Once Saved, Always Saved ... OR Can you Lose your Salvation?

[Ralph-]

It says the moment you believe YOU HAVE It

if you can lose it, it is CONDITIONAL not ETERNAL

Maybe you need to refocus on english and find out what words actually mean, In this case, english and greek mean the same, and can not be confused.






Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.


You should actually read what it says, John did not assume anything, He made the statment that there may still be peoplel there who are not yet saved, and they could be in danger like those who left.




Nice try, but you missed the major point.

John never said anyone who leaves is not p[art of the church, He said anyone who leaves who is now ANTICHRIST was never part of the church.

You know. People who CLAIMED they believed at one time, but LOST that belief, and now deny Christ?

I left church as a prodigal son for 5 years, i did not leave because I was never saved, and I came back, because of Gids chastening.

I never DENIED jesus as the christ.

once again, Just so you can not say you have been shown


THE PEOPLE JOHN SPOKE OF WERE THOSE WHO AT ONE TIME BELIEVED AND HAVE NOW LOST THEIR BELIEF.

oc course if history repeats. You will try to twist that to.



No, You do not understand the argument, I never stated or is our conversation EVER been about everyone who leaves.

it is ABOUT THOSE WHO AT ONE TIME BELIEVED< AND NOW DO NOT BELIEVE (they rehject christ)

I know many who stopped going to church, but still believe jesus is the christ. John is not talkin about them.

Will you finally open you eyes and see? Or continue to fight?

Later, I will flesh out the argument so that there is no misunderstanding. Then you will see what I'm saying and you can explain how what you say holds up to it.

THE PEOPLE JOHN SPOKE OF WERE THOSE WHO AT ONE TIME BELIEVED AND HAVE NOW LOST THEIR BELIEF.

Reread what you wrote here carefully.
Did you mean to say exactly this?
Just checking so when I respond you won't bring out the overused forum 'strawman' claim.

 

[Ralph-]

Do you think no catholic man or woman has the Holy Spirit?

Very, very, very few of them. I have met some. And I wonder why they keep attending the Catholic church.


Virtually ALL denominations have true Spirit sealed believers in them.

 

[MarcR]

Where did you get that information about the accent on "pisteuo"? Never heard of such a thing - and as far as I know such an idea is not even close to being true. The accent on a verb is recessive and is on the third to last syllable unless the last syllable is long, then the accent moves to the second from last syllable. So on a verb like pisteuo, the accent will move around depending on the ending of the verb stem. So, yes the accent on a verb will move around to different letters, but it never has anything to do with the meaning of the word.

There are some words in Greek where the placement of an accent means a difference in meaning, but not in verbs like pisteuo.

The other problem with what you say is that in "pisteuo" - that last letter "o" in the English transliteration of the Greek work is actually an omega in Greek and not an omicron!

So in James 2:19 where the devils "believe" the accent is on the upsilon, so your explanation might seem to fit. The problem is that it won't hold for other uses of the word. I would do some more study on it but don't have time now.

I am not necessarily saying your idea is incorrect, but just questioning the source? Or is it your own idea?

Do you know anything about Greek accents, or is it something you read somewhere? Or those of you out there that know about the accent in Greek, what do you say?

I got it from looking at the Greek text for several examples of each usage. Greek is generally a very precise language, and I thought the two usages might be distinguished in some way.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Very, very, very few of them. I have met some. And I wonder why they keep attending the Catholic church.


Virtually ALL denominations have true Spirit sealed believers in them.

Maybe few...but at the very least, probably more than you know or have met.

 

[Ralph-]

I thought the point he was trying to make is that Greek is more precise than English...

I will go back and check later, but I thought I understood him to be saying that when 'pisteuo' means mental ascent only that a different English word other than 'believe' is used in translation. If that's what he was saying I found no evidence of that in James 2:19 where 'pisteuo' does mean mere mental ascent without any trust being involved. All the translations I saw used the word 'believe'.

 

[Ralph-]

Maybe few...but at the very least, probably more than you know or have met.

We can't know for sure. My pastor used to call those kinds of Christians 'Clairol' Christians-only God knows (you're old enough to remember the hair commercial, right?).

 

[Chester]

I got it from looking at the Greek text for several examples of each usage. Greek is generally a very precise language, and I thought the two usages might be distinguished in some way.

You are right that Greek is generally a very precise language, but in this case the moving around of the accent on pisteuo has nothing to do with the meaning of the word.

