End times

[PlainWord]

PW I don't think that you are the one who left the verse about "before the rebellion and commotions" out. In fact I had seen it applied many years ago long before we spoke of it today but if by how I worded my post made you think so I apologize.

As I said about seeing this in the past I also had looked into this from the point of when and how the war first began and the commotions Josephus would be referencing. In Josephus: Of the War, Book II ,,,beginning around chapter 14 Florus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gessius_Florus who is appointed procurator in ad64-66 are the commotions that led up to the rebellion. So if Josephus states that these things that were seen were (before) those commotions began then ad63 is the year "before" Florus was made procurator and began trying to cause a war. Pella was laid waste by the Jews at that same time(see chapter 18.1) So again if in ad63 Jesus returned or these signs were to be noted the apostles were still there and would have said that he had returned.

Interesting take concerning the "commotions." But there were other commotions prior to the war such as the high priest taking James, the brother of Jesus, up on the temple roof and throwing him off. Also, there were plenty of wars and battles too (i.e. rumors of wars).

It's also interesting that the disciples asked for the signs leading up to the return of Christ. I presume they did this so that they'd know when He was about to return. Nowhere in Christ's answer does He say, "Don't worry about the signs, you guys are going to be long dead and buried because I'm not coming back for a very long time." But, He didn't say anything of the sort. He told them the signs and one of them was that they would be hated, and even killed. Why give 1st century signs for an event that would be thousands of years later? If Christ was discussing a 21st century return why not use signs relevant to our times, like computers, television, space travel, internet, planes, cars, etc.?

Just curious, how do you explain all these strange things Josephus mentioned? Do you see anything divine there? Do you see anything that happened 66-70 AD time frame worthy of devoting much time too and if so where is it? After all, they were all Jewish and their 2,000 year old nation was about to come to a brutal and devastating end.

 

[PlainWord]

A-F,

These are the souls seen with Jesus in the Revelation. They are in heaven with Jesus at the writing of the Revelation.​

Are you sure? How do you know? I don't think they were OT souls at all. I think they were NT souls recently killed "under the alter." I don't even think they were in heaven. I think they were still in Hades waiting to be free. Hades is beneath or under the alter in Heaven, right? These guys were looking for revenge and getting impatient. This tells me they recently died for their faith. OT martyrs like Isaiah for instance, would have been waiting a long time, 600 + years, for revenge.

The resurrection of Jesus and those with Him were to eternal life, never to die again. Jesus is the first. Then those at the #2 resurrection coming. The coming of 70 ad was not a resurrection coming.

​

Christ certainly returned, or His presence did, in the 70 AD timeframe. If this is true, then the resurrection also happened then.

This is the #2 resurrection, at His coming for the kingdom. Then it is the end.​

The end of the Mosaic Age, the end of Israel, the end of the Law, take your pick. They all ended in 70 AD. Who were Christ's enemies when He was on earth? When were they put under His feet?

Jesus went to the Father almost immediately after He rose from the grave, minuets say. His catching up to heaven happened in Acts 1.​

He went down to Hades and ministered there.

They lie in the street for 3 1/2 days before being resurrected.

​

Interesting how precisely given the time was, 3.5 days, not 3 days not 4 days which was the amount of time Christ and Lazarus were dead. Same city as Jesus was in - Jerusalem. Well, Jerusalem was utterly and completely destroyed in 70 AD. The city that is there today is called Jerusalem but is it the same city? If your son was born at home then 10 years later your house is burned down but you rebuild it, let's say as close to the same as you can, would you be able to tell me, "My son was born in this house?" I'd respond, "No he wasn't, he was born in the house which burned down, not this house that you rebuilt."

Jesus was the first to be resurrected according to Paul. So that makes any other example of a "bringing back to life", not a resurrection, in the same sense as Jesus' resurrection, to eternal life in the presence of God.​

We agree

The #2 resur, has yet to come.

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We disagree. It came in 70 AD, "immediately after the tribulation of those days." Today when we die, we don't go to Hades, we go straight to heaven and already have our spiritual bodies because our earthly bodies, "this tent" is destroyed.

 

[iamsoandso]

Interesting take concerning the "commotions." But there were other commotions prior to the war such as the high priest taking James, the brother of Jesus, up on the temple roof and throwing him off. Also, there were plenty of wars and battles too (i.e. rumors of wars).

