End times

[PlainWord]

A-F,

Let's address one important thing, the resurrection. As we all know, Christ raised 3 people up from the dead during His ministry on earth. Were any of them resurrected? Lazarus was dead 4 days, which of course was longer than Christ's 3 days. Yet, was Lazarus resurrected or simply raised from the dead? We know Christ was resurrected and since Christ spoke of the resurrection as a future event mere hours before His death, can we assume that none of the 3 He raised previously were resurrected? If so, what was the difference between Christ's resurrection and the raising of the previous 3?

As you ponder that, what type of body was Christ resurrected to (or into)? Here's a hint from Luke 24:

Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”​

Since a spirit does not have flesh and bones, was Christ resurrected into His spiritual body? Flesh and bones decay, right? In other words, they become corrupted and return to dust. We know God did not allow Christ's body to see corruption (Acts 2:31), right? Can we infer that everyone else's dead body does see corruption? If so, and since corruption cannot enter the Kingdom of God, the flesh body is done, when we die. Since Christ was resurrected back into His physical flesh and bones body, when did He receive His spiritual body? What would that look like to a mortal on earth assuming it can be seen?

Back to the resurrection of man, into what body do we get resurrected into? Physical or Spiritual? If you answer spiritual, which realm would you be in, the physical or the spiritual realm? If spiritual realm, would you expect a mortal man on earth to witness the event?

As you consider these questions, please consider another. If a spiritual being were to enter into our physical realm, an angel for instance, what form would that angel take?

Acts 1: And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, [SUP]11 [/SUP]who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven?​

Heb 13: Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels.

Do you suppose that a spiritual being who enters our physical realm must take on our physical form and body? Christ did. The examples above appear to have also. Conversely, once we enter the spiritual realm, what format would we have to be in?​

​

 

[PlainWord]

A-F,

You are right that most things happened by 70 ad, but not everything.

The reality of the middle east will become clearer as we come closer to the day that Jerusalem will fall. 3 1/2 days later Jesus will come for His kingdom. Then it is the end.

It will become crystal clear when Israel loses at the Battle of Armageddon.

Then it will be plain that all other prophecies have failed and it is the end.

If you and I are still alive, we will need all the faith and courage we can get.

We shall see His face.

The day of the 7th trumpet is fast approaching, it is almost here. And there enemies beheld them.

​

Yikes. This is 100% wrong but I have to run now.

 

[garee]

Let's address one important thing, the resurrection. As we all know, Christ raised 3 people up from the dead during His ministry on earth. Were any of them resurrected? Lazarus was dead 4 days, which of course was longer than Christ's 3 days. Yet, was Lazarus resurrected or simply raised from the dead? We know Christ was resurrected and since Christ spoke of the resurrection as a future event mere hours before His death, can we assume that none of the 3 He raised previously were resurrected? If so, what was the difference between Christ's resurrection and the raising of the previous 3?

As you ponder that, what type of body was Christ resurrected to (or into)? Here's a hint from Luke 24:

Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

All three were examples used in parables as one time demonstration of the first resurrection of the Son of man .The demonstration as the unseen promise of pouring out His Spirit on corrupted flesh and blood.

No one has received their new body.Which it appears will be either male nor female , Jew or Gentile but called the wife of Christ as His chaste virgin bride.

God is not a man as us never could be. After the promised demonstration he made it clear that we continue to walk by faith the unseen eternal and not after the temporal flesh . The temporal served its one time purpose to point the eternal not seen fulling the Old testement prophecy .

We are not to seek after a fleshly Jesus who himself declared his blood profits for nothing other than a one time demonstration..

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new..2Co 5:16

 

[iamsoandso]

I just don't get it, it says "as you see I have",lol but the bulk seem to think he does no longer have that same body (flesh and bones) even though the angel says in Acts 1:11 he would return in the "same manner"

 

[Deade]

I just don't get it, it says "as you see I have",lol but the bulk seem to think he does no longer have that same body (flesh and bones) even though the angel says in Acts 1:11 he would return in the "same manner"

No, no, in the same manner means in the same place coming out of the same sky. Will His body look like it did when He ascended, from the Mount of Olives, or will it be brighter? He did not look glorious when he left.

I think Jesus' body might have been for recognition purposes. Also, to fulfill the prophecy that His body would not see corruption: Psalms 16:10: "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." In any case I cannot see Jesus going for all eternity with those holes in His body.

Paul even suggested that He won't look the same: 2 Corinthians 5:16:"Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we Him no more." I think if we were to lay eyes on Jesus today, He would reflect the glory of the Father.

References:

Revelation 1:12-16: “And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.”

Matthew 16:27: “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”

Matthew 24:30: “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

Matthew 25:31: “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:”

Luke 21:27: “And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

Mark 8:38: “Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”

Mark 13:26: “And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.”

