: trust, trust, trust!

That's just a joke too that not everyone will get. But EG and ralph will.

When I say I don't want to argue, it is me saying to a person that I'm not going to get angry, be mean to them and call them names and trot about arrogantly with the knowledge of Him that He has given me. (A bit like me describing marc, isn't it...?)

 

[Ralph-]

Calvanism says you did not chose to do anything. You were chosen,

If you can not get that right, how do you think you can get anything else right?

It is obviosu in these past two days, (actually the last year or so) you still have NO IDEA what I think.

If you believe that God has made it so that you will continue to believe and that you can not go against that then you are showing that you are influenced by Calvinist doctrine. I said 'influenced' by it. I know you are not an official Calvinist.

Almost all Christians are stained by Calvinism in one way or another.