Once again, how one came to God influences how they see and process it. I'm fine with you thinking, oh, but Jennie did make a choice, she just isn't aware of having done so. But to me, I had no choice but to not believe God existed until He was pleased to heal my blindness and show His Son to me, and then, after He did, I had no choice but to follow because where the heck else would I go? And why would I even want to go anywhere else? It's almost like echoes of, will you leave Me too? and me saying, where else would I go? You are the truth, You are eternal life. There IS no other place to want to go.
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It gets tougher to understand both sides, if you come to understand both Arminius and Calvin were dead when the arguments even started. Neither one of the dudes were arguing with each others. Those who believed in what they said were arguing.
Arminius agreers were called Remonstrants.
Here are their five articles, which is when TULIP showed up. It's an argument against it. (And good luck trying to understand it. It reads like a proposition in a voting ballot for Philadelphia. 20,000 legal words just to ask the voter if its okay to borrow more money for some project. lol)
But, now we're getting to same terms used, (somewhat.)
And we Reformers don't go looking at theology over God. It's systematic. Think of it like systematic housecleaning.
There is no particular reason housecleaning has to be systematized, except to avoid do-overs, and oops-missed-thats. I can vacuum the floor before dusting, and then both the dusting and vacuuming is done. BUT, if I do that, then I end up getting dust on the floor (because of gravity), thus making it inefficient. Either way both are done. Just not as effectively done.
We want to keep all of God's words together and make it a whole. In doing that each question asked, if answered, has to be proven by more than one part of the Bible. The whole is used, instead of piece-mealing parts. And you absolutely know why piece-mealing parts doesn't work or you wouldn't still be arguing Works V Grace. It is grace! Absolutely pro-grace! But that doesn't mean we sit on our butts for the rest of our lives. My peeps are Reformed because that question was already answered. It's systematically answered. AND I don't want to vacuum the floor TWICE by answering it, unanswering it, and then answering it again.
That's why we believe it. It holds together who God is, what he wants, and what is the purpose of all this in one homogenized understanding. It's all about God. He's the center!
With that said. Much of what you said about TULIP I agree with you on, only because you don't quite get what we mean by those words.
Want to go through it one by one? Of, course you're still free to disagree, but at least you'll know what you're really disagreeing with first.
Arminius agreers were called Remonstrants.
Here are their five articles, which is when TULIP showed up. It's an argument against it. (And good luck trying to understand it. It reads like a proposition in a voting ballot for Philadelphia. 20,000 legal words just to ask the voter if its okay to borrow more money for some project. lol)
But, now we're getting to same terms used, (somewhat.)
And we Reformers don't go looking at theology over God. It's systematic. Think of it like systematic housecleaning.
There is no particular reason housecleaning has to be systematized, except to avoid do-overs, and oops-missed-thats. I can vacuum the floor before dusting, and then both the dusting and vacuuming is done. BUT, if I do that, then I end up getting dust on the floor (because of gravity), thus making it inefficient. Either way both are done. Just not as effectively done.
We want to keep all of God's words together and make it a whole. In doing that each question asked, if answered, has to be proven by more than one part of the Bible. The whole is used, instead of piece-mealing parts. And you absolutely know why piece-mealing parts doesn't work or you wouldn't still be arguing Works V Grace. It is grace! Absolutely pro-grace! But that doesn't mean we sit on our butts for the rest of our lives. My peeps are Reformed because that question was already answered. It's systematically answered. AND I don't want to vacuum the floor TWICE by answering it, unanswering it, and then answering it again.
That's why we believe it. It holds together who God is, what he wants, and what is the purpose of all this in one homogenized understanding. It's all about God. He's the center!
With that said. Much of what you said about TULIP I agree with you on, only because you don't quite get what we mean by those words.
Want to go through it one by one? Of, course you're still free to disagree, but at least you'll know what you're really disagreeing with first.
L
You can always go back to not believing in God, but you choose not too. The day you heard about God just the word God your mind was making a choice you wanted to know what it was all about. You don't just start believing one day after waking up one morning and automatically started believed in God. that would be the case if your will is not your own from the get go.