John 17:5: “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”

Revelation 19:11-16: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, with that it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

 

[abcdef]

A-F,

Let's address one important thing, the resurrection. As we all know, Christ raised 3 people up from the dead during His ministry on earth. Were any of them resurrected? Lazarus was dead 4 days, which of course was longer than Christ's 3 days. Yet, was Lazarus resurrected or simply raised from the dead? We know Christ was resurrected and since Christ spoke of the resurrection as a future event mere hours before His death, can we assume that none of the 3 He raised previously were resurrected? If so, what was the difference between Christ's resurrection and the raising of the previous 3?

As you ponder that, what type of body was Christ resurrected to (or into)? Here's a hint from Luke 24:

Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”​

Since a spirit does not have flesh and bones, was Christ resurrected into His spiritual body? Flesh and bones decay, right? In other words, they become corrupted and return to dust. We know God did not allow Christ's body to see corruption (Acts 2:31), right? Can we infer that everyone else's dead body does see corruption? If so, and since corruption cannot enter the Kingdom of God, the flesh body is done, when we die. Since Christ was resurrected back into His physical flesh and bones body, when did He receive His spiritual body? What would that look like to a mortal on earth assuming it can be seen?

Back to the resurrection of man, into what body do we get resurrected into? Physical or Spiritual? If you answer spiritual, which realm would you be in, the physical or the spiritual realm? If spiritual realm, would you expect a mortal man on earth to witness the event?

As you consider these questions, please consider another. If a spiritual being were to enter into our physical realm, an angel for instance, what form would that angel take?

Acts 1: And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, [SUP]11 [/SUP]who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven?​

Heb 13: Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels.

Do you suppose that a spiritual being who enters our physical realm must take on our physical form and body? Christ did. The examples above appear to have also. Conversely, once we enter the spiritual realm, what format would we have to be in?​

​

Brother PW,

Rev 11:12, "...; and their enemies beheld them,"

Now you tell me, What kind of body is shown being taken to heaven in this verse? Physical/material? Or spiritual? Or both? Or something that we just cannot understand at this time?

===

 

[iamsoandso]

No, no, in the same manner means in the same place coming out of the same sky. Will His body look like it did when He ascended, from the Mount of Olives, or will it be brighter? He did not look glorious when he left.

I think Jesus' body might have been for recognition purposes. Also, to fulfill the prophecy that His body would not see corruption: Psalms 16:10: "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." In any case I cannot see Jesus going for all eternity with those holes in His body.

Paul even suggested that He won't look the same: 2 Corinthians 5:16:"Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we Him no more." I think if we were to lay eyes on Jesus today, He would reflect the glory of the Father.

References:

Revelation 1:12-16: “And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.”

Matthew 16:27: “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”

Matthew 24:30: “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

Matthew 25:31: “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:”

Luke 21:27: “And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

Mark 8:38: “Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”

Mark 13:26: “And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.”

John 17:5: “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”

Revelation 19:11-16: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, with that it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

I see him as the reflection of the father even before the nail holes and wound in his side John 14:8...

If Paul was speaking of Jesus not returning as flesh and bone like the angel said the there is no such thing as a second coming like in comparison to his first coming because he always was here even before he was born of Mary but not flesh and bone...thats I think the matter of some believing he came in the flesh,born of a virgin and some not believing it...

 

[PlainWord]

I just don't get it, it says "as you see I have",lol but the bulk seem to think he does no longer have that same body (flesh and bones) even though the angel says in Acts 1:11 he would return in the "same manner"

Actually, the passage does not say that. Please read it again.

This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

It is very important to see that it is how He went into heaven is the way He returns, not how He was on Earth before He ascended. This is a very important distinction to understand. Christ returns as the FULLY GLORIFIED SON OF GOD, not as a man!! He is a man no longer, nor ever will be again. Christ's return was to be not as a humble mere mortal as He was the first time. Rather, He returns with all of His glory, power and might as the God and Creator of the Universe to exact divine vengeance upon the wicked (apostate Jews) of the first century and to reward His faithful believers. Look at how His return (Parousia) was described and these are just a few examples:

and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power

​

who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, ​

[SUP]4 [/SUP]having become so much better than the angels​

These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power​

When Christ returned to the spiritual realm (heaven), His appearance to us on Earth would be an extremely bright light, not as a man. The passage in Acts 1 shows the scene of Jesus, as a man, ascending upward ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN aka, "the glory cloud" not our white puffy clouds in the sky. At some point the spiritual realm (which is all around us) opened and He passed through from our physical realm back to the spiritual realm. Then the passage in Acts 1 stops. But we see what happens next from Daniel 7:

“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,​

Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,​

Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one​

Which shall not be destroyed.​

This is the way Jesus was after returning to Heaven and this is the way Jesus was when He appeared (Parousia) to Saul on the Road to Damascus.

at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me.​

This is the way He is described in Rev 18:

After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen​

...

