Healing through the Son

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,943
113
These truths are not only for healing but also for all other things pertaining to life and godliness. Knowing and believing who we are IN Christ is a major factor in walking it out. Healing is just one of many things we have in the atonement.
.

Here is a repost of something I wrote on whether healing is in the atonement.

What is found in Isaiah 53, and all through Isaiah, is that a Messiah would come, who would heal the people of their sin sickness. And that is the atonement. Jesus death on the cross paid for our sins. It's called redemption, or propitiation, or other words.

Atonement = payment for sins (in our place)

Isaiah also contains prophecies that would identify Jesus when he appeared on earth. He was a suffering servant, in Isa. 53:1-3. He was smitten, beaten, etc. It also prophecies he would be hung on a cross, and that Jesus would heal the people who lived at the same time as him. That is cross referenced in Matt 8:16-17, which clearly says that Jesus healed, so that, Isaiah would be fulfilled.

It no where, in any place says that because Jesus healed and fulfilled the prophecy in Isa. 53, that in the 21st century, that EVERYONE who had enough faith would be healed. And if you weren't healed, it was because you didn't have enough faith. It no where says, everyone would be healed, all the time. It says no where healing is contained in the atonement. I have never said healing was in the atonement, because it is NEVER in the text, New or Old Testament!

It also clearly says, in Isaiah 1 that Israel was sick in its whole head, from the sole of the foot to the head, with bruises and sores and raw wounds. This is a metaphor for the sin sickness of Israel. It is also part of the metaphor in Isa. 53:4-5 is the prophecy, that is fulfilled in Matt 8:17.

The big issue, as I review this in various translations and in Greek, is that it really difficult to get a read on either Isa. 53:4 or Matt. 8:17, because there is such variation in the various translations, because the words have more than one definition, and even the same translations use different words for the prophecies in the OT and the fulfillment in the NT.

For instance, the word ἀσθενείας can be translated as "illness or weakness." Bauer (BDAG) notes three uses of the word, which is a feminine noun.

1. state of debilitating illness, sickness, disease. Matt 8:17
2. incapacity for something or experience of limitation, weakness eg. 1 Cor. 15:43, Hebrews 5:2
3. lack of confidence of feeling of inadequacy, weakness. Of Pauls' self-effacement, timidity 1 Cor. 2:3\

However, there is enough wiggle room, that if a translator wanted to downplay how Jesus healed, the word, could be used in the sense of lack of confidence. This shows how easy it can be for previous theology to influence where the translation is going. Just a warning to anyone who digs for a translation they like, to prove or disprove a point.

So, comparing this fulfillment of prophecy, with the actual prophecy in Isa. 53:4, I find, that the exact words are not repeated even in the same versions. And not one of these versions match each other, let alone themselves.

"But he lifted up our illnesses,
he carried our pain;
even though we thought he was being punished,
attacked by God, and afflicted for something he had done." Isa. 53:4 NET

" When it was evening, many demon-possessed people were brought to him. He drove out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick. In this way what was spoken by Isaiah the prophet was fulfilled:
"He took our weaknesses and carried our diseases." Matt 8:16-17 NET




"Yet He Himself bore our sicknesses,
and He carried our pains;
but we in turn regarded Him stricken,
struck down by God, and afflicted." Isa. 53:4 HCSB

"When evening came, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. He drove out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick,so that what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:
He Himself took our weaknesses
and carried our diseases." Matt 8:16-17 HCSB



"When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." Matt 8:16-17 KJV

" Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted." Isa. 53:4 KJV

"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted." Isa. 53:4 ESV

"This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” Matt 8:17 ESV

"Ὀψίας δὲ γενομένης προσήνεγκαν αὐτῷ δαιμονιζομένους πολλούς· καὶ ἐξέβαλεν τὰ πνεύματα λόγῳ, καὶ πάντας τοὺς κακῶς ἔχοντας ἐθεράπευσεν· 17 ὅπως πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Ἠσαΐου τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος· Αὐτὸς τὰς ἀσθενείας ἡμῶν ἔλαβεν καὶ τὰς νόσους ἐβάστασεν." Matt 8:16-17 Greek.

Now, this is VERY important! None of the versions I looked at, does the NT fulfillment perfectly mirror the OT prophecy. Here is a look at what the LXX says.

"Isaiah 53:4 – This one bears our sins and suffers pain for us, and we accounted him to be in trouble and calamity and ill-treatment." Isa. 53:4 LXX in translation.

"ἀλλὰ τὸ εἶδος αὐτοῦ ἄτιμον ἐκλεῖπον παρὰ πάντας ἀνθρώπους ἄνθρωπος ἐν πληγῇ ὢν καὶ εἰδὼς φέρειν μαλακίαν ὅτι ἀπέστραπται τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ ἠτιμάσθη καὶ οὐκ ἐλογίσθη" Isa. 53:3 (4 in our Bibles!)

The key word "μαλακίαν" or malakian a feminine noun, which in Greek means:
gloss - softness, weakness, weakliness, ailment
1. condition of bodily weakness, debility, weakness, sickness (Matt 4:23, 9:3; 10:1)
2. condition of inner weakness, faint hearted, dependency, lack of energy which is not found in the NT.

