Speaking of Hornet's Nests...

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
True but that should be sufficient to stir up the hornets nest. LOL

We identify with Christ not with Calvin or Arminius.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Oh I agree,’Sadly when people talk to us they like to put us in boxed. If you believe trinity your catholic, If you worship on sunday your catholic, If you believe in osas, you have to be calvin, if you beliebe salvation can be lost. You have to be arminian.

then we wonder why no one can understand what we believe, because they already have us baxewd in, and think they know wehat we believe, and no one will convince them otherwise.

I remember a pastor in my church when I was young would try to do this by attacking 0ther churches..
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Gotta say, post human got me intrigued when he mentioned no leftover fish only bread. I never noted it. Was waiting, hoping he might have something more to say on it. He apparently grabbed us all with the observation. :)

thats why we have to stay open minded. Never know when somethign will come up that may change our thinking.. Or consider somethign we did nto know before (we are not as smart as we think)
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Arminian - 5 points

1. Free will - I agree

2 - conditional election - I disagree the only condition is Gods foreknowledge, and that is not a condition we can fulfill.

3 - universal election - Agree, I believe Christ died for all. But only a few will be saved

4- HS can be resisted - I agree, we can resist the spirit as nopn believers (unbelief) and we (at least I) resist the spirit every day, we griebd the HS by resisting him, if we could not resist the spirit. We woudl never grieve him.

5. Falling from grace - Impossible

calvin

1. Totally depraved - agree in part. Man can do not good. (Although they can do good in a society, like give to the poor, serve people, and other things) I also believe Placing our faith in christ is not a work. It is the work of God. So to say a totally depraved person can not come to faith is a nonsensical idea in my view.

2. Unconditional election - agree, we have nothign to offer God in whcih God will say thank you, you have paid for your sin, now you may be my child

3 - limited atonement - reject. God loved the WORLD (COSMOS) he died for the WORLD, no one wil go to hell because they sinned, they will go to hell because they rejected christ (he who does not believe is condemned already) They will go to hell because they were IN ADAM.

4. Irrisistable grace- reject. Isreal was shown grace from the tim emoses returned and the whole 40 years in the wilderness, yet they resisted, Judas was showed grace, yet he resisted, these are just 2 examples)

5. Perseverance of the saints - I would not call it this, A person does not percevere and save themselved because they persevered. But they are eternally secure in Christ jesus, they can not lose salvation. Because GODS GRACE is is unending, and his love is never ending, and his promise is forever.

So I guess I am a 3 point arminian and a 2.5 point (2 if I only give .5 for perseverance the way it is worded) calvanist?


Thats why I would rather discuss the word. And not religious dogma.. trying to put people in boxes of being one way or the other just leads to confusion and misunderstanding and causes so much infighting.
Total depravity or total unworthiness? Man cannot save himself. This does not relieve man of his obligation to confess his sin to the Holy God Whom he has offended.

Unconditional election. All men are called to respond to the gospel. Many prefer the pleasures of sin and do not respond.

Limited atonement. Here Christ provided an all sufficient atonement that every man might be saved. The atonement is only efficacious to those who receive and surrender to Christ as Savior. Personal salvation is personal.

Irresistible grace. Where sin did abound grace did much more abound. There is no amount of sin that Christ cannot forgive. Sin cannot resist grace for Christ has overcome sin and death.

Perseverance of the Saints. God saves them and God keeps them saved. Though they should die they remain saved.

Taking out mans responsibility for his sin corrupts the grace of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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By the way, You opened a thread MOCKING those who believe they were drawn by God and give God all credit for allowing them, and giving them the option to say yes.

I hope you did not think that was going to go well. It never does.
I think she was not mocking, as in a rude way, but was using humor. We all were waiting for a countermeme. :)

You and Lynn are doing pretty good at allowing each other to have your own take on it while sharing yours. There is no reason to get cranked up. We only need to enjoy each other and try to understand each other. Don't even have to agree on every point but understanding how each are at whatever point they are.
 
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A man is walking down the street here with his umbrella straight out in front of him because the rain is coming straight sideways. Here in MD. Nasty foureaster!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
A man is walking down the street here with his umbrella straight out in front of him because the rain is coming straight sideways. Here in MD. Nasty foureaster!