This Bright Light was described by Josephus as His Presence returned to execute judgment to that faithless and perverse generation. His presence illuminated the earth (Israel) just as we were told it would and just as Josephus recorded it. Here it is, compare what Josephus records to what the Bible says.

on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise.

​

This was the time of the end (of Israel) foretold in Dan 12 and Rev 8 and it matches perfectly.

​

And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. ​

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.​

​

We have the earth quaking, and a great noise, a shout. Heaven was quite for a half hour, the same period of time the Light lit up the temple and countryside as recorded by Josephus.

When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. ​

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.​

 

[PlainWord]

Brother PW,

Rev 11:12, "...; and their enemies beheld them,"

Now you tell me, What kind of body is shown being taken to heaven in this verse? Physical/material? Or spiritual? Or both? Or something that we just cannot understand at this time?

===

Thanks for answering none of my questions good brother. Perhaps they were too spread out. Here they are again. Please answer each one and I'll do the same to your new one.

1. Were any of the 3 (including Lazarus who had been dead 4 days) Christ raised resurrected?
2. What type of body was Christ resurrected into?
3. Did Christ's body see corruption?
4. If Christ was raised into a physical body, when did He receive His spiritual body?
5. How does a spiritual body appear when seen from the physical realm?
6. What body do we get resurrected into?
7. What form do angels take when they enter and are seen in our physical realm by mortals?
8. When we enter the spiritual realm, what format will our bodies be in?

 

[PlainWord]

All three were examples used in parables as one time demonstration of the first resurrection of the Son of man .The demonstration as the unseen promise of pouring out His Spirit on corrupted flesh and blood.

No one has received their new body.Which it appears will be either male nor female , Jew or Gentile but called the wife of Christ as His chaste virgin bride.

God is not a man as us never could be. After the promised demonstration he made it clear that we continue to walk by faith the unseen eternal and not after the temporal flesh . The temporal served its one time purpose to point the eternal not seen fulling the Old testement prophecy .

We are not to seek after a fleshly Jesus who himself declared his blood profits for nothing other than a one time demonstration..

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new..2Co 5:16

Brother,

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new..2Co 5:16​

Now I have some questions for you:

1. Have old things passed away yet?
2. Have all things become new yet?
3. What tense is used in the above passage; past, present or future?
4. What does it mean to be a "new creature?"
5. What change(s) are there between an old creature and a new creature?

Please be as specific and detailed as you can. Thanks.

 

[PlainWord]

Brother PW,

Rev 11:12, "...; and their enemies beheld them,"

Now you tell me, What kind of body is shown being taken to heaven in this verse? Physical/material? Or spiritual? Or both? Or something that we just cannot understand at this time?

===

Brother A-F,

Let's see if we can figure this out together by comparing scripture to scripture:

Case #1:

Lk 24: Then, as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen!​

Case #2:

Rev 11: Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

Case #3:

Lk 7: Then He came and touched the open coffin, and those who carried him stood still. And He said, “Young man, I say to you, arise.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]So he who was dead sat up and began to speak. And He presented him to his mother.

Case #4:​

Lk 8: He said, “Do not weep; she is not dead, but sleeping.” [SUP]53 [/SUP]And they ridiculed Him, knowing that she was dead.[SUP]54 [/SUP]But He put them all outside, took her by the hand and called, saying, “Little girl, arise.” [SUP]55 [/SUP]Then her spirit returned, and she arose immediately.

Case #5:

Jn 11: He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” [SUP]44 [/SUP]And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with grave clothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”

Case #6:

Acts 9: But Peter put them all out, and knelt down and prayed. And turning to the body he said, “Tabitha, arise.” And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. [SUP]41 [/SUP]Then he gave her his hand and lifted her up; and when he had called the saints and widows, he presented her alive.​

Case #7:

Acts 20: And in a window sat a certain young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep. He was overcome by sleep; and as Paul continued speaking, he fell down from the third story and was taken up dead. [SUP]10 [/SUP]But Paul went down, fell on him, and embracing him said, “Do not trouble yourselves, for his life is in him.”

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Now when he had come up, had broken bread and eaten, and talked a long while, even till daybreak, he departed. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And they brought the young man in alive, and they were not a little comforted.

Case #8:

1 Kings 17: Then he cried out to the Lord and said, “O Lord my God, have You also brought tragedy on the widow with whom I lodge, by killing her son?” [SUP]21 [/SUP]And he stretched himself out on the child three times, and cried out to the Lord and said, “O Lord my God, I pray, let this child’s soul come back to him.” [SUP]22 [/SUP]Then the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived.