Do we translate it as "sickness" or as "inner weakness?"

And, please note the same words do not even appear in Greek in the prophecy in Isa. 53:4 and Matt 8:16-17, although in looking at a cross section of translations, they are universal in their translation of Kakos as "sickness." See below. In fact, the word Kakos, does NOT readily translate as "sickness" although most versions translate it that way, and certainly Jesus did heal their diseases, νόσους in the prophecy. (Physical malady, disease, illness!)

Well, I do believe the both Isaiah and his audience, and later the translation committee for the LXX knew what they were talking about. But, do we? It is hard, 2600 some years later to reach back in the past, and decide exactly what Isaiah was talking about. And, this whole discussion reflects the fact, that in our society, we constantly want to pin down words with mathematical precision, which did not exist in those days. No computers, just valiant efforts to retain the original words, by scribes, which wasn't always successful. So, the next time some of you go searching for a translation that reflects YOUR personal theology, remember the ancient people would not even begin to understand anything to do with complete purity, nor that there wasn't a LOT of leeway on the meanings of word.

My take home?

Jesus died on the cross for our sins. That is clearly the atonement, and what the book of Isaiah prophecies. It is a book written both to warn the Israelites an Judaeans that they needed to repent and return to the Lord.

Then, it is a book on who that coming Lord is! Jesus is the Suffering servant, who suffered for our sins, and died on the cross for our salvation. Isa. 53:4 is a clear prophecy of Jesus earthly ministry. It says that Jesus will heal their diseases,

In Order to FULFILL what was spoke by the prophet Isaiah - that being, he would heal the illnesses and diseases of the people of the first century. Even to ALL their Kakos! πάντας τοὺς κακῶς Now, kakos is another word with many definitions.

1 Pertaining to sing socially or morally reprehensible,bad, evil.
a. of human characteristics, actions, emotions,plans - bad
2. Pertaining to being harmful or injurious - evil, injurious, dangerous, pernicious
3. Certain passages far between 1 & 2, harm caused by evil.

Jesus did not die on the cross for our healing! There simply is NO way that this prophecy means, every believer is healed for all time, if they just have enough faith. Or until it is manifested.

Yes, during his earthly ministry Jesus fulfilled this prophecy, WHILE HE WAS ALIVE! So, Jesus does heal. And I believe he does heal today, I have never said differently. But, healing on demand, naming and claiming it, or healing as part of the atonement is simply not found in these passages, nor in 1 Peter 2:24, which I don't have time to get into today.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
981
113
33
I am so confused, one minute you say it may be, and then you seem unsure, you admit to illness, but come back with yes we have the keys to healing?
I worded it in such a way so that you can reach your own conclusions and consider it, not that I was unsure.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,943
113
Another repost


Look at the context of Isa. 53:5-6 (And do not leave off verse 6, because it is important in context!) It is about SIN!! Not about healing. Even the Septuagint acknowledges that. Israel was sin sick and needed "healing!" Healing from what? Let's look at the verses again.

"But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:5-6


Let's see the main words:

transgressions
iniquities
chastisement
gone astray
turned our own way
the iniquity of us all.



These words are all about sin - rebellion, iniquity. You can't just pluck out the 5th line and claim it is about healing, when all the surrounding verses, in fact all of Isa. 53 is about sin, and the Messiah and the atonement saving us from our sins.


There there is the 1 Peter passage, which quotes it.

""He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV"

Notice the words in the first part of the sentence have to do with the last part of the verse.

bore our sins
die to sin
live to righteousness.


So what are we healed from?? From sin and unrighteousness. There is absolutely nothing to do in context with physical healing, in either Isa. 53:5-6 or 1 Peter 2:24.

Try reading the verses for what they are saying, not the lies you have been fed by the Word Faith movement!!

In fact, if you read Isa. 53 and those verses in context, here are the verses that finish that chapter on the suffering Messiah. What are they about?

They are about salvation from sin and evil!

"Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors." Isa. 53:10-12


Read all of Isaiah 53, and realize it goes together. One part of one line, talking about healing, in the context of talking about healing of our spiritual sins, means those "wounds" are sin and death. Not my metaphor, but Isaiah's.

And if you really want to know what the word WOUND means to Isaiah, then read the whole book of Isaiah. Because the opening chapter explains this prophecy is to a "diseased" (spiritually) and unrighteous and sinful Israel.


"1 The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

2 Hear me, you heavens! Listen, earth!For the Lord has spoken:
“I reared children and brought them up,
but they have rebelled against me.
3 The ox knows its master,
the donkey its owner’s manger,
but Israel does not know,
my people do not understand.”

4 Woe to the sinful nation,
a people whose guilt is great,
a brood of evildoers,
children given to corruption!
They have forsaken the Lord;
they have spurned the Holy One of Israel
and turned their backs on him.

5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness—
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with olive oil." Isa. 1;1-6


The entire prophecy is to Israel, so that they will hear about the Messiah, who will heal their diseased and sin sick land. Note verses 1 and 3! To Judah, Jerusalem, and in verse 3 - Israel.

Do not make this prophecy about yourself, unless you take it in context.

What does God call Israel? A SINFUL NATION! He is talking about the wounds of Israel spiritually. This is Isaiah, not me, not my opinion.