1st day of spring? Could have fooled me.. Supposed to get a bunch of snow tonight.

But the northeast has been killed the past few weeks. I can’t complain.
 
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Where are you EG? In MD. They said 1-3. Then it became 3-6. Now they are saying 5-8 inches! That's a lot for here!
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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Yup, yup, yup. Always choice is involved. Seriously, I think this is something you assume Reformed don't believe, but we really, really do. It would not be fair to be given no choice, and then condemned for not making a choice, because we couldn't make a choice.

We were given choice. We got the calligraphy, hand-delivered invitation, along with everyone else. But what was the difference between those who came and those who didn't? The only choice left to us -- come or die! Who is going with, "Ooo, ooo! I'll take die!"? The smart! The brains. The top dogs of society! (And as hard as life has been with the Lord, I still get why people choose not to follow him. I just can't imagine how awful that hopeless life would be without him.)

God chose the weak, the foolish, the stupid to confound them. 15,000 battle-ready Midianites came in to sack Israel, and God chose the dude hiding in a threshing basin to lead the way. God chose Gideon!

God always chooses the lesser and loves them to greatness -- his greatness.

His choice!

Me? I'm just overwhelmed at his banquet and thankful he found me for the feast.
I do agree with some of what you say...and believe me I am really trying to understand your point on the rest of it.

The choice thing really is a hang up for me though, and maybe I am not clearly understanding it or something, but I just don't get it. It sounds like well we had a choice, but we really didn't because God made the choice of whom he would save and whom he would not.

I do believe God knows our choice, and what choice everyone will make, but I don't think he made the choice for us.

I just can't see why he would have chose me and not someone else. He doesn't need me for anything, but I do need him for everything. :)
 
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Aw man and a school shooting one county over. Gotta go make sure it isn't the school either of my cousins teaches at. Pretty sure its not...
 
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Okay, it's not one of their schools. The older cousin teaches at a school a mile away from the one where the shooting happened. Gosh sakes.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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Yup, yup, yup. Always choice is involved. Seriously, I think this is something you assume Reformed don't believe, but we really, really do. It would not be fair to be given no choice, and then condemned for not making a choice, because we couldn't make a choice.

We were given choice. We got the calligraphy, hand-delivered invitation, along with everyone else. But what was the difference between those who came and those who didn't? The only choice left to us -- come or die! Who is going with, "Ooo, ooo! I'll take die!"? The smart! The brains. The top dogs of society! (And as hard as life has been with the Lord, I still get why people choose not to follow him. I just can't imagine how awful that hopeless life would be without him.)

God chose the weak, the foolish, the stupid to confound them. 15,000 battle-ready Midianites came in to sack Israel, and God chose the dude hiding in a threshing basin to lead the way. God chose Gideon!

God always chooses the lesser and loves them to greatness -- his greatness.

His choice!

Me? I'm just overwhelmed at his banquet and thankful he found me for the feast.
Oops meant to comment on the other part of this as well. The smart ones, top dog's in society or wise in this world are usually prideful and that is why most don't accept him. Kinda like Pharaoh....lifted up in pride and not willing to humble themselves down. They'll do it there way or no way. So they reject him, but it is still their choice.

Not saying that is the case every time....just saying God looks at the heart and we have to be willing to humble down, call out to him, and submit to him through faith in Jesus.:)
 
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1st day of spring? Could have fooled me.. Supposed to get a bunch of snow tonight.

But the northeast has been killed the past few weeks. I can’t complain.
Actually...first day of spring is tomorrow, when the bulk of the snow will fall. They need to fire the groundhog or sumpin'...
 
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I do agree with some of what you say...and believe me I am really trying to understand your point on the rest of it.

The choice thing really is a hang up for me though, and maybe I am not clearly understanding it or something, but I just don't get it. It sounds like well we had a choice, but we really didn't because God made the choice of whom he would save and whom he would not.

I do believe God knows our choice, and what choice everyone will make, but I don't think he made the choice for us.