Case #9:

2 Kings 4: When Elisha came into the house, there was the child, lying dead on his bed. [SUP]33 [/SUP]He went in therefore, shut the door behind the two of them, and prayed to the Lord. [SUP]34 [/SUP]And he went up and lay on the child, and put his mouth on his mouth, his eyes on his eyes, and his hands on his hands; and he stretched himself out on the child, and the flesh of the child became warm. [SUP]35 [/SUP]He returned and walked back and forth in the house, and again went up and stretched himself out on him; then the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.

Case 10:

2 Kings 13: Then Elisha died, and they buried him. And the raiding bands from Moab invaded the land in the spring of the year. [SUP]21 [/SUP]So it was, as they were burying a man, that suddenly they spied a band of raiders; and they put the man in the tomb of Elisha; and when the man was let down and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived and stood on his feet.​

Case 11:

Mt 27: and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; [SUP]53 [/SUP]and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.​

So we have 11 instances of people coming back to life and that doesn't count the Valley of Dry Bones (Ez 37) which I think is a metaphor. Sometimes it's one person, sometimes its multiple people. Some were in the OT, some in the NT. Some before Christ died, some after Christ died. In 9 of the 11 cases there is no evidence of a trip to heaven for the newly raised/resurrected. Only in two cases do we have confirmation of a trip to heaven following Christ's resurrection; the 2 witnesses of Rev 11 and of course Christ, but Christ's took place many days after He raised while the 2 witnesses went to heaven immediately.

Of the 11 cases, which were resurrected and which were merely resuscitated and what is the difference between a resurrected and a resuscitated being? I have some thoughts on this and would love yours.





​

 

[iamsoandso]

Actually, the passage does not say that. Please read it again.

This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

It is very important to see that it is how He went into heaven is the way He returns, not how He was on Earth before He ascended. This is a very important distinction to understand. Christ returns as the FULLY GLORIFIED SON OF GOD, not as a man!! He is a man no longer, nor ever will be again. Christ's return was to be not as a humble mere mortal as He was the first time. Rather, He returns with all of His glory, power and might as the God and Creator of the Universe to exact divine vengeance upon the wicked (apostate Jews) of the first century and to reward His faithful believers. Look at how His return (Parousia) was described and these are just a few examples:

and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power

​

who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, ​

[SUP]4 [/SUP]having become so much better than the angels​

These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power​

When Christ returned to the spiritual realm (heaven), His appearance to us on Earth would be an extremely bright light, not as a man. The passage in Acts 1 shows the scene of Jesus, as a man, ascending upward ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN aka, "the glory cloud" not our white puffy clouds in the sky. At some point the spiritual realm (which is all around us) opened and He passed through from our physical realm back to the spiritual realm. Then the passage in Acts 1 stops. But we see what happens next from Daniel 7:

“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,​

Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,​

Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one​

Which shall not be destroyed.​

This is the way Jesus was after returning to Heaven and this is the way Jesus was when He appeared (Parousia) to Saul on the Road to Damascus.

at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me.​

This is the way He is described in Rev 18:

After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen​

...

This Bright Light was described by Josephus as His Presence returned to execute judgment to that faithless and perverse generation. His presence illuminated the earth (Israel) just as we were told it would and just as Josephus recorded it. Here it is, compare what Josephus records to what the Bible says.

on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise.

​

This was the time of the end (of Israel) foretold in Dan 12 and Rev 8 and it matches perfectly.

​

And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. ​

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.​

​

We have the earth quaking, and a great noise, a shout. Heaven was quite for a half hour, the same period of time the Light lit up the temple and countryside as recorded by Josephus.

When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. ​

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.​

lol, I have seen this before on the www being taught and afterward clicked and dragged into many threads about this that Josephus wrote in wars 6.3.16 Josephus: Of the War, Book VI but he(Josephus) states in wars 6.3.15 "BEFORE the rebellion,and BEFORE the commotions that preceded the war" which as we know began several years before ad66 (when the siege began) so Josephus is at this point in wars 6.3 speaking of an event (prior to the rebellion and commotions) so the year would be ad63-64 ish(while Nero was alive)...

The thing about it is that most of the apostles,disciples ect. would have also still been alive in ad64-65 and do not mention any of the signs that Josephus list in wars 6.3 as the Lords second return. So if the apostles were still alive in the time fame of the events Josephus is referring to in wars 6.3 and they did not recognize it as the Lords return then the apostles themselves would be who did not understand as in Daniel 12(I don't think so) instead I think would have written in the letters they wrote at that time that those things were the Lords return(but they didn't)...

I suppose this is why wars 6.3.15 is always left out and not copy and pasted along with the text from Josephus which is to avoid the part where it is speaking of events that were said took place before the rebellion eve began. I included the text of wars 6 to so that you could examine it more closely and that others could also and it then would be known that this part of wars is often misinterpreted as such(to so that none of us are left not understanding)...