You willing gave your will to God, which is perfectly acceptable.
You willing gave your will to God, which is perfectly acceptable.
D
I don't care if you believe what I believe or not. What I care about is not saying I believe something I don't believe, because I'm supposed to believe that because I'm Calvinist. (Examples: fatalism, hyper-grace, robots. Calvinists believe in D. None of the above. Real Calvinists. I don't get hypercalvinists any better than you do. lol)
And, believe it or not, I'm hearing you too. You don't believe your choice saved you. At least I'm getting that much. I'm still not getting the rest.
Besides a good laugh, (it is a funny meme), I really did want this to be about understanding what each of us believes, so we stop saying what others supposedly believe, when we DON'T! You don't believe you chose God, right? Does it not irritate you to death when people tell you that's what you do believe?
I really don't yet get what you believe, and you don't yet get what I believe, but at least I'm pretty sure we already handled choice. At least we got to the point of understanding what the other believes about choice. Neither one of us thinks there is no choice. At least we got that far, even if we never agree on where choice landed us.
We are getting somewhere, even if we may never agree with the overall theology of the other.
And, believe it or not, I'm hearing you too. You don't believe your choice saved you. At least I'm getting that much. I'm still not getting the rest.
Besides a good laugh, (it is a funny meme), I really did want this to be about understanding what each of us believes, so we stop saying what others supposedly believe, when we DON'T! You don't believe you chose God, right? Does it not irritate you to death when people tell you that's what you do believe?
I really don't yet get what you believe, and you don't yet get what I believe, but at least I'm pretty sure we already handled choice. At least we got to the point of understanding what the other believes about choice. Neither one of us thinks there is no choice. At least we got that far, even if we never agree on where choice landed us.
We are getting somewhere, even if we may never agree with the overall theology of the other.
It took 11 years for me to give my will to God. I'm stubborn.
But another man might spend that 11 years studying, BEFORE He meets God. And he was working to give his will to God for that entire time.
Heck, maybe I'm just not as intelligent as that man and so God had to do it a different way with me...
But another man might spend that 11 years studying, BEFORE He meets God. And he was working to give his will to God for that entire time.
Heck, maybe I'm just not as intelligent as that man and so God had to do it a different way with me...
D
LOL Foureaster! Good name for #4. (This is our fourth Nor'easter in three weeks.)
And, at least it was rain. We got ice. Nice sturdy coating on the sidewalk to have tomorrow's foot of snow lay on.
(Come on! It's March! Winter is supposed to end in March, not START!!!
)
Actually, we're fortunate to be Midlantians. New York and points north get nothing but snow each time.
And, at least it was rain. We got ice. Nice sturdy coating on the sidewalk to have tomorrow's foot of snow lay on.
(Come on! It's March! Winter is supposed to end in March, not START!!!
)Actually, we're fortunate to be Midlantians. New York and points north get nothing but snow each time.
Dunno...yeah, probably. My total surrender and trust took some years of struggle after I met Him and received the Spirit. From the sound of it, EG's struggle was all taken care of before he met God and received the Spirit.
He certainly knows how it happened with himself and I certainly know how it happened with my self.
He certainly knows how it happened with himself and I certainly know how it happened with my self.
E
It goes both ways, Don’t demand people are misrepresenting you when you misrepresent other people. You want to say you disagree with people. Thats fine, you want to mock them or mis judge them, then it goes to far.
I do not agree, in fact I HATE double predestination. I do not agree when people say regeneration comes before justification (it makes no sense biblically) You do not like it, thats fine,, but to attack me because I disagree with it, then tell others not to say things to you. There is a problem with that.
I do not agree, in fact I HATE double predestination. I do not agree when people say regeneration comes before justification (it makes no sense biblically) You do not like it, thats fine,, but to attack me because I disagree with it, then tell others not to say things to you. There is a problem with that.
I think it took you years of study before you met him because you said it to me once a few years ago. And yes, I remember you saying you found it very hard to believe that everyone did not have this same experience since everyone you had ever met did not have my experience. As for me thinking you had already worked a lot out before you met Him, that was just my own supposition. Apparently I was wrong.
