GALATIANS 3:5....BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW OR BY THE HEARING OF FAITH?
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J
Jesus said if you have anger in your heart at your brother without cause you have already murdered him. And I'm too tired to get into the whole without cause part right now. Maybe later, okay? 
we can talk about it later, have a good evening.
I had a good long break where I laid off heavy matters for a while, then came back to this.
Your post that I replied to was where you said you didn't get it that if Jesus followed the law, why we wouldn't have to.
So I said, if to have anger in my heart at you means I've murdered and to even have a thought means im an adulterer, how do you propose I keep the law? Even just with the anger, who on earth can not get bitterly upset ever, ever? Rush hour traffic alone is the scene of many of my murders! So do I keep that law by trying really hard or do I trust Him to finish what He began? I have to trust because the law is now so stringent that it reaches even to my thoughts. I can't hope to be that holy by my own efforts.
I can't finish in the strength of my effort,( my flesh) what was begun in the Spirit. This is what Paul said to the galatians-he said, did you receive the Spirit through keeping the law or through the kindness of God?? So how is it that you are now trying to keep the law, trying to finish in your working what was begun by the Spirit? He said that to attempt this was to fall from grace. I was saved through that trust and have to continue in that trust.
Does that make any clearer what I was trying to say?
Your post that I replied to was where you said you didn't get it that if Jesus followed the law, why we wouldn't have to.
So I said, if to have anger in my heart at you means I've murdered and to even have a thought means im an adulterer, how do you propose I keep the law? Even just with the anger, who on earth can not get bitterly upset ever, ever? Rush hour traffic alone is the scene of many of my murders! So do I keep that law by trying really hard or do I trust Him to finish what He began? I have to trust because the law is now so stringent that it reaches even to my thoughts. I can't hope to be that holy by my own efforts.
I can't finish in the strength of my effort,( my flesh) what was begun in the Spirit. This is what Paul said to the galatians-he said, did you receive the Spirit through keeping the law or through the kindness of God?? So how is it that you are now trying to keep the law, trying to finish in your working what was begun by the Spirit? He said that to attempt this was to fall from grace. I was saved through that trust and have to continue in that trust.
Does that make any clearer what I was trying to say?
I encourage any and all to look into these different explanations about grace through faith and make their own decisions. I don't believe everyone here is so young and inexperienced in their understanding of the Bible OR their relationship with Christ that they are incapable of seeing truth from error unless people here school them on how to think. This is a link to a thread here on CC
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...conditional-unconditional-20.html#post2633073
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...conditional-unconditional-20.html#post2633073
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http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...conditional-unconditional-20.html#post2633073
Tried to post this with the picture but failed. It just came up the same. I've discovered these topics have already been discussed but forgotten. So instead of trying to begin all over again, I'm re posting what others have said AND agreed with.
Tried to post this with the picture but failed. It just came up the same. I've discovered these topics have already been discussed but forgotten. So instead of trying to begin all over again, I'm re posting what others have said AND agreed with.
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It's a long thread....but I'm game! I'm going to read it without commenting so I can just truly focus on what people are saying in it. Of course, I'm going to have to assume that all who were involved in the thread have grown in their understanding and may think differently on some things than they did in 2016. I sure wouldn't want to argue over a point someones mind has been changed and renewed in!
J
I had a good long break where I laid off heavy matters for a while, then came back to this.
i dont think all hope is lost when we make a mistake. Jesus seemed pretty angry when He ran off those money lenders in the church, its human nature. when the disciples failed to drive out a demon, they went to Jesus, He didnt tell them He would do it for them, He told them to have greater faith, He even says He wont be there always to do the work for them. to me this means have faith in the Father that you can do it, just the same as Jesus had faith in the Father. do as Jesus did, He is the example.
i dont think Paul is teaching to not keep the law, the bereans tested Pauls teachings against scripture to see if what Paul taught agreed with scripture, they found no deviation. to me this means Paul was not teaching anything new.
Paul was the one that changed, he had fallen from the way, Jesus brought him back. if you follow the law and you start killing people, like Paul/saul, you fallen from the true way. John the baptist followed the law, Jesus called him the greatest of all the prophets. the true way is the way of Jesus, He followed the law.
Yes. It's awful sometimes. You can't just have a damn conversation!