 

[abcdef]

Thanks for answering none of my questions good brother. Perhaps they were too spread out. Here they are again. Please answer each one and I'll do the same to your new one.

Brother PW,

Yes they were spread out, this looks better, thanks.


1. Were any of the 3 (including Lazarus who had been dead 4 days) Christ raised resurrected?

1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24, says that there are only 2 resurrections. Jesus #1, and #2 those who are His at His coming. These 2 resurrections as shown here are followed by eternal life. Since they were not raised to eternal life, they had to die a physical death again, then I would say that they were not resurrected as Jesus was.

It also states that Jesus is the first one resurrected, so any one before Him was not resurrected, in the sense described in 1 Cor.


2. What type of body was Christ resurrected into?

His physical body.


3. Did Christ's body see corruption?

No.


4. If Christ was raised into a physical body, when did He receive His spiritual body?

Jesus always had a spiritual body, even before creation of this universe. This spirit returned to the physical body.


5. How does a spiritual body appear when seen from the physical realm?

It seems that it must take a form that would reflect the light so that out physical eyes can see them.

Examples would be humans and animals.


6. What body do we get resurrected into?

1 Cor 15:5. It is not within our understanding and is useless to try to understand the details beyond what is explained.

An acorn falls to the ground and a tree grows. The acorn is the tree. The tree is the acorn.

The tree is within the acorn. The acorn does not die or the tree will not grow. But the life that is in the acorn must cease to be a seed and become a tree.

It becomes a tree when it breaks the shell and grows to the light. The spirit pattern of the tree was in the acorn. When the tree grows, it is still the acorn, but is now changed.

-------

The reason why Jesus could do miracles, like walk on water or make people whole, was because He understood the relationship between the physical realm and the spiritual realm. He would know being the creator.

The relationship between faith and the material world, moving mountains, symbolically.


7. What form do angels take when they enter and are seen in our physical realm by mortals?

People and animals.


8. When we enter the spiritual realm, what format will our bodies be in?

Digital or analog?

 

[RickyZ]

1. Were any of the 3 (including Lazarus who had been dead 4 days) Christ raised resurrected?

Would you instead call these 'resuscitation'? Did any of the 3 go on to die again later?

2. What type of body was Christ resurrected into?

If Christ was not resurrected into His physical body, then it must still be in the ground somewhere.

 

[Deade]

I see him as the reflection of the father even before the nail holes and wound in his side John 14:8...

If Paul was speaking of Jesus not returning as flesh and bone like the angel said the there is no such thing as a second coming like in comparison to his first coming because he always was here even before he was born of Mary but not flesh and bone...thats I think the matter of some believing he came in the flesh,born of a virgin and some not believing it...

You are right, a spirit can come to earth as an invisible entity. Jesus also appeared as a pillar of fire by night and a pillar of cloud by day (see Ex. 13:21). He also appeared as an ordinary man (see Gen. 18:1,2). He is God: He can appear anyway he wants. When He comes in full glory, it won't take faith to serve Him. You will feel His power.

 

[PlainWord]

lol, I have seen this before on the www being taught and afterward clicked and dragged into many threads about this that Josephus wrote in wars 6.3.16 Josephus: Of the War, Book VI but he(Josephus) states in wars 6.3.15 "BEFORE the rebellion,and BEFORE the commotions that preceded the war" which as we know began several years before ad66 (when the siege began) so Josephus is at this point in wars 6.3 speaking of an event (prior to the rebellion and commotions) so the year would be ad63-64 ish(while Nero was alive)...

The thing about it is that most of the apostles,disciples ect. would have also still been alive in ad64-65 and do not mention any of the signs that Josephus list in wars 6.3 as the Lords second return. So if the apostles were still alive in the time fame of the events Josephus is referring to in wars 6.3 and they did not recognize it as the Lords return then the apostles themselves would be who did not understand as in Daniel 12(I don't think so) instead I think would have written in the letters they wrote at that time that those things were the Lords return(but they didn't)...

I suppose this is why wars 6.3.15 is always left out and not copy and pasted along with the text from Josephus which is to avoid the part where it is speaking of events that were said took place before the rebellion eve began. I included the text of wars 6 to so that you could examine it more closely and that others could also and it then would be known that this part of wars is often misinterpreted as such(to so that none of us are left not understanding)...

LOL, I am not afraid of showing the entire passage so let's do that. I shortened it for affect. You have to take each of these events and break them out as Josephus lumps several events together.

Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it.​

​

So here we have the "Presence" of Christ shining around the temple just prior to the rebellion of 66-70 AD. So yes, Nero was still alive at this time, but I would not date this as far back as 63-64AD because look at what Josephus says, "the events followed immediately upon it." I am convinced that this event was told by John in Rev 8 just prior to the blowing of the trumpets. Trumpets frequently are used to announce an impending attack, to gather forces, etc. What happens at the first trumpet?

The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.

Is there any doubt that this is a divine punishment? Do you know what this means?

Mt 27: When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.” [SUP]25 [/SUP]And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.”​

They got their wish, didn't they? Christ's blood was on them and their children, not some kids thousands of years later. When Rome attacked, they first attacked in Galilee to the north. They attacked using scorched earth policy by burning or taking the trees and agriculture. Each town was sieged and the people either starved into surrender or they got away and fled, mostly to Jerusalem.

​

At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. ​

A heifer or young cow, not yet mated and certainly not pregnant does what???? It gives birth to a LAMB (of all things) in the middle of the temple!! Am I the only one who recognizes this as an incredible sign?

​

Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them.​

The gate was divinely opened for their enemies!! And it opened by itself. Does that happen everyday around your house? Am I alone in seeing this as a divine warning? What was coming? DESOLATION!! What was the "Abomination of??? ___________ Please fill in the blank.

​

Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.​

I see flying chariots all the time, don't you? Chariots and troops with armor running about in the sky??? Doesn't that sound a little familiar?
​

​

​

​

Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."​

​

Hmmm, is someone supposed to leave now?

“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

Let me guess, this couldn't be talking about the desolation coming in just 40 years. Jesus couldn't have been discussing that. Let me guess, He totally looked past that event to some future desolation some thousands of years later, right?

The Great Tribulation was the events of 66-70 AD. This is why Jesus told His faithful to flee because His wrath did not apply to them. Pretty much all of our earlier church fathers tell of the great Christian flight, over the mountains to Pella. So why are you having such a hard time with this?
​

​

 

[PlainWord]

A-F,

Brother PW,

Yes they were spread out, this looks better, thanks.

1. Were any of the 3 (including Lazarus who had been dead 4 days) Christ raised resurrected?

​

1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24, says that there are only 2 resurrections. Jesus #1, and #2 those who are His at His coming. These 2 resurrections as shown here are followed by eternal life. Since they were not raised to eternal life, they had to die a physical death again, then I would say that they were not resurrected as Jesus was.

It also states that Jesus is the first one resurrected, so any one before Him was not resurrected, in the sense described in 1 Cor.​

AGREED. One caveat, those who awoke with Jesus, the OT saints, were they resurrected at that time? In other words, Paul teaches, "each one in his own order, Christ, the firstfruits, then afterwards, those who are Christ's at His coming." So was Christ and the OT saints the firstfuits and they arose with Him? You are probably right about this.

2. What type of body was Christ resurrected into?

​

His physical body.​

But He could walk through walls, right? I tried doing that and got a headache from it.

3. Did Christ's body see corruption?

​

No.​

AGREED.

4. If Christ was raised into a physical body, when did He receive His spiritual body?

​

Jesus always had a spiritual body, even before creation of this universe. This spirit returned to the physical body.​

Yes, and were we not created in their image? So, don't we have a spiritual body trapped inside our human body too?

5. How does a spiritual body appear when seen from the physical realm?

​

It seems that it must take a form that would reflect the light so that out physical eyes can see them.

Examples would be humans and animals.​

Reflect or emit? I'm going with emit light. We are the "light of this world" just as "He is the Light of this world," a pretty cool double meaning. Remember there is no sun in the spiritual realm no need for the sun or moon because THEY provide the Light.

6. What body do we get resurrected into?

​

1 Cor 15:5. It is not within our understanding and is useless to try to understand the details beyond what is explained.​

But inquiring minds want to know. To understand what was restored we must first know what was lost. What did Adam and Eve lose? I think the answer is their "spiritualness." Can a mere mortal gaze upon the fully glorified GOD? They did.

An acorn falls to the ground and a tree grows. The acorn is the tree. The tree is the acorn.

The tree is within the acorn. The acorn does not die or the tree will not grow. But the life that is in the acorn must cease to be a seed and become a tree.

It becomes a tree when it breaks the shell and grows to the light. The spirit pattern of the tree was in the acorn. When the tree grows, it is still the acorn, but is now changed.

Nice analogy, but what really happens? Paul calls our earthly bodies, a "tent" which implies to me that our body is covering our true selves, our spiritual body within.

The reason why Jesus could do miracles, like walk on water or make people whole, was because He understood the relationship between the physical realm and the spiritual realm. He would know being the creator. ​

Hence, the ALMIGHTY. Not only does He know the relationship, He can go back and forth between the two realms at will. We are "trapped" in this realm but freed when we die.