Last part of verse 5 says,

"Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted."

Notice that the metaphor of an injured head - or our thoughts is intricately linked to the WHOLE HEART BEING AFFLICTED!

Why are they affected?

Because they are a people:

laden with iniquity
offspring of evil doers
children who deal corruptly
forsake the Lord
despised the Holy One of Israel
utterly estranged Verse 4

This is what context is all about!! What was Isaiah's message?

"And he said, “Go, and say to this people:“‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
10 Make the heart of this people dull,
and their ears heavy,
and blind their eyes;
lest they see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”
11 Then I said, “How long, O Lord?” Isa. 6:9-11


Israel would not and could not listen, but God warned them anyway. And he gave hope, in the future suffering servant, the Messiah, who would heal the "wounds" of sin sickness. That is the prophecy in Isa. 53, connected to Isaiah 1.

Why? Why did the Father have to send his Son? To physically heal us? Not there in any way, shape of form! He sent his Son to suffer and die because we were diseased from sin and evil.

"Why will you still be struck down?
Why will you continue to rebel?
The whole head is sick,
and the whole heart faint.
6 From the sole of the foot even to the head,
there is no soundness in it,
but bruises and sores
and raw wounds;
they are not pressed out or bound up
or softened with oil." Isa. 1:5-6


Those wounds in Isa. 53, are in context with words about sin and transgression. There is not a single word there about physical healing, although certainly, part of the Messiah's ministry was to heal us from our sin, and physical healing was part of Jesus earthly ministry.

Wounds - sin, iniquity, unrighteousness, evil, corruption, forsaking God, get it??

"Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin," Isa. 53:10


See - The end of Isaiah 53 makes it clear - The suffering servant makes his life an offering for SIN!

Another reason why both WoF and Hypergrace are such dangerous heresies. They take the Biblical definitions and the purpose Christ came to die and twist them beyond recognition from what the Bible says

"She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”" Matt 1:21

My challenge to all is that you read Isaiah and all the Old Testament prophets, and then you will understand the message of the Bible. That we are a sinful and evil people, and Jesus came to save us from our sins and make us righteous. Jesus healed to show he was the Messiah, and he continues to heal, if it is his will. But healing is NOT IN THE ATONEMENT.

If you disagree with my exegetics, please feel free to post the content, the Hebrew/Greek etc, and show where I am wrong. If you just ignore this, you are saying I am right, or rather, God has not said "healing is in the atonement."
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,420
12,905
113
Mostly what you don't do is answer questions about Bible examples that disprove the theories you try to pass of as Bible truth. I'm beginning to understand why some seem impatient with you.
"Impatient" is putting it mildly. Outraged would be more accurate. JM tells us that she fully agrees with this FALSE GOSPEL (quoted below) but she has not thrown away her reading glasses, and Ben has not believed God for 20/20 vision.

Healing is a part of the gospel of the grace of Christ as the forgiveness of sins is.


Imagine the damage this can do to the true Gospel.
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
303
83
Angela., I can appreciate your ideas on the texts and greek swirly do dads it's all very nice. But I've learned there is more to the text than meets the eye. When I read the Bible it's not seen the same way you do. For all you just wrote that is not how I read the chapters and verses. When I'm asking the Holy Spirit to lead me to where I need to be in understanding the application it's not done the way you do it Angela.


In Romans 12:2 [SUP]2 [/SUP]Do not be conformed to this world (this age), [fashioned after and adapted to its external, superficial customs], but be transformed (changed) by the [entire] renewal of your mind [by its new ideals and its new attitude], so that you may prove [for yourselves] what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God, even the thing which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His sight for you].

This has everything to do with how to see the Bible and the world for that matter and our relation to them. We have to see it by the new creation we are made In Christ. Not according to our old manner of living and seeing. We daily have to be transformed by the renewing of our minds so we ARE ABLE TO PROVE what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
These verses are 100% applicable to the subject at hand here. I don't see how you miss it Angela.



The Holy Spirit often shows me more than what is in the exact text about healing or about the the fruits of the Spirit or any subject for that matter. I'll read something in the morning and while reading something totally different in the evening., He will bring to my mind the Bible reading from the morning or even from the week before. He does this when we allow Him to teach us and lead us into the truth. His truth for us as we are learning about Jesus. Not our truth from our limited resources.

He always brings to the forefront of what I'm reading lovely principles about JESUS and His love and grace and how that is the way to interpret a text for my personal study.

Looking into the Word of God these days my goal is to SEE JESUS. And the Holy Spirit has taught me that amazing truth because it was not taught to me in the many years of being a Christian before learning to let the Holy Spirit teach me.

AND how amazing is this TRUTH that we all have Him and when we need to know what to do and how to interpret the Bible each time we read it. It's not always by formal teaching or someone else needing to teach us. Some things we must learn one on One when we are alone before the Word with the Spirit ministering to our spirit.

1 John 2:27
[SUP]27 [/SUP]But as for you, the anointing (the sacred appointment, the unction) which you received from Him abides [[SUP][a][/SUP]permanently] in you; [so] then you have no need that anyone should instruct you. But just as His anointing teaches you concerning everything and is true and is no falsehood, so you must abide in (live in, never depart from) Him [being [SUP][b][/SUP]rooted in Him, knit to Him], just as [His anointing] has taught you [to do].


