FROM THE DESK OF......

[Ralph-]

John said they were never saved period. And are now antichrist (reject Christ)

Your confusing true saving faith with mere belief.

You're confusing shallow, immature faith with maturing, fruitful, 'knowing/seeing' faith.


Job was a righteous God fearing man highly spoken of by God:


“Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.”"-Job 1:8


Yet he did not 'know' God until he suffered and was trained by his suffering.


“I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear;
But now my eye sees You"-Job 42:5


It is the 'knowing/seeing', mature believer who will not fall away into unbelief again and be lost when Jesus comes back. Some of us believers will get to this mature place where the word of God is deeply rooted in us and we can 'see' and 'know' God intimately. And there are some of us believers who will not get to that mature place of 'knowing' and will reject the word and return to unbelief. 'Once saved always saved' is a place you grow up into. Strive through seeking and longing for God and growing up in his word to be in that secure place.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

People are getting rejection confused with disobedience. You turn your back on God and want nothing to do with him,after being saved is rejection, and no return. Disobedience is where you trust in him but choose to walk in the flesh. He will chastise those ,and punish them like a father does his son.

I think I see what you are saying here now. I read it before and just had to leave it alone because I didn't understand what you were saying. The verse ralph gave helped me to understand you.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You have not read my OPs because if you did., you'd have read about how when we are resting in the righteousness of Christ., we end up reflecting Jesus in our lives. I believe we should not focus on ourselves and "our" own righteousness. The Holy Spirit always points us to Jesus and then we can reflect Him. If you are looking at yourself and others., that is who you will reflect.

If we follow Jesus we will do his righteous works. If we follow our own will and desires we will do sinful works of the flesh. Is that what you mean by reflecting Jesus or self?

 

[Ralph-]

You aren't automatically grounded and rooted just because you got saved. You grow to that place of being grounded and rooted in a 'knowing' love of God that produces fruitful perseverance from which one can draw the confidence that they will not go back to unbelief and be denied when Jesus comes back.


"that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God."-Ephesians 1:16-19

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I do understand you saying we grow into OSAS, ralph. That's exactly how it happened with me. It's why I can let men be where they are with Him and not pummel them mercilessly on the point.

 

[Ralph-]

A born again child would never lose faith UNLESS the one he trusts becomes unfaithful.

...or he abandons his believing because he no longer wants the word of God because of trials and temptations-Luke 8:13.

WHy do you think God is so unfaithfyl you could ever lose faith (or anyone could)

God is not unfaithful, ever. He is always there to help me believe and persevere to the end. What you are ignoring is I can choose to not want his faithful help anymore and I can go back to unbelief.

Plus, again, John said they were NEVER IF US (never saved)

You make a horrible mistake when you broad stroke this to mean every single person who 'leaves' never believed Christ is the Messiah in the flesh to begin with.

We know that's not what he's trying to say and was only talking about this particular group who left because he then warns the true believers who didn't leave to not also leave but instead to continue to abide in Christ.


"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

28Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming."-1 John 2:24,28

 

[Ralph-]

I do understand you saying we grow into OSAS, ralph. That's exactly how it happened with me. It's why I can let men be where they are with Him and not pummel them mercilessly on the point.

You get it! Spread the word!

 

[joaniemarie]

If we follow Jesus we will do his righteous works. If we follow our own will and desires we will do sinful works of the flesh. Is that what you mean by reflecting Jesus or self?

I notice we humans are addicted to religion. We think always on the basis of what can "I" do. And instead of walking in and by the Spirit., we get off track and fall into the religion again of doing and getting. Walking in the new man of the heart is daily seeing the things Jesus has done and is doing and will do in and through us and others we come in contact with.

And it's finding out He gives us the desires of our hearts not only for our spiritual growing and living but for the joy spilling over into our living here., as we 'live and move and have our being' as well. Jesus said to learn of Him. Learning about Jesus is not a burden to carry. It's the JOY that is set before us. Religion makes it a burden and a work.

Reminds me of Mary and Martha., Mary knew the first things first and the rest follows naturally from the new heart.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

This is a really exceptional thread rehbein! I'm going to rate it with the stars thingy.