I agree of course, all hope is not lost from a mistake.
Yes, He told them to have greater faith when they couldn't cast out a demon. He did this too when peter started to sink and He said why do you have so little faith?
When He told them to have faith, that just means trust. But I don't agree He was saying, have trust that you can do it. He was saying have trust in ME. So for instance, peter said to Jesus, tell me to walk on the water to You. And Jesus said, come. And so peter did, because He trusted Jesus. But then he saw the waves and got scared. He stopped trusting Jesus to keep him from drowning. Then Jesus said, why do you have so little trust? It was great trust but then he stopped trusting because his eyes were seeing the possibility of drowning.
I agree paul never taught a single man to not keep the laws of God. He taught them that if they trusted and walked in the Spirit, they would be fully obeying. He taught that the law was for the inside of the man in this new lifegiving way of the Spirit that is no longer by the letter but by the Spirit.
The new way is this: You were given the Holy Spirit by trusting, not by anything you did, but by His kindness. So don't go back to the old way of working hard to keep the law, but trust Him to finish by the Spirit the work that was begun by the Spirit.
The way of Jesus was trusting God for everything. It's what we do too.
I agree of course, all hope is not lost from a mistake.
Yes, He told them to have greater faith when they couldn't cast out a demon. He did this too when peter started to sink and He said why do you have so little faith?
When He told them to have faith, that just means trust. But I don't agree He was saying, have trust that you can do it. He was saying have trust in ME. So for instance, peter said to Jesus, tell me to walk on the water to You. And Jesus said, come. And so peter did, because He trusted Jesus. But then he saw the waves and got scared. He stopped trusting Jesus to keep him from drowning. Then Jesus said, why do you have so little trust? It was great trust but then he stopped trusting because his eyes were seeing the possibility of drowning.
I agree paul never taught a single man to not keep the laws of God. He taught them that if they trusted and walked in the Spirit, they would be fully obeying. He taught that the law was for the inside of the man in this new lifegiving way of the Spirit that is no longer by the letter but by the Spirit.
The new way is this: You were given the Holy Spirit by trusting, not by anything you did, but by His kindness. So don't go back to the old way of working hard to keep the law, but trust Him to finish by the Spirit the work that was begun by the Spirit.
The way of Jesus was trusting God for everything. It's what we do too.
I read some of it yesterday and was blessed and learned more. There is also a video that was posted there that I will post here too. It amazes me how much has already been discussed on these very matters again and again and yet I still learn more. When my focus is on seeing Jesus., the Bible is personal to me and is my own love letter to read. It makes all the difference in how I approach the Bible now.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...conditional-unconditional-20.html#post2633057
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Is Eternal Security Conditional or Unconditional? - Page ...
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It also needs to be noted that JGIG and I are not exactly the same in our ideas about what the Bible says about healing. JGIG has a son who has been dealing with cancer for a long time. And so her whole family has been going through a lot of things concerning the subject based on what God is teaching and they are all learning about healing that I know nothing at all about.
But despite our differences JGIG is a dear sister in Christ and I respect her and she has my ear on the subject. We don't fight or argue on this matter. She has learned things I haven't because I don't live her life. And vs/vs We know it's important to walk the way Jesus calls us to walk. For me to try to see Jesus through JGIG's eyes would be wrong just as for her to see Him through my eyes would be wrong.
We each are called to walk by faith and not by sight individually. No one can do it for someone else. And we have to respect one another as they walk. I see no contradiction in these matters. It's always about Jesus.
But despite our differences JGIG is a dear sister in Christ and I respect her and she has my ear on the subject. We don't fight or argue on this matter. She has learned things I haven't because I don't live her life. And vs/vs We know it's important to walk the way Jesus calls us to walk. For me to try to see Jesus through JGIG's eyes would be wrong just as for her to see Him through my eyes would be wrong.
We each are called to walk by faith and not by sight individually. No one can do it for someone else. And we have to respect one another as they walk. I see no contradiction in these matters. It's always about Jesus.
I don't know why you are so possessed with Joseph Prince. This is unbiblical.
For instance, Prince says a blundering drunk sinner can believe and receive healing, when healing is the children's bread.
Prince is totally against works of righteousness. In the end of his little story, his point becomes sinners can receive from God without salvation, and without changing their ways. This is wickedness.
Prince gives example after example against God's Word, indicating he's against God. He's a rebel, leading unsuspecting christians away from God.
This is an example of the wolves that won't spare the flock.
For instance, Prince says a blundering drunk sinner can believe and receive healing, when healing is the children's bread.
Prince is totally against works of righteousness. In the end of his little story, his point becomes sinners can receive from God without salvation, and without changing their ways. This is wickedness.
Prince gives example after example against God's Word, indicating he's against God. He's a rebel, leading unsuspecting christians away from God.
This is an example of the wolves that won't spare the flock.
I read lots of things and lots of different people Lewiz but prefer to post the morning devotional that I'm using each day from JP. I don't always post him. Usually it's only a few times a month. One topic gets discussed a very long time. And the topic is usually about personal Christian faith and living from day to day.
It's just part of one of my own personality traits you could say. Kind of like cutting and pasting different articles and Bible verses.
It's just part of one of my own personality traits you could say. Kind of like cutting and pasting different articles and Bible verses.
P.S. And I don't post anything unbiblical EVER . Interpretation is not heresy Lewiz., it's been going on in the Christian church for thousands of years. I'll re post about how the Bible reveals Jesus in us. It's become one of the best posts from a dear friend I have read yet this month.
john 5:39-40 is Jesus speaking to the Jews that rejected Him.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]You search and investigate and pore over the Scriptures diligently, because you suppose and trust that you have eternal life through them. And these [very Scriptures] testify about Me!
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And still you are not willing [but refuse] to come to Me, so that you might have life.
We can make the scriptures "God" When I say that - it is really our "interpretation" of the scriptures that we make to be a "god" in our own mind. Without the Holy Spirit's revelation to show us Christ - we are at the mercy of our own religious un-renewed minds.
The Bible is not a roadmap or instruction manual in a"completed" sense. The Bible is NOT God - God breathed - inspired - YES!
But the Bible is a book about Jesus. The Bible is not an end to itself - the Bible speaks of Jesus. He is the true reality that the scriptures speak off ( This is why there is so much controversy on the Sabbath Day issue )
Jesus said "...you search the scriptures because you think ( human reasoning ) "in them" you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life." John 5:39-40
Reading the Bible without wanting to know and see Jesus and the Father for whom they truly are is like reading someone else's love letters. You might learn a few things about love but this will not move you toward the one who wrote the letters.
Some people get confused because they think the Bible has all the answers - it does not. It does however point us to the One who "is"the answer! James never said - "If anyone lacks wisdom you should study the Bible - He said - you should ask God Himself. James 1:5 ( God may use a verse in the scriptures or a word from another teacher...etc )
God surely speaks to us through the Bible but if the Bible doesn't lead you to the revelation of the One called Wisdom - you will be no wiser than a Pharisee. If we look for Jesus - the Holy Spirit will reveal Him in the Old Testament.
A mis-guided ( albeit maybe a well intentioned ) teacher/preacher will use the scriptures to tell you what you should do, but a grace/Christ oriented teacher/preacher will use the scriptures to show you what Jesus has done and who you are in Him now because we are in Christ and He is in us. The Holy Spirit in us teaches/guides/reveals to us Jesus and the Father's true character and finished work.
Read the scriptures with the view to "see" Jesus. In Him we see the heart and will of the Father being manifested on this earth. The best translation of the Bible is Jesus!
He is the "living word" within the written word and He is flawless and free of translation errors. All of man's translations have biases and inaccuracies. Sometimes translators give their "doctrinal beliefs" when translating a verse or word.
The scriptures teach us that we are not living by the teaching of the Bible per se - we are living by the life of Christ in us. The source of our life is not the Bible - the source of our life is the Lord Jesus Christ and the Father.
In the Old Testament when it refers to "the word of God" and the life it brings - it was in reality talking about "the living word of God" ( Jesus Himself ) - of which the scriptures are a "shadow" of the real substance - Jesus. ( another reason why strict Sabbath Keepers cannot see Christ as our true Sabbath rest now in the New Covenant - they are stuck in the shadow and think that it is the real )
The Bible shows us the ways Jesus Christ wants to express His life through us to a hurt and dying world. In Him we live, move and have our being. The Bible leads us to the source of life = Jesus Himself.
The Bible is NOT God but we can make our own interpretations of the Bible to be our "god" in our own un-renewed minds. The Holy Spirit has come in us to show us the things "of Christ" and reveal them to us - His beloved children.
Unquote
I agree with this 100%. The reason people get the Bible all mixed up is that Jesus is not being seen or revealed.
john 5:39-40 is Jesus speaking to the Jews that rejected Him.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]You search and investigate and pore over the Scriptures diligently, because you suppose and trust that you have eternal life through them. And these [very Scriptures] testify about Me!
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And still you are not willing [but refuse] to come to Me, so that you might have life.
We can make the scriptures "God" When I say that - it is really our "interpretation" of the scriptures that we make to be a "god" in our own mind. Without the Holy Spirit's revelation to show us Christ - we are at the mercy of our own religious un-renewed minds.
The Bible is not a roadmap or instruction manual in a"completed" sense. The Bible is NOT God - God breathed - inspired - YES!
But the Bible is a book about Jesus. The Bible is not an end to itself - the Bible speaks of Jesus. He is the true reality that the scriptures speak off ( This is why there is so much controversy on the Sabbath Day issue )
Jesus said "...you search the scriptures because you think ( human reasoning ) "in them" you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life." John 5:39-40
Reading the Bible without wanting to know and see Jesus and the Father for whom they truly are is like reading someone else's love letters. You might learn a few things about love but this will not move you toward the one who wrote the letters.
Some people get confused because they think the Bible has all the answers - it does not. It does however point us to the One who "is"the answer! James never said - "If anyone lacks wisdom you should study the Bible - He said - you should ask God Himself. James 1:5 ( God may use a verse in the scriptures or a word from another teacher...etc )
God surely speaks to us through the Bible but if the Bible doesn't lead you to the revelation of the One called Wisdom - you will be no wiser than a Pharisee. If we look for Jesus - the Holy Spirit will reveal Him in the Old Testament.
A mis-guided ( albeit maybe a well intentioned ) teacher/preacher will use the scriptures to tell you what you should do, but a grace/Christ oriented teacher/preacher will use the scriptures to show you what Jesus has done and who you are in Him now because we are in Christ and He is in us. The Holy Spirit in us teaches/guides/reveals to us Jesus and the Father's true character and finished work.
Read the scriptures with the view to "see" Jesus. In Him we see the heart and will of the Father being manifested on this earth. The best translation of the Bible is Jesus!
He is the "living word" within the written word and He is flawless and free of translation errors. All of man's translations have biases and inaccuracies. Sometimes translators give their "doctrinal beliefs" when translating a verse or word.
The scriptures teach us that we are not living by the teaching of the Bible per se - we are living by the life of Christ in us. The source of our life is not the Bible - the source of our life is the Lord Jesus Christ and the Father.
In the Old Testament when it refers to "the word of God" and the life it brings - it was in reality talking about "the living word of God" ( Jesus Himself ) - of which the scriptures are a "shadow" of the real substance - Jesus. ( another reason why strict Sabbath Keepers cannot see Christ as our true Sabbath rest now in the New Covenant - they are stuck in the shadow and think that it is the real )
The Bible shows us the ways Jesus Christ wants to express His life through us to a hurt and dying world. In Him we live, move and have our being. The Bible leads us to the source of life = Jesus Himself.
The Bible is NOT God but we can make our own interpretations of the Bible to be our "god" in our own un-renewed minds. The Holy Spirit has come in us to show us the things "of Christ" and reveal them to us - His beloved children.
Unquote
I agree with this 100%. The reason people get the Bible all mixed up is that Jesus is not being seen or revealed.
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U
cute--
but, we all dance...
[video=youtube;v3nAri5h2jc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3nAri5h2jc[/video]
this is a great discussion, --haven't seen you in a while--but I wish I could figure out why I keep crashing (mood)
just a thought--
is faith enough to keep the plane flying?
not sure it's a good comparison--
but, we all dance...
[video=youtube;v3nAri5h2jc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3nAri5h2jc[/video]
this is a great discussion, --haven't seen you in a while--but I wish I could figure out why I keep crashing (mood)
just a thought--
is faith enough to keep the plane flying?
not sure it's a good comparison--