There comes a time when we need to allow the Holy Spirit free reign to show us the applications to our inner man as we walk out our faith. The goal has to always be to see Jesus and interpret each verse getting a better focus on Jesus and then that shows us who we are.
 
Last edited:
P

pottersclay

Guest
My two cents......does God heal all the time? No. Why? He's God.

So you prayed and prayed to be healed...fasted....done everything you can think of ....still not healed. Just because your not healed doesn't mean God didn't respond. Perhaps his answer was....no.
Question is where do you go from there? Is he any less the God you believed in before you realized the no answer? Do you think perhaps is it because of sin? Maybe lack of faith? Maybe your not really saved? Or your being punished.
Is it so hard to comprehend that the Lord can say ...no?
According to scripture Jesus was told no by God ....where...in the garden...when he asked "is there any other way".........no.
Remember our life has been given over to Christ. Our fate is sealed...weather it be life or death...crippled, blind, ect...what ever the purpose God has chosen.
Remember it was a dieing Christ that brought a roman solider and a thief to the truth. A wounded Christ that showed pilate a man of innocence.
A thorn in the side that kept Paul humble and focused. The death of Steven is believed to have pricked Paul's heart. Jacobs encounter with God left him limping.
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
303
83
Also., this walking in the Spirit gives believers a great confidence not in ourselves but in the working of the Holy Spirit doing what He does best. We can know when we seek out the truth in the Bible it puts the responsibility on the Holy Spirit to teach us these things. We don't have to worry He will lead us astray or lead us anywhere we would be ashamed to go.

The only reason I even dare to post so often on CC is because of the leading of the Holy Spirit.
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,125
135
63
"Impatient" is putting it mildly. Outraged would be more accurate. JM tells us that she fully agrees with this FALSE GOSPEL (quoted below) but she has not thrown away her reading glasses, and Ben has not believed God for 20/20 vision.


Imagine the damage this can do to the true Gospel.
So you do not believe healing and or forgiveness of sins is part of the gospel of grace? Not being argumentative but if the gospel (the news too good to be true) isn't about forgiveness of sins and healing, what is it about?
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,943
113
Angela., I can appreciate your ideas on the texts and greek swirly do dads it's all very nice. But I've learned there is more to the text than meets the eye. When I read the Bible it's not seen the same way you do. For all you just wrote that is not how I read the chapters and verses. When I'm asking the Holy Spirit to lead me to where I need to be in understanding the application it's not done the way you do it Angela.


In Romans 12:2 [SUP]2 [/SUP]Do not be conformed to this world (this age), [fashioned after and adapted to its external, superficial customs], but be transformed (changed) by the [entire] renewal of your mind [by its new ideals and its new attitude], so that you may prove [for yourselves] what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God, even the thing which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His sight for you].

This has everything to do with how to see the Bible and the world for that matter and our relation to them. We have to see it by the new creation we are made In Christ. Not according to our old manner of living and seeing. We daily have to be transformed by the renewing of our minds so we ARE ABLE TO PROVE what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
These verses are 100% applicable to the subject at hand here. I don't see how you miss it Angela.



The Holy Spirit often shows me more than what is in the exact text about healing or about the the fruits of the Spirit or any subject for that matter.
I'll read something in the morning and while reading something totally different in the evening., He will bring to my mind the Bible reading from the morning or even from the week before. He does this when we allow Him to teach us and lead us into the truth. His truth for us as we are learning about Jesus. Not our truth from our limited resources.

He always brings to the forefront of what I'm reading lovely principles about JESUS and His love and grace and how that is the way to interpret a text for my personal study.

Looking into the Word of God these days my goal is to SEE JESUS. And the Holy Spirit has taught me that amazing truth because it was not taught to me in the many years of being a Christian before learning to let the Holy Spirit teach me.

AND how amazing is this TRUTH that we all have Him and when we need to know what to do and how to interpret the Bible each time we read it. It's not always by formal teaching or someone else needing to teach us. Some things we must learn one on One when we are alone before the Word with the Spirit ministering to our spirit.

1 John 2:27
[SUP]27 [/SUP]But as for you, the anointing (the sacred appointment, the unction) which you received from Him abides [[SUP][a][/SUP]permanently] in you; [so] then you have no need that anyone should instruct you. But just as His anointing teaches you concerning everything and is true and is no falsehood, so you must abide in (live in, never depart from) Him [being [SUP][b][/SUP]rooted in Him, knit to Him], just as [His anointing] has taught you [to do].


There comes a time when we need to allow the Holy Spirit free reign to show us the applications to our inner man as we walk out our faith. The goal has to always be to see Jesus and interpret each verse getting a better focus on Jesus and then that shows us who we are.

When you go beyond what the Bible actually says, that means the Holy Spirit is NOT leading you! God never twists his words, to say what it does not say! The Holy Spirit would never lead you astray.

Therefore, since you have ravaged the text with your own opinions and eisegesis, one can only assume that NO, the Holy Spirit did not lead you there. And blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, is the only sin which cannot be forgiven.