The thread has gone good places!

 

[Ralph-]

I notice we humans are addicted to religion. We think always on the basis of what can "I" do.

"...through (Christ) who strengthens me"-Philippians 4:13. That's the part you and others leave out to make 'work' look like the four letter word never to be uttered in the church.


You have to stop automatically always hearing 'works' as the evil self righteous attempt to serve God. The 'I' in the works of the believer does not have to automatically without exception mean 'me' alone doing righteous things apart from God. God did not take 'you' out of the equation. He did not take away our choice to walk in the Spirit or not. Righteous work is you and God in union. But you can not boast in that since you can't do it except he made it possible for you to do it.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

ralph, I can honestly say you have NOT understood joanie...

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I notice we humans are addicted to religion. We think always on the basis of what can "I" do. And instead of walking in and by the Spirit., we get off track and fall into the religion again of doing and getting. Walking in the new man of the heart is daily seeing the things Jesus has done and is doing and will do in and through us and others we come in contact with.

And it's finding out He gives us the desires of our hearts not only for our spiritual growing and living but for the joy spilling over into our living here., as we 'live and move and have our being' as well. Jesus said to learn of Him. Learning about Jesus is not a burden to carry. It's the JOY that is set before us. Religion makes it a burden and a work.

Reminds me of Mary and Martha., Mary knew the first things first and the rest follows naturally from the new heart.

Being addicted to pure and undefiled religion is a good thing. It has no problem with doing either outward or inward works.

Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep oneself unstained by the world. James 1:27​

It sounds like your experience has been in fake religion with man-made rules that promote phony holiness.

 

[Ralph-]

ralph, I can honestly say you have NOT understood joanie...

Maybe. I don't disagree with much of what she says but she has to stop seeing 'self righteousness' behind every mention of works.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Maybe. I don't disagree with much of what she says but she has to stop seeing 'self righteousness' behind every mention of works.

Maybe. But please understand, it is VERY hard for someone who got caught in the works of trying to be good and holy inside instead of trusting for Him to do it, that it is sometimes years upon years of such frustration and depression that they want very badly to not see other men chained as they were.

 

[joaniemarie]

"...through (Christ) who strengthens me"-Philippians 4:13. That's the part you and others leave out to make 'work' look like the four letter word never to be uttered in the church.


You have to stop automatically always hearing 'works' as the evil self righteous attempt to serve God. The 'I' in the works of the believer does not have to automatically without exception mean 'me' alone doing righteous things apart from God. God did not take 'you' out of the equation. He did not take away our choice to walk in the Spirit or not. Righteous work is you and God in union. But you can not boast in that since you can't do it except he made it possible for you to do it.

There's a difference between doing this in the flesh and doing it in the spirit. Christians can live all their saved lives as babies walking their Christian lives out in their flesh. Always asking what can "I" do. They do all they can to please God and do it religiously without any plug into the power of the Holy Spirit. Later they find out the ladder they were climbing was up the wrong tree.

All the righteous work they did ended up being wood., hay and stubble because it was done in and by the flesh motivated by self not the fruit of Holy Spirit. It was fruit of the flesh.. and there is no "fruit" of the flesh.

What I've always automatically done until recently was try to re generate my flesh. Thinking God is interested in a transformation of my flesh., fighting with and controlling the flesh by the flesh. But actually the Holy Spirit is in the business of growing our new man up so we are abiding on the vine and naturally being controlled by the Holy Spirit.

We don't fight our flesh., Our old man died and our new man is alive. We have to learn to walk the new man out in spirit and in truth. We cannot control the flesh because it is apposed to the things of the Spirit. We have to allow our new man to grow up into what we are... the sons of God. We can't do that in our flesh. I discovered that the Bible says to walk in the Spirit and that is the ONLY way to not do the works of the flesh. Gal.5:16

[SUP]16 [/SUP]But I say, walk and live [habitually] in the [Holy] Spirit [responsive to and controlled and guided by the Spirit]; then you will certainly not gratify the cravings and desires of the flesh (of human nature without God).

 

[Ralph-]

Always asking what can "I" do.