I just can't see why he would have chose me and not someone else. He doesn't need me for anything, but I do need him for everything. :)
I'll describe my mind on it. Think this: A huge monster Godzilla thing is coming toward you. You never believed this thing existed and thought it was just a made up story. You have a choice to try to run out of its path. Do you choose yes or no? Does ANYONE choose no? You have seen for yourself that this Godzilla thing is NOT made up as you believed and is REAL and you now have the choice to make: do I run or do I not run? So my mind says: why are you wasting time on the argument of well, I can choose to stay right here and get runned over because it's up to me, when no one will make that choice after they have seen for themselves that Godzilla exists and is headed straight for them. Who will be standing there having not made the choice to run? NO ONE! Unless there is a blind man who can't see.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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I'll describe my mind on it. Think this: A huge monster Godzilla thing is coming toward you. You never believed this thing existed and thought it was just a made up story. You have a choice to try to run out of its path. Do you choose yes or no? Does ANYONE choose no? You have seen for yourself that this Godzilla thing is NOT made up as you believed and is REAL and you now have the choice to make: do I run or do I not run? So my mind says: why are you wasting time on the argument of well, I can choose to stay right here and get runned over because it's up to me, when no one will make that choice after they have seen for themselves that Godzilla exists and is headed straight for them. Who will be standing there having not made the choice to run? NO ONE! Unless there is a blind man who can't see.
Yeah ok, I get what you are trying to say here...but you can't really compare this to Godzilla.

But let's say we do make that comparison...WWPD (What would Pharaoh do...lol:p) He stood right there let it hit him...Knew exactly what was hitting him (Moses was warning and pleading with him every time), picked himself back up, got hit and knocked back down again, over and over...until it got tired of giving him chance after chance and finally destroyed him.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Where are you EG? In MD. They said 1-3. Then it became 3-6. Now they are saying 5-8 inches! That's a lot for here!
Central Ohio. We got rain fromt h storm this morning, gonna get snow tonight.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Actually...first day of spring is tomorrow, when the bulk of the snow will fall. They need to fire the groundhog or sumpin'...

Groundhog here said more winter. So he got it right.

And they keep saying today is fist day of spring. Tomorrow is first full day. (It starts sometime today)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I'll describe my mind on it. Think this: A huge monster Godzilla thing is coming toward you. You never believed this thing existed and thought it was just a made up story. You have a choice to try to run out of its path. Do you choose yes or no? Does ANYONE choose no? You have seen for yourself that this Godzilla thing is NOT made up as you believed and is REAL and you now have the choice to make: do I run or do I not run? So my mind says: why are you wasting time on the argument of well, I can choose to stay right here and get runned over because it's up to me, when no one will make that choice after they have seen for themselves that Godzilla exists and is headed straight for them. Who will be standing there having not made the choice to run? NO ONE! Unless there is a blind man who can't see.

You have not seen many movies. Many people stay because they do not think the danger is real. Or they are too scared to run.

Of course, we are talking about things unseen, It is hard to use an example like that, because more than likely everyone would run.. because they SEE the danger, the issue is, We do nto see hell, We do not see our sin or the condemnation which is against us because of sin, Non of us were alive when the cross happenbed,

We just trust God when he says they are true (faiht is the substance of things hoped for. The EVIDENCE of things NOT SEEN.

The world wants to trust in things they can see. Thats why they reject God.. and Jesus was just a good man,
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yeah ok, I get what you are trying to say here...but you can't really compare this to Godzilla.

But let's say we do make that comparison...WWPD (What would Pharaoh do...lol:p) He stood right there let it hit him...Knew exactly what was hitting him (Moses was warning and pleading with him every time), picked himself back up, got hit and knocked back down again, over and over...until it got tired of giving him chance after chance and finally destroyed him.
After all that, He still sent his army to its death.. Amen, Thats why Isreal and egypt is such a great example..
 
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Yeah ok, I get what you are trying to say here...but you can't really compare this to Godzilla.

But let's say we do make that comparison...WWPD (What would Pharaoh do...lol:p) He stood right there let it hit him...Knew exactly what was hitting him (Moses was warning and pleading with him every time), picked himself back up, got hit and knocked back down again, over and over...until it got tired of giving him chance after chance and finally destroyed him.
Pharoah as an example may not be great because God hardened his heart...so the example of the man who would choose to stand and say no I'm not going to run from Godzilla would need an added parameter if we use pharaoh as an example. And I'm sorry, I have no idea why what I'm saying is not coming out in sync with the movement of my lips. Its very odd...