It's also interesting that the disciples asked for the signs leading up to the return of Christ. I presume they did this so that they'd know when He was about to return. Nowhere in Christ's answer does He say, "Don't worry about the signs, you guys are going to be long dead and buried because I'm not coming back for a very long time." But, He didn't say anything of the sort. He told them the signs and one of them was that they would be hated, and even killed. Why give 1st century signs for an event that would be thousands of years later? If Christ was discussing a 21st century return why not use signs relevant to our times, like computers, television, space travel, internet, planes, cars, etc.?

Just curious, how do you explain all these strange things Josephus mentioned? Do you see anything divine there? Do you see anything that happened 66-70 AD time frame worthy of devoting much time too and if so where is it? After all, they were all Jewish and their 2,000 year old nation was about to come to a brutal and devastating end.

You say that the disciples ask for the signs leading up to the return of Christ,,,where are you getting this from?

 

[garee]

You say that the disciples ask for the signs leading up to the return of Christ,,,where are you getting this from?

In Mathew 24 signs of the times no direct answer.

Waiting for reply on #118

 

[garee]

Now I have some questions for you:

1. Have old things passed away yet?

Hi thanks for the reply. I will give my pennies worth

Up until the time of reformation that used certain ceremonial laws as a picture of the suffering of Christ, our bloody husband, beforehand came to an end when he said it is finished. The veil was rent showing us the previous time period used as a parable had come to a end . Never again would he use the outward flesh of a Jew in parables. The new form of government replaced the old all nations became part of the kingdom of priest .

2. Have all things become new yet?

No one has received their new incorruptible bodies. We have a new eternal spirit that will be raised on the last day, a new heart. We are commanded not to know each after the flesh. It can causes division and segregation among the believers.We are a new people born from above.All things are becoming new daily.

3. What tense is used in the above passage; past, present or future?

I am no scholar still learning about different tenses .I would say present future leaving yesterday, yesterday

4. What does it mean to be a "new creature?"

One who has been delivered form eternal death and given as a free gift eternal life.One that has a living hope stretchering beyond all human hope as the imagination of their own deceitful heart

5. What change(s) are there between an old creature and a new creature?

All things are new. The grass is much greener on the new side of the fence but harder to cut. Corruption does not inherit in corruption all things are in the process of becoming new

 

[iamsoandso]

In Mathew 24 signs of the times no direct answer.

Waiting for reply on #118

I apologize in not answering you in post 118 I cannot see a question. I saw it as you stated "I wonder",,, I did not intend to be rude and not answer...

 

[garee]

I apologize in not answering you in post 118 I cannot see a question. I saw it as you stated "I wonder",,, I did not intend to be rude and not answer...

Thanx that was kind of you.

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments; As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.Psa 133:1

 

[iamsoandso]

Thanx that was kind of you.

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments; As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.Psa 133:1

In Matthew 24:3(and the parallels) do you see them asking Jesus about his second coming? Why I ask this is this in Luke 18:24 it states that they did not understand this when he told them,,,

In Luke 24:21 these say that what they were sad about was that they had trusted that he was who was to redeem Israel,,,

Thomas would not believe it was him unless he put his fingers in the spear and nail holes...

In Luke 24:37 they were afraid because they thought he was a spirit...

In John 16:12 Jesus tells them that there were many other things they would not understand until the comforter he spoke of came...


So in Matthew 24:3(and the parallels) were they asking him about his second coming and asking about the signs(when the scripture says they didn't understand it,or were they asking about the signs of his coming like they thought and were confused because he told them not one stone would be left on another like he said and they did not see how the temple could be destroyed like he said and him fulfill the signs of his coming(first/only) like they believed?

 

[iamsoandso]

lol, It's a fallacy you see they cannot ask Jesus something that the bible says they don't understand yet...

 

[PlainWord]

You say that the disciples ask for the signs leading up to the return of Christ,,,where are you getting this from?

I got that idea from here:

 

[iamsoandso]

I got that idea from here:

View attachment 179779

lol, of your presence parousia...

 

[PlainWord]

lol, of your presence parousia...