There's nothing wrong with asking what I can, and should, do. In fact, we are counseled to find out what pleases the Lord, and to know what his will is-Ephesians 5:10,17.


From there the right question to ask is 'how can I do it?'. That is actually what Christians struggle with. They don't know how to do what God wants them to do. The life changing answer to that question for me was have the qualities of the fruit of the Spirit in you. It is the fruit of the Spirit inside of us that makes it possible to do what God commands. That is what walking in and by the Spirit means.

It's actually quite simple: Kind people do kind things. Patient people are patient. Loving people are loving towards others. Peaceful people are peacemakers. And so on. Nurture the fruit of the Spirit in your heart through communion with God, through reading his word and praise and worship, and a rejection of the things of the world, and you will have the qualities/fruits of the Spirit working and growing in you to do his will.

It's that 'clean the inside of the cup first' thing that Christ talked about. Be clean on the inside first by having the fruit of the Spirit (peace, patience, kindness, love, etc.) growing and welling up in your heart, then you will find the strength and the faith and the will and the determination to do what pleases God. You will be walking in the Spirit, not the flesh.

That's how you walk in the Spirit-obey the impulse of the fruit of the Spirit working in your heart. Get the impulse of the fruit of the Spirit in your heart by devoting your life to seeking him in the word and in praise and worship and a turning away from the loves and ways of the world.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

We don't fight our flesh., Our old man died and our new man is alive. We have to learn to walk the new man out in spirit and in truth. We cannot control the flesh because it is apposed to the things of the Spirit. We have to allow our new man to grow up into what we are... the sons of God. We can't do that in our flesh. I discovered that the Bible says to walk in the Spirit and that is the ONLY way to not do the works of the flesh. Gal.5:16
.

That's not what Paul taught. There are numerous other passages that convey this same idea.

But I discipline my body and subjugate [it], lest somehow [after] preaching to others, I myself should become disqualified. 1 Corinthians 9:27​

 

[Ralph-]

Maybe. But please understand, it is VERY hard for someone who got caught in the works of trying to be good and holy inside instead of trusting for Him to do it, that it is sometimes years upon years of such frustration and depression that they want very badly to not see other men chained as they were.

I know about this. I spent the first two or three years of my Christian life zealously working for God. Nothing wrong with that, that's what we're commanded to do. But what I did not know was how to be successful and consistent in what truly counts-character. Character that then drives the successful and powerful spiritual life of obedience to God.

Instead of Christians being swayed away from 'working' for God and resting in a misguided 'once saved always saved' doctrine, for fear they'll be sinfully serving him in the power of themselves alone, as it seems most teachings lean towards, I want to see Christians taught that it is through a change of your character and how you behave that will bring you into the promised power to be obedient and pleasing to God. That character being defined by the fruit of the Spirit-patience, long suffering, self control, peace, compassion, sympathy, etc. When you are patient inside you will be patient. When you are long suffering inside you will suffer long. When you are at peace inside you will be a peaceable person, etc. That is the key to the Christian life. Not doing anything is NOT the answer to the danger of serving God in the power of your own self.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

That's not what Paul taught. There are numerous other passages that convey this same idea.

But I discipline my body and subjugate [it], lest somehow [after] preaching to others, I myself should become disqualified. 1 Corinthians 9:27​

How did he subjugate it?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You're confusing shallow, immature faith with maturing, fruitful, 'knowing/seeing' faith.


Job was a righteous God fearing man highly spoken of by God:


“Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.”"-Job 1:8


Yet he did not 'know' God until he suffered and was trained by his suffering.


“I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear;
But now my eye sees You"-Job 42:5


It is the 'knowing/seeing', mature believer who will not fall away into unbelief again and be lost when Jesus comes back. Some of us believers will get to this mature place where the word of God is deeply rooted in us and we can 'see' and 'know' God intimately. And there are some of us believers who will not get to that mature place of 'knowing' and will reject the word and return to unbelief. 'Once saved always saved' is a place you grow up into. Strive through seeking and longing for God and growing up in his word to be in that secure place.

refute the passage, or just stop.

I have not confused anything, I am just taking john at his word.

John said people who stop believing who now reject Christ, have never been saved.

Either John is a liar. or you are