" I tell you the truth, people will be forgiven for all sins, even all the blasphemies they utter. 29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin” Mark 3:28-30
[FONT=&quot]
You are receiving extra-Biblical revelation from somewhere, and it cannot be the Holy Spirit, because he would never cause someone to read INTO the biblical text, something that is not there. You insult the Holy Spirit, with this horrible wickedness and pride!

And I see so clearly, this antinomianism, has taken you into deep error. As I said in my post, Romans 12:1-2 is all about the flesh (verse 1) and the mind (verse 2). But you have made it about yourself, and revelations that are not from God. You are in a very, very scary state. I pray you will repent of this sin against God.
[/FONT]
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,943
113
Joanie, what on earth are you talking about?? This portion of Scripture has NOTHING to do with healing, at all! It is not even mentioned as a gift in verses 3-10

You are ravaging the text, by making God's "will" about healing, rather than about - God's will! You are doing eisegeis, which is reading INTO the text, what you want it to say! (Eis - in, into Greek)

Chapter 12 begins Paul's exhortations to the Romans. He wants them to think in a Christian way, rather than thee ways of a Jewish rabbi, or a Gentile philosopher. This is about ETHICS!

Paul wants them to think about:
1. The basic factors involved in the formation of a Christian's ethical consciousness
2. The essential motivations of a Christian's ethical thinking and action
3. Questions regarding how a believer in Jesus is to determine how he or she should think and act in the various personal, societal and ecclesiastical situations.
4. The need to put all these matters into practice.

I'm just going to deal with the first 2 verses, which is plenty to think about!

"Therefore I exhort you, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a sacrifice—alive, holy, and pleasing to God—which is your reasonable service. 2 Do not be conformed to this present world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may test and approve what is the will of God—what is good and well-pleasing and perfect." Romans 12:1-2 NET

Therefore, takes us back to chapters 9-11, and what Paul wrote about the mercies of God.

Verse 1:
Παρακαλῶ - to exhort, encourage someone to do something. Often used of troops who were about to go into battle. Here it is a request based on the apostolic authority of Paul.

οἰκτιρμῶν - Gentive Active Participle - mercy, compassion, and pity arising out form the miserable state of th done in need. Plural may be reflective of the individual acts of compassion, or due to Hebrew rachamim (deep compassion). the Genitive informs the reader that the divine mercies are the power by which this exhortation should take possession of one's will. Of course, these mercies are from God - τοῦ θεοῦ.

παραστῆσαι Aor. Active Infinitive - to present a sacrifice, literally meaning "to place beside" for any purpose. Infinitive direct discourse as the object of the verb.

τὰ σώματα - the body. It refers to the physical body in verse 1. Verse 2 singles out the ind for renewal.

θυσίαν ζῶσαν - Double accusative - θυσίαν - offering, sacrifice. ζῶσαν - living Present Active Ptcp. The living sacrifice stands in contrast to those which were killed and refers to constant dedication.

ἁγίαν -Acc. singular holy, set apart from profane of daily use and dedicated to the service of God.

εὐάρεστον - well-pleasing, acceptable w. Dative.

λογικὴν - pertaining to reason, rational, spiritual. The use of our bodies is characterized by conscious, intelligent, consecrated devotion to the service of God. The word could mean "spiritual" in the sense of inner or real, "rational" in the sense of appropriate as human beings as rational and spiritual creatures of God, "rational" in the sense of acceptable to human reason, or "logical" in th sense of fitting the circumstances.

λατρείαν - service, worship - Accusative in apposition to "pertaining to."

Verse 2
συσχηματίζεσθε - Present, Imperative Passive -form or mold something after something. It refers to external conformity. The verb indicates the adoption or initiation of a pose or received mode of conduct. Present Imperative indicates the discontinuation of an action in progress or else that the action is not to be continually done. Permissive passive, "Do no let yourselves by molded."

μεταμορφοῦσθε - Present Imperative Passive - to transform, to change the inward reality, "but be transformed in your inmost nature." Permissive and theological passive "let yourselves be transformed by God.

ἀνακαινώσει - Dative Singular - renewing. Instrumental Dative - "by the renewing" Renewing our minds is, by definition, an internal process. God is at work in us, changing us from the very way that we think.

τοῦ νοός - Genitive Singular - mind, the thinking power, reason, in its moral quality and activity. Objective Genitive

δοκιμάζειν - Present Active Infinitive - to prove by testing, to accept as approved after testing.

God's mercy manifested in the Spirit's work of inward renewal does impel us towards the obedience the gospel demands. Looking at the words "conform" and 'transform" we find them to be very different words in Greek. They have different roots, unlike English, and most commentators believe that "conform" refers to a superficial resemblance, whereas "transformed" refers to an inward and genuine resemblance.

Paul is looking for a transformation at the deepest level that is infinitely more significant than conformity to the world's pattern that is distinctive in so many lives.

In the word "transforming" the tense present, and in this case, the "renewing of the mind" is a continuing process with the Holy Spirit initiating and for us - obedience.

When a person comes to Christ, that person is "transferred" into the new age or realm. He or she is no longer under sin's dominion. (See Romans 6). Yet, sin still affects the believer. Although we belong to the new era introduced by Christ, the old era is still with us. We still live in a world strongly influenced by sin and ungodly ways of thinking and believing.