I think you are right that the word pisteuo has different meanings (or maybe different levels of meaning) but this is determined by the context and not the accent mark.

 

[Chester]

So it is about you holding on to Jesus. You will not let go. Proud of your power and righteousness aren't you.
I will let Jesus hold me in His hand because He is the righteousness and all powerful one.

Let me wipe some of that mud off your face from this mud slinging contest! I think I got hit and it looks like you got hit too!

LOL!

I suppose God's hand is big enough to hold both of us! (Maybe I need to stay in his left hand in case I slip out! LOL)

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I will go back and check later, but I thought I understood him to be saying that when 'pisteuo' means mental ascent only that a different English word other than 'believe' is used in translation. If that's what he was saying I found no evidence of that in James 2:19 where 'pisteuo' does mean mere mental ascent without any trust being involved. All the translations I saw used the word 'believe'.

I rather thought he was saying that we use the same word in English when really, the greek word is more precise - that basically the greek word varies depending on some other factors like marks or endings. And that maybe we would really have to use more than one word in English if we were going to try to get as precise as the greek word is.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You are right that Greek is generally a very precise language, but in this case the moving around of the accent on pisteuo has nothing to do with the meaning of the word.

I think you are right that the word pisteuo has different meanings (or maybe different levels of meaning) but this is determined by the context and not the accent mark.

I'm getting the sense that a greek word may just tell more than an English word sometimes. If I say he ran, I'm just saying a man ran. If I want to say he continues to run, I have to add more words in English, whereas greek just adds a mark or letter or something but does not add any more words. That's what I got from what marc was saying, and others.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

We can't know for sure. My pastor used to call those kinds of Christians 'Clairol' Christians-only God knows (you're old enough to remember the hair commercial, right?).

I just want to make sure that we're careful to not think that because a man is in some error due to what another man has taught him, that doesn't necessarily mean he hasn't received the Spirit. That would make all of us to be in his shoes.

 

[Chester]

I'm getting the sense that a greek word may just tell more than an English word sometimes. If I say he ran, I'm just saying a man ran. If I want to say he continues to run, I have to add more words in English, whereas greek just adds a mark or letter or something but does not add any more words. That's what I got from what marc was saying, and others.

A Greek verb has over 200 possible forms that it may have. Each form has a distinct meaning. All this means a Greek verb is much more precise than an English verb.

The key difference is that English verb tenses deal primarily with time: past, present, and future.
Greek verbs deal primarily with kind of action: ongoing action, completed action, or action with ongoing results

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

A Greek verb has over 200 possible forms that it may have. Each form has a distinct meaning. All this means a Greek verb is much more precise than an English verb.

The key difference is that English verb tenses deal primarily with time: past, present, and future.
Greek verbs deal primarily with kind of action: ongoing action, completed action, or action with ongoing results

Yes, I think I may have grasped it. It boils down to their verb packing in much more information than our verb in English. Hence believe in English would perhaps mean believe and trust and keep believing and trusting, for instance, in greek, depending on which of those 200 forms is applied to the word.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Is there anything better than a cold meatloaf sandwich with mayo, catsup, salt and pepper...? I think not!

 

[mailmandan]

Is there anything better than a cold meatloaf sandwich with mayo, catsup, salt and pepper...? I think not!

There is something better. BBQ!

 

[MarcR]

You are right that Greek is generally a very precise language, but in this case the moving around of the accent on pisteuo has nothing to do with the meaning of the word.

I think you are right that the word pisteuo has different meanings (or maybe different levels of meaning) but this is determined by the context and not the accent mark.

Thank you for that. There seemed to be a correlation.

 

[MarcR]

You are right that Greek is generally a very precise language, but in this case the moving around of the accent on pisteuo has nothing to do with the meaning of the word.

I think you are right that the word pisteuo has different meanings (or maybe different levels of meaning) but this is determined by the context and not the accent mark.

Thank you for that. There seemed to be a correlation. In Hebrew the accent does function that way.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

There is something better. BBQ!

I concede. You win.

 

[valiant]

The question is very simple. Can God begin a work and not finish it.?

 

[preston39]

Those definitions are what I got from the shorter Oxford English Dictionary. I shortened and selected from those definitions to put the post sufficiently in my own words to obviate a citation.

M...,
...and correctly ......I just added a ....street definition for ...lay understanding.