7. What form do angels take when they enter and are seen in our physical realm by mortals?

​

People and animals.​

Exactly!!! In the resurrection we are like angels. So the question is when did/does the second resurrection happen since we both agree Christ, (and) the firstfruits were the first? I say it happened in 70 AD. You say it hasn't happened yet.

8. When we enter the spiritual realm, what format will our bodies be in?

​

Digital or analog?​

LOL. I'm going with digital.

 

[garee]

I just don't get it, it says "as you see I have",lol but the bulk seem to think he does no longer have that same body (flesh and bones) even though the angel says in Acts 1:11 he would return in the "same manner"

Hi I would offer it’s all one and the same manner. Like Peekaboo . Now you see him ,now you don’t, or now you don’t see him, now you do .
God who is Spirit having no form is not a man as us and neither is there any daysman as a fleshly umpire to umpire between God and man

Even the Son of man seen in the flesh when called good Teacher He would give glory to our unseen God by saying only God not seen is good.

When the unbelieving Jewish disciples (no faith) lost what he thought was familiarity with God as if God was a man . They were in turn offended by phrase “hard saying” as in ..who would want to believe that and they walked away in belief

Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall "see" the Son of man ascend up where he was before?It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Joh 6:60

It would seem clear to me on demonstration of God pouring out His unseen spirit on corrupted flesh that did not profit.

2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

I think many are looking to make God into a man . Makes me wonder when he comes as spoken of in Luke 18:18 will he find faith or disciples that walked away in unbelief(no faith) .

 

[abcdef]

Brother A-F,

Let's see if we can figure this out together by comparing scripture to scripture:

Case #1:

Lk 24: Then, as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen!

After Jesus rose from Hades He ascended to the Father at that time. There Jesus received all power. The case in Acts 1 is His leaving so that the salvation of the Holy Spirit kingdom can come on Pentecost.​

Case #2:

Rev 11: Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

Trying to make this 70 ad is impossible. There was no rapture/resurrection in or around 70 ad.

All Christians everywhere would have been caught up to meet Jesus in the air in 70 ad. along with the Visible resurrection.

In this case it is specifically about Jerusalem, so since there were no Christians in the city when it fell, why would they be caught up to heaven and salvation?

Even if it was 70 ad., the records that you rely on so heavily don't mention a resurrection that was seen by the Romans and others. You would think that it would be first on the list.

Jesus told that Jerusalem would be destroyed and that there would be a time of the gentiles. Lk 21:20-24. But how long would it be until Jerusalem was restored and the iron/clay of the statue would come to an end? Daniel 2.


Case #3:

Lk 7: Then He came and touched the open coffin, and those who carried him stood still. And He said, “Young man, I say to you, arise.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]So he who was dead sat up and began to speak. And He presented him to his mother.

Case #4:​

Lk 8: He said, “Do not weep; she is not dead, but sleeping.” [SUP]53 [/SUP]And they ridiculed Him, knowing that she was dead.[SUP]54 [/SUP]But He put them all outside, took her by the hand and called, saying, “Little girl, arise.” [SUP]55 [/SUP]Then her spirit returned, and she arose immediately.

Case #5:

Jn 11: He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” [SUP]44 [/SUP]And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with grave clothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”

Case #6:

Acts 9: But Peter put them all out, and knelt down and prayed. And turning to the body he said, “Tabitha, arise.” And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. [SUP]41 [/SUP]Then he gave her his hand and lifted her up; and when he had called the saints and widows, he presented her alive.​

Case #7:

Acts 20: And in a window sat a certain young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep. He was overcome by sleep; and as Paul continued speaking, he fell down from the third story and was taken up dead. [SUP]10 [/SUP]But Paul went down, fell on him, and embracing him said, “Do not trouble yourselves, for his life is in him.”

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Now when he had come up, had broken bread and eaten, and talked a long while, even till daybreak, he departed. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And they brought the young man in alive, and they were not a little comforted.

Case #8:

1 Kings 17: Then he cried out to the Lord and said, “O Lord my God, have You also brought tragedy on the widow with whom I lodge, by killing her son?” [SUP]21 [/SUP]And he stretched himself out on the child three times, and cried out to the Lord and said, “O Lord my God, I pray, let this child’s soul come back to him.” [SUP]22 [/SUP]Then the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived.

Case #9:

2 Kings 4: When Elisha came into the house, there was the child, lying dead on his bed. [SUP]33 [/SUP]He went in therefore, shut the door behind the two of them, and prayed to the Lord. [SUP]34 [/SUP]And he went up and lay on the child, and put his mouth on his mouth, his eyes on his eyes, and his hands on his hands; and he stretched himself out on the child, and the flesh of the child became warm. [SUP]35 [/SUP]He returned and walked back and forth in the house, and again went up and stretched himself out on him; then the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.

Case 10:

2 Kings 13: Then Elisha died, and they buried him. And the raiding bands from Moab invaded the land in the spring of the year. [SUP]21 [/SUP]So it was, as they were burying a man, that suddenly they spied a band of raiders; and they put the man in the tomb of Elisha; and when the man was let down and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived and stood on his feet.​

Case 11:

Mt 27: and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; [SUP]53 [/SUP]and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.​

These are the souls seen with Jesus in the Revelation. They are in heaven with Jesus at the writing of the Revelation.

So we have 11 instances of people coming back to life and that doesn't count the Valley of Dry Bones (Ez 37) which I think is a metaphor. Sometimes it's one person, sometimes its multiple people. Some were in the OT, some in the NT. Some before Christ died, some after Christ died. In 9 of the 11 cases there is no evidence of a trip to heaven for the newly raised/resurrected.

The resurrection of Jesus and those with Him were to eternal life, never to die again. Jesus is the first. Then those at the #2 resurrection coming. The coming of 70 ad was not a resurrection coming.

Only in two cases do we have confirmation of a trip to heaven following Christ's resurrection; the 2 witnesses of Rev 11

This is the #2 resurrection, at His coming for the kingdom. Then it is the end.

and of course Christ,

This is #1 resurrection.

but Christ's took place many days after He raised

Jesus went to the Father almost immediately after He rose from the grave, minuets say. His catching up to heaven happened in Acts 1.

while the 2 witnesses went to heaven immediately.

They lie in the street for 3 1/2 days before being resurrected.

Of the 11 cases, which were resurrected and which were merely resuscitated and what is the difference between a resurrected and a resuscitated being? I have some thoughts on this and would love yours.

Jesus was the first to be resurrected according to Paul. So that makes any other example of a "bringing back to life", not a resurrection, in the same sense as Jesus' resurrection, to eternal life in the presence of God.

The #2 resur, has yet to come.

​

 

[iamsoandso]

LOL, I am not afraid of showing the entire passage so let's do that. I shortened it for affect. You have to take each of these events and break them out as Josephus lumps several events together.

Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it.​

​

So here we have the "Presence" of Christ shining around the temple just prior to the rebellion of 66-70 AD. So yes, Nero was still alive at this time, but I would not date this as far back as 63-64AD because look at what Josephus says, "the events followed immediately upon it." I am convinced that this event was told by John in Rev 8 just prior to the blowing of the trumpets. Trumpets frequently are used to announce an impending attack, to gather forces, etc. What happens at the first trumpet?

The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.

Is there any doubt that this is a divine punishment? Do you know what this means?

Mt 27:When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.” [SUP]25 [/SUP]And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.”​

They got their wish, didn't they? Christ's blood was on them and their children, not some kids thousands of years later. When Rome attacked, they first attacked in Galilee to the north. They attacked using scorched earth policy by burning or taking the trees and agriculture. Each town was sieged and the people either starved into surrender or they got away and fled, mostly to Jerusalem.

​

At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. ​

A heifer or young cow, not yet mated and certainly not pregnant does what???? It gives birth to a LAMB (of all things) in the middle of the temple!! Am I the only one who recognizes this as an incredible sign?

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Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them.​

The gate was divinely opened for their enemies!! And it opened by itself. Does that happen everyday around your house? Am I alone in seeing this as a divine warning? What was coming? DESOLATION!! What was the "Abomination of??? ___________ Please fill in the blank.

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Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.​

I see flying chariots all the time, don't you? Chariots and troops with armor running about in the sky??? Doesn't that sound a little familiar?
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Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."​

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Hmmm, is someone supposed to leave now?

“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

Let me guess, this couldn't be talking about the desolation coming in just 40 years. Jesus couldn't have been discussing that. Let me guess, He totally looked past that event to some future desolation some thousands of years later, right?

The Great Tribulation was the events of 66-70 AD. This is why Jesus told His faithful to flee because His wrath did not apply to them. Pretty much all of our earlier church fathers tell of the great Christian flight, over the mountains to Pella. So why are you having such a hard time with this?
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PW I don't think that you are the one who left the verse about "before the rebellion and commotions" out. In fact I had seen it applied many years ago long before we spoke of it today but if by how I worded my post made you think so I apologize.

As I said about seeing this in the past I also had looked into this from the point of when and how the war first began and the commotions Josephus would be referencing. In Josephus: Of the War, Book II ,,,beginning around chapter 14 Florus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gessius_Florus who is appointed procurator in ad64-66 are the commotions that led up to the rebellion. So if Josephus states that these things that were seen were (before) those commotions began then ad63 is the year "before" Florus was made procurator and began trying to cause a war. Pella was laid waste by the Jews at that same time(see chapter 18.1) So again if in ad63 Jesus returned or these signs were to be noted the apostles were still there and would have said that he had returned.