We are NOT magically set apart from the world when we believe. Indeed, God wants us to stay in this world, so that, as "salt and light" we may redeem it for him.

It is the grand salvation-historical scheme that informs Paul's passing reference to τῷ αἰῶνι τούτῳ "this world" (or age - verse 2). Though ever-present, pressing in on us from every side, this age must not "press us into its mold." Remember that we belong to the new age Christ inaugurated, we must seek to live out the values of that new age, allowing the Spirit to transform our innermost thoughts and attitudes.

We need to understand that God wants internal transformation. The heart of the matter is clearly the work of God's Spirit changing the way we think from within. But because we still live in a world hostile to God and are still prone to interpret God's Spirit for our own selfish advantage, we also need commandments to indicate when we misunderstand the Spirit or fail to internalize His values.

These verses are about ethics, nothing to do with shaping your mind in a way that you will be healed of your ailments. We are guided by our minds, in the process of being renewed so that they perfectly reflect God's will. But that process will never be complete in this lifetime. So we need the external guidance of God's commands. Put the commands at the heart of ethics, and we end up with a superficial incomplete obedience. But exclude the commands entirely and we end up with self-centred and erratic obedience.

That is what these 2 verses are about. As for the rest of Romans 12, it really constitutes a separate part of the book of Romans.
Reposting for clarification!

:)
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
981
113
33
How could I not be hostile to a doctrine which killed a friend, and left me in a deep depression when I wasn’t instantly, (or gradually) healed?

How could I not be upset, when Joanie constantly shares these devotionals and blogs that are exegetically wrong? How could I not get defensive for anyone reading these posts of yours and hers, when people are going to be damaged physically and spiritually by this absolutely wrong piece of teaching?

Seriously, how could I not be hostile to you, when you have called me names and put me down because I refuse to knuckle under and believe these pack of lies from the devil?

The fact is, the Word Faith movement killed one of my best friends, when she refused medical treatment. When I wasn’t healed of Rheumatoid Arthritis, a systemic disease that attacks the joints, and organs like kidneys, lungs, heart and skin, and I was put down and told it was because I didn’t have enough faith? Or the new angle which Joanie has said over and over again on this thread and others, that I am “walking in the flesh.”

What lies and garbage!! When you Word Faith people come to realize you are preaching a false doctrine, that pulls people away from God, and apologize for it, then I will stop being on the attack.

I would love to just be nice, and just post the Scriptures. I even did that once:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/144809-word-faith-look-what-bible-says.html

But, as I saw the close mindedness, got told by people like know1 that I was not saved because I am not healed, and thinking back to 2 long years I turned away from God, (although he was faithful to me), I just see the senselessness and stupidity of this terrible 20th century unbiblical doctrine.

I shudder to think how merrily you Word Faith people think you are helping people by sharing this “new revelation.” Except it doesn’t work at all, it is not exegetically correct, and it damages people’s bodies and souls. Think this through for once.

If you say I should be healed, because it is in the atonement, guaranteed, where does that leave me? I think know1 actually got it right. The only logical conclusion of Word Faith, is that if you are NOT healed, you are NOT saved.

So, besides the personal damage, the exegetics is just so wrong and so bad, it is like an insult to me every time I see this Word Faith lie posted and defended.

Got it? Stop insulting me and everyone else by posting this garbage, and you will find me a kind, compassionate and caring person. Right, like I am when I do chaplain work, with the sick and dying! Like I am with people who don’t insist upon posting one after another thread defending outright heresy. Sometimes, righteous anger is called for.

Here’s a suggestion, maybe look up how I am in the Family Forum. Sometimes I get tough with people, but I most try to see them through God’s eyes, and offer suggestions to send them in his direction. I disgree with people all the time here, but without hostility. It’s this garbage that is a trigger for me. And God has really healed me of the pain this damaging doctrine did to me.

But like Blain, I want to stop people who come here looking for answers, and stumble onto this thread, and don’t have the hermeneutical knowledge to understand how it is a lie. I am going to be incredibly emphatic every post, to drive home the point, that Word Faith and hypergrace are lies, and I will stand against every single post made on this topic, so NO ONE ever needs to be seduced by this false gospel.

I’ve been reading through the prophets, and let’s face it, no one wants to be told they are being deceived by false teachers and prophets. But, all those books from Isaiah through to Malachi are there for a reason! To warn the people of God. No, you can’t warn people in love! They won’t listen when you warn them in anger! Well, maybe a few will? That is my hope and prayer!

I answered,“Who would listen
if I spoke to them and warned them?
Their ears are so closed
that they cannot hear!
Indeed, what the Lord says is offensive to them.
They do not like it at all.
11 I am as full of anger as you are, Lord,
I am tired of trying to hold it in.” Jer. 6:10-11


“says the Lord.13 “That is because, from the least important to the most important of them,
all of them are greedy for dishonest gain.
Prophets and priests alike,
all of them practice deceit.
14 They offer only superficial help
for the harm my people have suffered.
They say, ‘Everything will be all right!’
But everything is not all right!
15 Are they ashamed because they have done such shameful things?
No, they are not at all ashamed.
They do not even know how to blush!
So they will die, just like others have died.
They will be brought to ruin when I punish them,” Jer. 6:12d-15


Yes, I do know the context. The prophets are leading people away from God with their man-centered gospel. The people are worshiping false gods and following false teachers. Just exactly like the Word Faith heresy!