Exactly. Are you starting to see? Below is the meaning of Parousia. I wasn't the one who defined it.



The Olivet Discourse (Mt 24) begins with Jesus and His disciples discussing the temple and beautiful buildings. Jesus tells them

“Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down,"​

right? Then they ask their famous question I previously provided, "Tell us, when these things (the destruction of the temple) will be; and what the sign of Your presence (Parousia), and of the termination of the age?" You see, the disciples linked all three events together; 1)"these things," 2) Christ's presence and the 3) end of the age. Nowhere in Christ's answer does He unlink them nor does He discuss any massive 2,000+ year gap.

Look back to Mt 23 and the events that had taken place earlier in that same day. Jesus got into a heated discussion with the Scribes and Pharisees. Go back and read Mt 23 and get the flavor of what went on earlier in the day. Please read this:

[SUP]31 [/SUP]“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt.​

[SUP]33 [/SUP]Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? [SUP]34 [/SUP]Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,​

[SUP]35 [/SUP]that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.​

He just told them that ALL THESE THINGS WILL COME UPON THIS (THEIR) GENERATION, not some other generation thousands of years later!! Read on:

[SUP]37 [/SUP]“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!​

[SUP]38 [/SUP]See! Your house is left to you desolate
​

Their house (the temple) would be left desolate in THEIR GENERATION because THEY killed the wise men, prophets and scribes, not today's Jerusalem. Jesus repeats this in Mt 24:

[SUP]34 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.​

THAT GENERATION, not ours, would see His Wrath!!! In 70 AD, Israel was one of the top 3 most powerful countries on earth along with Rome and Egypt. Jerusalem was by far the richest city in the world as Titus himself stated. So when you read Rev 18, it starts to make sense.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. ​

[SUP]22 [/SUP]The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore. [SUP]23 [/SUP]The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”​

Who was guilty of shedding the blood of the prophets? Jesus already told us.

 

[PlainWord]

This bears repeating. In Mt 23, Jesus leaves no doubt who He was talking about and what would happen to them. Compare scripture to scripture:

Mt 23: [SUP]35 [/SUP]that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

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Rev 18: [SUP]24 [/SUP]And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.

”​

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Mt 23: Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt.

See now why the bowl imagery is used?

Rev 16: “Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.”

Again, who shed the blood of the prophets (and Jesus for that matter)?

Rev 16: Because You have judged these things. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,
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And You have given them blood to drink. For it is their just due.”​

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Rev 18: [SUP]6 [/SUP]Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.

The Jerusalem of the first century was living in an adulterous affair with Rome having forsaken their Messiah. "We have no King but Caesar!" remember that? But Jesus was the "King of the Jews" right?
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Mt 2: “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”​

Even Pilate recognized who He was:

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Mt 27: [SUP]11 [/SUP]Now Jesus stood before the governor. And the governor asked Him, saying, “Are You the King of the Jews?” Jesus said to him, “It is as you say.”

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Remember how they mocked Him when they were getting ready to crucifying Him?

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Mt 27: [SUP]29 [/SUP]When they had twisted a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand. And they bowed the knee before Him and mocked Him, saying "Hail, King of the Jews!" ​

Then remember the sign they placed upon Him?

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Mt 27: [SUP]37 [/SUP]And they put up over His head the accusation written against Him:

THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

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So in Revelation, what does John call them, how does he describe evil Jerusalem. The SAME EXACT FREAKIN' WAY!!!
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[SUP]4 [/SUP]The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And on her forehead a name was written:​

​

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS
OF THE EARTH.​

[SUP]6 [/SUP]I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.​

​

​

Common, it shouldn't be that hard to figure out who Jesus was angry at and who the Wrath of the Lamb was aimed at. My 3 year old black lab, who right now is bugging me to play with her, can figure this out.




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[iamsoandso]

Exactly. Are you starting to see? Below is the meaning of Parousia. I wasn't the one who defined it.

View attachment 179790

The Olivet Discourse (Mt 24) begins with Jesus and His disciples discussing the temple and beautiful buildings. Jesus tells them

“Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down,"​

right? Then they ask their famous question I previously provided, "Tell us, when these things (the destruction of the temple) will be; and what the sign of Your presence (Parousia), and of the termination of the age?" You see, the disciples linked all three events together; 1)"these things," 2) Christ's presence and the 3) end of the age. Nowhere in Christ's answer does He unlink them nor does He discuss any massive 2,000+ year gap.

