Everything I know about Jn 6:51-69

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Metternich

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2018
216
10
18
#1
A couple of things need to be established before we get into the text in question. First, recorded in the Gospels in a couple of places Jesus says something figurative and his disciples misunderstand and take him literally. Jesus does not leave them in ignorance but corrects them. The first example occurs in Mt 16:5-12. The disciples have forgotten to bring bread on their journey. Jesus then tells them to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, The disciples think he has said this because they forgot to bring bread. Jesus then explains clearly that he is not talking about bread but the teachings of the Pharisees. The next example is Jn 4:31-34. Here again Jesus speaks about food in a figurative way. The disciples encourage Jesus to eat something. Jesus says he has food to eat. The disciples think someone else had brought him food. Jesus then tells them that his food is to do the will of his Father.


Second, the most controversial thing Jesus says in this discourse is that we must eat his flesh to have eternal life. This is biblical metaphorical language. It means to violently assault someone. Here are some examples.


Is 9:18-20
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For wickedness burns like a fire,
it consumes briers and thorns;
it kindles the thickets of the forest,
and they roll upward in a column of smoke.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts
the land is burned,
and the people are like fuel for the fire;
no man spares his brother.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]They snatch on the right, but are still hungry,
and they devour on the left, but are not satisfied;
each devours his neighbor’s flesh,


Is 49:26
[SUP]26 [/SUP]I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh,
and they shall be drunk with their own blood as with wine.
Then all flesh shall know
that I am the Lord your Savior,
and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.”


Micah 3:2-3
[SUP]2 [/SUP]you who hate the good and love the evil,
who tear the skin from off my people,
and their flesh from off their bones;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]who eat the flesh of my people,
and flay their skin from off them,
and break their bones in pieces,
and chop them up like meat in a kettle,
like flesh in a caldron.






Third, is the word “eat”. This passage has numerous occurrences of this word or a form of it. Although it is translated as eat there are two different greek words used. One is phago. This is the ordinary word used for human eating and in this passage the most used. The other greek word is trogo. It means to gnaw, crunch, chew raw vegetables. It is also used for animals feeding. You can see the detailed definitions below from the Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon


5315 ἐσθίω [phago /fag·o/] v. A primary verb (used as an alternate of 2068 in certain tenses); GK 2266; 97 occurrences; AV translates as “eat” 94 times, and “meat” three times. 1 to eat. 2 to eat (consume) a thing. 2a to take food, eat a meal. 2b metaph. to devour, consume.
Strong, J. (1995). Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. Woodside Bible Fellowship.


5176 τρώγω [trogo /tro·go/] v. Probably strengthened from a collateral form of the base of 5134 and 5147 through the idea of corrosion or wear, or perhaps rather of a base of 5167 and 5149 through the idea of a crunching sound; TDNT 8:236; TDNTA 1191; GK 5592; Six occurrences; AV translates as “eat” six times. 1 to gnaw, crunch, chew raw vegetables or fruits (as nuts, almonds). 1a of animals feeding. 1b of men. 2 to eat.
Strong, J. (1995). Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. Woodside Bible Fellowship.






Now let us consider Jn chapter 6 where Jesus talks about food everyone of his followers must eat to have eternal life. Here is Jn 6:51-69.


[SUP]51 [/SUP]I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats(phago) of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
[SUP]52 [/SUP]The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat(phago)?” [SUP]53 [/SUP]So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat(phago) the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; [SUP]54 [/SUP]he who eats(trogo) my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. [SUP]55 [/SUP]For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. [SUP]56 [/SUP]He who eats(trogo) my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. [SUP]57 [/SUP]As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats(trogo) me will live because of me. [SUP]58 [/SUP]This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats(trogo) this bread will live for ever.” [SUP]59 [/SUP]This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.
[SUP]60 [/SUP]Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” [SUP]61 [/SUP]But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? [SUP]62 [/SUP]Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before? [SUP]63 [/SUP]It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. [SUP]64 [/SUP]But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him. [SUP]65 [/SUP]And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
[SUP]66 [/SUP]After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. [SUP]67 [/SUP]Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also wish to go away?” [SUP]68 [/SUP]Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; [SUP]69 [/SUP]and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”


At first Jesus uses the ordinary word for eat, phago, Then in v54 he switches to a stronger word for eat, trogo, and to continue to use it for the rest of the discourse.


If Jesus was trying to teach something else why would he use language that means to violently assault someone.


In verse 51 Jesus says he is the bread that came down from heaven and the bread that he would give for the life of the world was his flesh. Now I can understand how some one might not be sure what Jesus meant by this. They would need for him to elaborate. But in v 52 the Jews take him literally to mean they had to eat his actual flesh. I am sure they imagined walking up to Jesus and taking a bite out of his arm and then having to chew it up and swallow it. This is a horrifying and disgusting thought. And besides how many people could he feed? A few hundred and he would be all gone.
In v 53 Jesus does not explain that he is speaking figuratively but doubles down and in the most clear and concise manner says [SUP]53 [/SUP]So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;


Jesus goes on to repeat this teaching by my count 4 times. Then in v 60 and 66 it says many of his disciples fell away over this teaching. Remember Jesus is God and he could read the thoughts of everyone of these disciples. He knew they understood him correctly so there was no need to correct them. What is going on here is that Jesus is testing the faith of his disciples and apostles. Just like God tested Abraham several times and Abraham says to himself “God says it and God does not lie so therefore I believe.” Jesus could have told them how he would do this. He would work a miracle at the Last Supper and change bread into his flesh and wine into his blood. It would still look and taste like bread and wine but would actually be his flesh and blood. They did not have the faith of Abraham. Either they did not believe it was God speaking to them or they did not believe in the truthfulness of God.


Many non-Catholics say that in v 63 Jesus is telling the crowd that he is speaking figuratively. When Jesus uses the word flesh here he is not talking about his actual own flesh but in the sense St Paul does in Rom 8:3 [SUP]3 [/SUP]For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,. Furthermore no where in scripture is the word spirit used to mean metaphorical or figurative. If this were true he let many disciples walk away and lose their salvation over a misunderstanding. Jesus wants to save everyone and he would not do that. Remember the disciples leave in v 66 which is after v63 where some say Jesus says he is speaking figuratively.


You might ask why Jesus would have us do such a thing. Well at Passover everyone must eat some of the lamb. John the Baptist calls Jesus the Lamb of God. For whatever reason God had the Jews eat the lamb it is probably something similar with the flesh of Jesus.


Are you convinced? If not would you think differently if everyone could consecrate the bread and wine. Is it a dislike of priests and bishops holding you back. There are some bad priests and bishops. One hand-picked by Jesus betrayed him and another denied him 3 times. It is no different today. Even though man be faithless God is faithful. Even though a priests sins may be great God still gives him the power to consecrate the bread and wine to spiritually nourish his people.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,344
12,870
113
#2
Are you convinced? If not would you think differently if everyone could consecrate the bread and wine. Is it a dislike of priests and bishops holding you back. There are some bad priests and bishops. One hand-picked by Jesus betrayed him and another denied him 3 times. It is no different today. Even though man be faithless God is faithful. Even though a priests sins may be great God still gives him the power to consecrate the bread and wine to spiritually nourish his people.
So what you are proposing is that the Roman Catholic Mass is scriptural, and that even evil priests can consecrate the elements so that they are transubstantiated and literally become the body and blood of Christ. You won't find much support for this idea among non-Catholics.
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
63
#3
So what you are proposing is that the Roman Catholic Mass is scriptural, and that even evil priests can consecrate the elements so that they are transubstantiated and literally become the body and blood of Christ. You won't find much support for this idea among non-Catholics.
No, he won't...
 
Nov 24, 2017
1,004
31
0
#4
Second, the most controversial thing Jesus says in this discourse is that we must eat his flesh to have eternal life. This is biblical metaphorical language. It means to violently assault someone. Here are some examples.
Jesus is talking about the word of God. (Deuteronomy 8:3; Matthew 4:4; Luke 4:4; Jeremiah 15:16; Amos 8:11; 1 Corinthians 3:2; Revelation 10:9-10)
 

Metternich

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2018
216
10
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#5
This caused many of his disciples to fall away? They were not unbelievers but could not handle this new teaching.
 
Nov 24, 2017
1,004
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#6
That is because Jesus was speaking spiritual things and not carnal.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63

 
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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,034
13,041
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#7
Jesus is the Bread of Life. Just as bread nourishes our physical bodies, Jesus gives and sustains eternal life to all believers. "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:35) As He was accustomed, Jesus used figurative language to emphasize these great spiritual truths. Jesus explains the sense of the entire passage when He says, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."(John 6:63)

The literal interpretation is absurd, leading to cannibalism and the drinking of blood contrary to the commandment of God. No eating of any flesh can give spiritual life. By faith we partake of Christ, and the benefits of His bodily sacrifice on the cross and the merits of His shed blood, receiving and enjoying eternal life.

Eating and drinking is not with the mouth and the digestive organs of our bodies, but the reception of God’s grace by believing in Christ, as He makes abundantly clear by repeating the same truths both in metaphoric and plain language. Compare for example the following two verses:


“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life” (verse 47).

“He who eats this bread will live forever” (verse 58).

“He who believes” in Christ is equivalent to “he who eats this bread” because the result is the same, eternal life. We see the same parallel between verses 40 and 54:

“Everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day” (verse 40).

“Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day” (verse 54).

John 6 does not afford any support to the false Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation. On the contrary, it is an emphatic statement on the primacy of faith as the means by which we receive the grace of God. Jesus is the Bread of Life; we eat of Him and are satisfied when we believe in Him.

Bread represents the "staff of life." Sustenance. That which essential to sustain life. Just as bread or sustenance is necessary to maintain physical life, Jesus is all the sustenance necessary for spiritual life.

The source of physical life is blood -- "life is in the blood." As with the bread, just as blood is the empowering or source of life physically, Jesus is all the source of spiritual life necessary.
 

Metternich

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2018
216
10
18
#8
Jesus is the Bread of Life. Just as bread nourishes our physical bodies, Jesus gives and sustains eternal life to all believers. "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:35) As He was accustomed, Jesus used figurative language to emphasize these great spiritual truths. Jesus explains the sense of the entire passage when He says, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."(John 6:63)

The literal interpretation is absurd, leading to cannibalism and the drinking of blood contrary to the commandment of God. No eating of any flesh can give spiritual life. By faith we partake of Christ, and the benefits of His bodily sacrifice on the cross and the merits of His shed blood, receiving and enjoying eternal life.

Eating and drinking is not with the mouth and the digestive organs of our bodies, but the reception of God’s grace by believing in Christ, as He makes abundantly clear by repeating the same truths both in metaphoric and plain language. Compare for example the following two verses:


“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life” (verse 47).

“He who eats this bread will live forever” (verse 58).

“He who believes” in Christ is equivalent to “he who eats this bread” because the result is the same, eternal life. We see the same parallel between verses 40 and 54:

“Everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day” (verse 40).

“Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day” (verse 54).

John 6 does not afford any support to the false Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation. On the contrary, it is an emphatic statement on the primacy of faith as the means by which we receive the grace of God. Jesus is the Bread of Life; we eat of Him and are satisfied when we believe in Him.

Bread represents the "staff of life." Sustenance. That which essential to sustain life. Just as bread or sustenance is necessary to maintain physical life, Jesus is all the sustenance necessary for spiritual life.

The source of physical life is blood -- "life is in the blood." As with the bread, just as blood is the empowering or source of life physically, Jesus is all the source of spiritual life necessary.

Any thoughts on why he stops using phago and starts using trogo?
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,719
155
63
#9
The sacrificial mass is a non bloody sacrifice, which is offered up for sins, and the priest claims to have the power and authority to bring Jesus down from His throne... that Jesus obeys the priest, and is then offered up repeatedly in each mass. But it's a complete rejection of Jesus and His ONE perfect sacrifice for sins forever. By adding to the work of Jesus on the cross one is then saying that Jesus alone is not sufficient to save anyone.

It reminds me of this scripture....

Hebrews 10:11-18:

"And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin"[/QUOTE]
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,344
12,870
113
#10
The sacrificial mass is a non bloody sacrifice, which is offered up for sins, and the priest claims to have the power and authority to bring Jesus down from His throne...
This is correct. The Mass is deemed to be a REAL non-bloody sacrifice of the REAL Christ as confirmed by the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia:

Before dealing with the proofs of revelation afforded by the Bible and tradition, certain preliminary points must first be decided. Of these the most important is that the Church intends the Mass to be regarded as a "true and proper sacrifice", and will not tolerate the idea that the sacrifice is identical with Holy Communion. That is the sense of a clause from the Council of Trent (Sess. XXII, can. 1): "If any one saith that in the Mass a true and proper sacrifice is not offered to God; or, that to be offered is nothing else but that Christ is given us to eat; let him be anathema" (Denzinger, "Enchir.", 10th ed. 1908, n. 948)...

With Irenaeus of Lyons there comes a turning point, in as much as he, with conscious clearness, first puts forward "bread and wine" as objective gift offerings, but at the same time maintains that these elements become the "body and blood" of the Word through consecration, and thus by simply combining these two thoughts we have the Catholic Mass of today. According to him (Against Heresies IV.18.4) it is the Church alone "that offers the pure oblation"...From Augustine onwards the current of the Church's tradition flows smoothly along in a well-ordered channel, without check or disturbance, through the Middle Ages to our own time. Even the powerful attempt made to stem it through the Reformation had no effect...

What they [the Reformers] most bitterly opposed was the Catholic doctrine that the Mass is a sacrifice not only of praise and thanksgiving, but also of impetration and atonement, whose fruits may benefit others, while it is evident that a sacrament as such can profit merely the recipient. Here the Council of Trent interposed with a definition of faith (Sess. XXII, can. iii): "If any one saith, that the Mass is only a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving. . . but not a propitiatory sacrifice; or, that it profits only the recipient, and that it ought not to be offered for the living and the dead for sins, punishments, satisfactions, and other necessities; let him be anathema" (
Denzinger, n. 950). In this canon, which gives a summary of all the sacrificial effects in order, the synod emphasizes the propitiatory and impetratory nature of the sacrifice. Propitiation (propitiatio) and petition (impetratio) are distinguishable from each other, in as much as the latter appeals to the goodness and the former to the mercy of God.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,645
13,120
113
#11
we don't get to John 6 without passing through John 4 :)

But He said to them, “I have food to eat that you know nothing about.
Then His disciples said to each other, “Could someone have brought Him food?”
My food,” said Jesus,
is to do the will of Him who sent me and to finish His work."
(John 4:32-34)
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,125
135
63
#12
I believe that Jesus is speaking of feeding our spirit with the Word. Jesus is the Word and once saved our spirits need the nourishment only Jesus can provide.
 

Gabriel2020

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
1,099
41
48
#13
Even though I am 62 years old in the flesh, I was spiritually born in 1987, and I am 31 years old. I have grown from a baby to a full adult by nourishing of the word by the Holy Spirit.