16 The Lord who rules over all says to the people of Jerusalem:
“Do not listen to what
those prophets are saying to you.
They are filling you with false hopes.
They are reporting visions of their own imaginations,
not something the Lord has given them to say.” Jeremiah 23:16

“For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.” Matt. 24:24



I hope that answers your questions.
Called you names and put you down? I won't get into that, and will just say, I appreciate your honesty in this response of why you approach this topic the way that you do.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
981
113
33
How could I not be upset, when Joanie constantly shares these devotionals and blogs that are exegetically wrong? How could I not get defensive for anyone reading these posts of yours and hers, when people are going to be damaged physically and spiritually by this absolutely wrong piece of teaching?

Seriously, how could I not be hostile to you, when you have called me names and put me down because I refuse to knuckle under and believe these pack of lies from the devil?

The fact is, the Word Faith movement killed one of my best friends, when she refused medical treatment. When I wasn’t healed of Rheumatoid Arthritis, a systemic disease that attacks the joints, and organs like kidneys, lungs, heart and skin, and I was put down and told it was because I didn’t have enough faith? Or the new angle which Joanie has said over and over again on this thread and others, that I am “walking in the flesh.”

What lies and garbage!! When you Word Faith people come to realize you are preaching a false doctrine, that pulls people away from God, and apologize for it, then I will stop being on the attack.

I would love to just be nice, and just post the Scriptures. I even did that once:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/144809-word-faith-look-what-bible-says.html

But, as I saw the close mindedness, got told by people like know1 that I was not saved because I am not healed, and thinking back to 2 long years I turned away from God, (although he was faithful to me), I just see the senselessness and stupidity of this terrible 20th century unbiblical doctrine.

I shudder to think how merrily you Word Faith people think you are helping people by sharing this “new revelation.” Except it doesn’t work at all, it is not exegetically correct, and it damages people’s bodies and souls. Think this through for once.

If you say I should be healed, because it is in the atonement, guaranteed, where does that leave me? I think know1 actually got it right. The only logical conclusion of Word Faith, is that if you are NOT healed, you are NOT saved.

So, besides the personal damage, the exegetics is just so wrong and so bad, it is like an insult to me every time I see this Word Faith lie posted and defended.

Got it? Stop insulting me and everyone else by posting this garbage, and you will find me a kind, compassionate and caring person. Right, like I am when I do chaplain work, with the sick and dying! Like I am with people who don’t insist upon posting one after another thread defending outright heresy. Sometimes, righteous anger is called for.

Here’s a suggestion, maybe look up how I am in the Family Forum. Sometimes I get tough with people, but I most try to see them through God’s eyes, and offer suggestions to send them in his direction. I disgree with people all the time here, but without hostility. It’s this garbage that is a trigger for me. And God has really healed me of the pain this damaging doctrine did to me.

But like Blain, I want to stop people who come here looking for answers, and stumble onto this thread, and don’t have the hermeneutical knowledge to understand how it is a lie. I am going to be incredibly emphatic every post, to drive home the point, that Word Faith and hypergrace are lies, and I will stand against every single post made on this topic, so NO ONE ever needs to be seduced by this false gospel.

I’ve been reading through the prophets, and let’s face it, no one wants to be told they are being deceived by false teachers and prophets. But, all those books from Isaiah through to Malachi are there for a reason! To warn the people of God. No, you can’t warn people in love! They won’t listen when you warn them in anger! Well, maybe a few will? That is my hope and prayer!

I answered,“Who would listen
if I spoke to them and warned them?
Their ears are so closed
that they cannot hear!
Indeed, what the Lord says is offensive to them.
They do not like it at all.
11 I am as full of anger as you are, Lord,
I am tired of trying to hold it in.” Jer. 6:10-11


“says the Lord.13 “That is because, from the least important to the most important of them,
all of them are greedy for dishonest gain.
Prophets and priests alike,
all of them practice deceit.
14 They offer only superficial help
for the harm my people have suffered.
They say, ‘Everything will be all right!’
But everything is not all right!
15 Are they ashamed because they have done such shameful things?
No, they are not at all ashamed.
They do not even know how to blush!
So they will die, just like others have died.
They will be brought to ruin when I punish them,” Jer. 6:12d-15


Yes, I do know the context. The prophets are leading people away from God with their man-centered gospel. The people are worshiping false gods and following false teachers. Just exactly like the Word Faith heresy!

16 The Lord who rules over all says to the people of Jerusalem:
“Do not listen to what
those prophets are saying to you.
They are filling you with false hopes.
They are reporting visions of their own imaginations,
not something the Lord has given them to say.” Jeremiah 23:16

“For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.” Matt. 24:24



I hope that answers your questions.
I don't believe anyone has said that salvation and healing are interchangeable, through the atonement. So for you to not be healed physically in the natural has no relevance to your spiritual status before God (that is, reconciled and born-again). There are many things that are ours through Christ's finished work, and just because we are not currently experiencing their existence in our lives doesn't make them any less true.