Look back to Mt 23 and the events that had taken place earlier in that same day. Jesus got into a heated discussion with the Scribes and Pharisees. Go back and read Mt 23 and get the flavor of what went on earlier in the day. Please read this:

[SUP]31 [/SUP]“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt.​

[SUP]33 [/SUP]Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? [SUP]34 [/SUP]Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,​

[SUP]35 [/SUP]that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.​

He just told them that ALL THESE THINGS WILL COME UPON THIS (THEIR) GENERATION, not some other generation thousands of years later!! Read on:

[SUP]37 [/SUP]“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!​

[SUP]38 [/SUP]See! Your house is left to you desolate
​

Their house (the temple) would be left desolate in THEIR GENERATION because THEY killed the wise men, prophets and scribes, not today's Jerusalem. Jesus repeats this in Mt 24:

[SUP]34 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.​

THAT GENERATION, not ours, would see His Wrath!!! In 70 AD, Israel was one of the top 3 most powerful countries on earth along with Rome and Egypt. Jerusalem was by far the richest city in the world as Titus himself stated. So when you read Rev 18, it starts to make sense.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. ​

[SUP]22 [/SUP]The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore. [SUP]23 [/SUP]The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”​

Who was guilty of shedding the blood of the prophets? Jesus already told us.

lol, I have to chuckle a bit,,,why is in that it has become so well fashionable in modern Christianity that in general without realizing they do it most will proceed in dialog as though there are two camps and only those two. In this I notice that the one for the most part will always highlight the same things in the same verses and are casting them as a net to draw in into their boat. At the same time though the other camp will also in general post their camps scriptures and highlight the same things over and over and cast them also as a net to draw but instead of a sheet bend they tie their net behind two and then one. After a while I find myself waiting and thinking "here it comes,those highlighted scriptures and the speech" and then I refresh the page and presto there's the post!,lol

I suppose it's confusing to the far left and the far right as to the things I might say because when I do it must seem incorrect or something to them. I notice the one seems to think to themselves "if he is M.A.D he would fight tooth and nail to show that at least one portion of that wall is not cast down" and I bet it's confusing to them that I don't. On the other hand the other seem to think to themselves "this fish doesn't belong in our boat he says things that they say in the other",lol.

Now that that's out of my system,lol they ask him in verse 3 and used the word aionos and in verse 21 Jesus uses the word kosmou and then speaks of a period of time after those events were to take place. When Jesus spoke about the kosmou and mentioned a time afterwards it seems to me that one age in the generations of the heavens and the earth were the thing in their mind in verse 3 and Jesus knew it and that in the kosmou there would be other ages that would come after the end of the one they spoke of. Jesus in another place speaks of a sin that would not be forgiven in this age or the age to come and so either one has ended and the next began or the one that they ask him of has not and will end in the future and then another will come. In neither of the two though will that sin be forgiven so if the one they ask about has ended and the next began then until the age that is spoken of that would come after that one ended ends then even in this one there is a sin that will not be forgiven.

So if these other ages,or age are spoken of as one coming after the next then one will end and the next begin. There is the age they were in in verse 3, one Jesus mentions where there is the sin that will not be forgiven and another where they will not marry or give in marriage but will be as the angels and receive eternal life. I think that they themselves were quicker at spotting what they were referring to about the generations than we are today in that by 100ad and even further they spoke of six sets of thousands and a rest at the end, Chiliaism.

I've often watched in threads the two camps debate their positions with each other. At first I thought they were calling me by derogatory names but after looking up all the names they called me I realized that they were referring to what I had said as being preterist or disp. or some other position based on what I said. I once wondered how those who lived in the next set of Church leaders days saw the same matters and then began to read who they said was the harlot,and how they spoke of one age ending and another beginning. I wondered how they saw the destruction of Jerusalem and who they said the beast was and of the abomination of desolation ect. It is odd to read the letters fom the apostolic fathers in that they unlike us today saw things not so far left or right but as if a portion was fulfilled and past and another portion was to be fulfilled later(odd concept in 2018,lol).