D
I do agree with some of what you say...and believe me I am really trying to understand your point on the rest of it.
The choice thing really is a hang up for me though, and maybe I am not clearly understanding it or something, but I just don't get it. It sounds like well we had a choice, but we really didn't because God made the choice of whom he would save and whom he would not.
I do believe God knows our choice, and what choice everyone will make, but I don't think he made the choice for us.
I just can't see why he would have chose me and not someone else. He doesn't need me for anything, but I do need him for everything.
The choice thing really is a hang up for me though, and maybe I am not clearly understanding it or something, but I just don't get it. It sounds like well we had a choice, but we really didn't because God made the choice of whom he would save and whom he would not.
I do believe God knows our choice, and what choice everyone will make, but I don't think he made the choice for us.
I just can't see why he would have chose me and not someone else. He doesn't need me for anything, but I do need him for everything.
Now my older brothers thought more inside the box than I did/do, so they were smart enough to choose from anything within the realm of their experience of what "dinner" meant. So the nights she asked one of them, we usually got what they asked for. (Hamburger. Chicken. Hoagies. etc.) But I never got what I asked for. (Cake. Pie. Brownies.) Did we lack choice because Mom is the dictator? Or did we lack choice because one of us chose poorly? Was our choice taken away from us?
Well, mine certainly was. And with good reason too.
Mom could have let me have the cake for dinner. That certainly would have taught me something. (Yeah. Always been me, so all it would have taught me is cake is on the menu. lol)
In like kind, God gives us choice. AND, in like kind, God knows all the people on earth are Little Lynnie.
As for why he chose us? He told us why he chose us. He chose the weak, the poor, the stupid to confound the strong, the prosperous, the smart. And he chose for two reasons: To show forth his glory and his love.
Mom loved my brothers and me. She loved us enough to give us a healthy dinner, instead of whatever the Lynnie-mind could imagine for dinner. She was a kind woman, so she would have fed the neighborhood kids too. (And since she was den mother, girl scout leader, and substitute lunch-lady at our Catholic school, she really did feed a lot of kids in her day. And she fed as if she was their mom too.) But they weren't her kids.
The Lord feeds everyone, but he takes care of his kids with a very special care.
The only difference in my way of thinking is God is sovereign. He is in control of everything. Younger Lynnie wanted to know if he was real. She never wanted him in control of her life. But when he gave me the knowledge that he was real, he also gave me that irresistible grace to want to follow him forever.
I feel like I was the kid in the orphanage who dared ask, "Yeah, but are adoptive parents even real?" Even as a kid, I never thought of myself as someone anyone would ever want to have on purpose, so all I wanted to see was if there really was something called adoption, or was it just a myth to keep us from misbehaving too much. Surprise of a lifetime that the ideal parent -- no the parent that even went above ideal, all the way to perfect -- chose me!
D
Oops meant to comment on the other part of this as well. The smart ones, top dog's in society or wise in this world are usually prideful and that is why most don't accept him. Kinda like Pharaoh....lifted up in pride and not willing to humble themselves down. They'll do it there way or no way. So they reject him, but it is still their choice.
Not saying that is the case every time....just saying God looks at the heart and we have to be willing to humble down, call out to him, and submit to him through faith in Jesus.
Not saying that is the case every time....just saying God looks at the heart and we have to be willing to humble down, call out to him, and submit to him through faith in Jesus.
As I said, I just wanted to know God was real. (Think about it. I'm asking God to make himself as real as an actor/singer on a stage? The guy on the stage was real. He wasn't Jesus though. He was an actor who could sing. I didn't even go for a high level for the word "real." lol) If that's not arrogance, I don't know what is.
D
Don't be dissing Punxsutawney Phil. Have someone wake you during your deep hibernation and see how well you predict the weather. (I always feel bad for the rodent. He's yanked out of hibernation to a multitude of lights and people, someone yells something right next to him, a bunch of noisy clapping, and then drop him to the ground so he could go back to sleep. Rude! lol)
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I think it was over a decade ago by now, but I remember when a tsunami hit Sumatra and Java. Those islands have mountains. People saw it coming, but didn't have enough time to get to the top of the mountain. They sure did try though.
So did the elephants. And elephants run faster than people.
Some of the elephants actually yanked people in their way off their feet with their trunks and held them while they kept running. How shocking must that have been for the people that had that happen to them.
Do you think they slapped at the elephants to put them down? They had that choice too.
So did the elephants. And elephants run faster than people.
Some of the elephants actually yanked people in their way off their feet with their trunks and held them while they kept running. How shocking must that have been for the people that had that happen to them.
Do you think they slapped at the elephants to put them down? They had that choice too.
D
Yeah ok, I get what you are trying to say here...but you can't really compare this to Godzilla.
But let's say we do make that comparison...WWPD (What would Pharaoh do...lol) He stood right there let it hit him...Knew exactly what was hitting him (Moses was warning and pleading with him every time), picked himself back up, got hit and knocked back down again, over and over...until it got tired of giving him chance after chance and finally destroyed him.
But let's say we do make that comparison...WWPD (What would Pharaoh do...lol
) He stood right there let it hit him...Knew exactly what was hitting him (Moses was warning and pleading with him every time), picked himself back up, got hit and knocked back down again, over and over...until it got tired of giving him chance after chance and finally destroyed him.
D
I hate to go all USA for Africa on you, but We are the world! We didn't trust God any more than anyone else did...
Until he dinked us!
And once he dinked us, came trust!
HE did that! Not us!
I was blind, but now I see.
If I'm not mistaken, you're on the side of Grace in the Grace V. Works thread. In which case, I'll use the verses that come to mind for that argument to show this one:
Ephesians 2:1-10 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
That is the deal with me. I was not saved by my own doing. I am his workmanship. And his workmanship is tasked to do good works, not to be saved, but for the same reason a broom is made. He's making us useful instruments for a specific task.
And this is why it is important to me -- to avoid people thinking we control God. You are not one of those people who think they control God. Those people are called WoFers. But if you teach trust, or your heart, or some good quality earned you salvation, how far down that road is it until your students get to the point of thinking if they live just right, God owes them? You are not there.
I don't think you'll ever go there. But in teaching people that trust/faith/repentance/the right heart/whatever earned them, can't you see where some will take it to what else they can earn? If they live just right, they earn health, safety, prosperity.
It's why I prefer keeping God in the center. We used to be in the center, and that worked out horribly. The Lord belongs in the center.
Until he dinked us!
And once he dinked us, came trust!
HE did that! Not us!
I was blind, but now I see.
If I'm not mistaken, you're on the side of Grace in the Grace V. Works thread. In which case, I'll use the verses that come to mind for that argument to show this one:
Ephesians 2:1-10 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
That is the deal with me. I was not saved by my own doing. I am his workmanship. And his workmanship is tasked to do good works, not to be saved, but for the same reason a broom is made. He's making us useful instruments for a specific task.
And this is why it is important to me -- to avoid people thinking we control God. You are not one of those people who think they control God. Those people are called WoFers. But if you teach trust, or your heart, or some good quality earned you salvation, how far down that road is it until your students get to the point of thinking if they live just right, God owes them? You are not there.
I don't think you'll ever go there. But in teaching people that trust/faith/repentance/the right heart/whatever earned them, can't you see where some will take it to what else they can earn? If they live just right, they earn health, safety, prosperity.
It's why I prefer keeping God in the center. We used to be in the center, and that worked out horribly. The Lord belongs in the center.
D
[FONT="]Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.[/FONT]
Who chose the light? Name one person ever who did not do evil. Because it seems clear that this verse tells who chose the darkness (everyone) and who chose the light. (No one.) Soooo, who do you know that did not choose evil?
Who chose the light? Name one person ever who did not do evil. Because it seems clear that this verse tells who chose the darkness (everyone) and who chose the light. (No one.) Soooo, who do you know that did not choose evil?