For example, we are reconciled to God and our sins are forgiven. This means that we can go before God without condemnation, having no hindrance to be in His presence. Yet, what is the Christian experience when they have sinned? Guilt, shame, condemnation, and alienation from God. Not on God's part, but theirs. Christ's finished work has brought reconciliation but not all Christians walk in this truth.

The point is that Jesus through His suffering has bought us many things, and many of these things we do not experience due to tradition, theology, and doctrines. Healing, though purchased and applied to us through the name of Jesus, is not something we automatically experience in the natural for different reasons but nonetheless it is still something available to us. It has no relevance to your salvation. It is just one of the many aspects of what the Lord has made available to us, through Jesus Christ.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,420
12,905
113
So you do not believe healing and or forgiveness of sins is part of the gospel of grace? Not being argumentative but if the gospel (the news too good to be true) isn't about forgiveness of sins and healing, what is it about?
Forgiveness of sins is about the healing of the soul. If God so chooses He may heal the body at the same time. But to claim that physical healing is guaranteed in salvation is simply not true, and could do a great deal of damage.

Suppose you were communicating with a paraplegic about salvation and what Christ has done for his soul. And then you added that "As soon as you are saved you will be completely healed and walking about normally, because that is a part of the Gospel. Just believe it". Then the man gets saved but sees absolutely no change in his physical condition. What do you think that will do to his new found faith?
 
Last edited:

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,125
135
63
I do not believe salvation = physical healing. God heals whom He will for His purposes. Again, I can not speak for God or anyone else. I only know He healed me.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
981
113
33
Forgiveness of sins is about the healing of the soul. If God so chooses He may heal the body at the same time. But to claim that physical healing is guaranteed in salvation is simply not true, and could do a great deal of damage.

Suppose you were communicating with a paraplegic about salvation and what Christ has done for his soul. And then you added that "As soon as you are saved you will be completely healed and walking about normally, because that is a part of the Gospel. Just believe it". Then the man gets saved but sees absolutely no change in his physical condition. What do you think that will do to his new found faith?
Again, Nehemiah, no one is equating salvation and healing in the atonement. We, or at least I am, saying that through Christ's suffering and sacrifice He has made healing available having been made a curse for us, taking the full punishment of our sins upon Himself.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
We weren’t healed of sin. We died to sin. There was no healing of it, He started over. We were reborn in righteousness. Nowhere in Scripture does it teach we were healed from sin. That IS a doctrinal interpretation. And it is reading into the text 100%. We are not righteous independent of Christ. We are righteous IN Christ.
 
Last edited:

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
Paul explained believers were getting sick and even dying because they didn’t discern the Body of Christ. That creates a connection to understanding the Body of Christ and being healthy. Just in this instance alone we see it’s possible to heap self-judgment on ourselves. And sickness and even death can be a result of it. That’s 100% Scripture.
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,125
135
63
1 Corinthians 11:28-32

28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

1 Corinthians 11:28-32 amp
28 But a person must [prayerfully] examine himself [and his relationship to Christ], and only when he has done so should he eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks [without solemn reverence and heartfelt gratitude for the sacrifice of Christ], eats and drinks a judgment on himself if he does not [j]recognize the body [of Christ]. 30 That [careless and unworthy participation] is the reason why many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep [in death]. 31 But if we evaluated and judged ourselves honestly [recognizing our shortcomings and correcting our behavior], we would not be judged. 32 But when we [fall short and] are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined [by undergoing His correction] so that we will not be condemned [to eternal punishment] along with the world.

Is this what you're talking about cee?
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
48
Life doesn't define the person and will of God the Father... Jesus the Son does. Excellent video not only about healing but about all other things we need to know about God. It is about seeing Jesus.
That is truly sham if your belief is that shollow that you think this video is all we need to know about God, He is so much more then when is mentioned in this short video. The Father's compassion and mercy for sinners is so deep that we have a hard time compreheneding all there is to know about just that one attrubute of His. So if this video is your view of all there is to know about God, you really need to read your Bible more to see that there is so much more to know about the Lord and it is in His Word for us to know. Healing is nothing it is exactly the opposed to what was the core teaching of our Lord Jesus. Healing is very temperal and is the total opposite of the Lord's teaches, His teaching was focused on the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven, not being healed to stay on this earth longer. Matthew 16:24-26.

“Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone wants to become my follower, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.26 For what does it benefit a person if he gains the whole world but forfeits his life? Or what can a person give in exchange for his life?”

This is not looking for healing to stay on this earth longer. I understand this is speaking of spiritual life, at the same time it is not about seeking healing to live longer on the earth. But to find spiritual life and losing physical life, no healing to live longer.


Here is the Son not healing after the atonement, the guy preaching needs to read the Bible more then just the parts that seem to prove his doctrine.

II Corinthians 12:7-9 “And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.”
 
Last edited:

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
Yes, and honestly it’s a challenging Scripture for me, because it flies in the face of both ideas here. It shows that there is a sin that can result in death, which means it isn’t necessarily the Lord just saying no to our prayer, but that we are not listening to His voice of correction. And it also flies in the face of the idea God always wants us to be healed. It appears according to my current understanding of this Scripture that the Lord can correct us with sickness. Which is admittedly a hard idea for me to swallow, but He is Lord. And I would be dishonest if I didn’t include it in this discussion. I will seek Him more about this.
 
Last edited: