Healing through the Son

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BenFTW

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Oct 7, 2012
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Yes, and honestly it’s a challenging Scripture for me, because it flies in the face of both ideas here. It shows that there is a sin that can result in death, which means it isn’t necessarily the Lord just saying no to our prayer, but that we are not listening to His voice of correction. And it also flies in the face of the idea God always wants us to be healed. It appears according to my current understanding of this Scripture that the Lord can correct us with sickness. Which is admittedly a hard idea for me to swallow, but He is Lord. And I would be dishonest if I didn’t include it in this discussion. I will seek Him more about this.
Why are you assuming that the judgement and chastisement is in reference to being weak, sickly, and being asleep as opposed to the natural consequence of not discerning the Lord's body? Also, it says we should examine ourselves and if we would judge ourselves we would not be judged. So, is the judgement of ourselves the determination of whether or not we are discerning the Lord's body correctly?

In which case, is this not then God using the natural consequence of our actions as a lesson that leads us to repentance? A person touches the stove top, and it is likely they won't do it again. Lesson learned. Likewise, to not discern the body leads to natural consequences, and a lesson, hopefully, learned. Is not then the chastisement taking off the rail guards, as it were, and experiencing the fruit of your actions (not discerning the Lord's body)?
 

Cee

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May 14, 2010
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I thought of that too, but it says the Lord judges us so that we are not condemned with the world. Perhaps we could say His judgment is to take off His hand of protection. Which a lot of people already believe and teach. I’m open to discussion on this, but I don’t want to derail the thread either. If you’d like we can discuss in PMs.
 
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BenFTW

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Oct 7, 2012
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I thought of that too, but it says the Lord judges us so that we are not condemned with the world.
Condemned in what way? Being sick, weakly, and asleep. We must renew our minds to the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. You by the grace of God have learned there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus, so then the condemnation must be in regards to the consequences of not discerning the Lord's body (which has been established in scripture as being sick, weakly, and many sleep). Things the world are.

PS: Sorry, didn't see your addendum until after I posted (about the PMs).
 
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How do you translate "God is faithful" to "God, you owe me" silliness? If God said it, that shall He do. He is not a liar. It isn't a matter of God owing anyone, it is a matter of God being faithful to carry out that which He promises and wills to do. Our part is to believe.
Where did you say "God is faithful?"
It is not that you're setting God on a high pedestal, but rather there is a false sense of humility in your posts when you always say that others are all about "me" instead of God. It isn't their fault God has made promises that pertain to this life, and they wish to obtain them (that part, is their fault haha).

Seeking healing, wealth, and well-being are not bad endeavors, but they should accompany seeking first the Kingdom. Seeking the Lord's will in your life and walking in the good works He has prepared. God makes promises in these areas, and because He does, we may have faith. Without these promises we have a dwindling hope, but with them we are encouraged to persevere.
You're all about what you do and what you get. You seek, you believe, you keep track of the promises you want, (while ignoring the others), you have faith, and you hope. You you you. And in what? Healing, wealth, and well-being! (Considering those are what you look for, no idea what you perceive is his kingdom.)

Again, your eyes are always toward the dandelion.
 

BenFTW

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Oct 7, 2012
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Where did you say "God is faithful?"

You're all about what you do and what you get. You seek, you believe, you keep track of the promises you want, (while ignoring the others), you have faith, and you hope. You you you. And in what? Healing, wealth, and well-being! (Considering those are what you look for, no idea what you perceive is his kingdom.)

Again, your eyes are always toward the dandelion.
What can I say? God likes to water the dandelions. :)
 
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That isn't even the debate either. It is determining the will of God in relation to healing today. If people don't believe that it is God's will to heal them, how can they even begin to have faith to be healed? The reason faith becomes active is because it comprehends the will of God, it has something to take grasp of. If we are unsure of God's will on healing, we are left in doubt and then our faith is not steadfast but rather a hope. Hope is better than nothing, but it isn't faith, it relies on God's present mercy (and He is merciful).

We seek healing, but are asking for something that He has already freely given through the Son. It is yours! Believe. Yet also we must keep in mind that faith without works is dead. God makes promises but are we taking the leap out of the boat? Are we walking in the direction of these promises? Are we walking in accordance with His known will, seeking first the Kingdom? As much as teachers like to make doctrines of comfort, we must realize the importance of self-responsibility.
Everyone I know who has been healed, didn't believe they would be healed any more than the ones who weren't healed! Once again a "God owes me" mentality.
 

BenFTW

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Oct 7, 2012
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Everyone I know who has been healed, didn't believe they would be healed any more than the ones who weren't healed! Once again a "God owes me" mentality.
I'm sorry, but if I tell you that I am going to pay your rent next month, and I am not a liar, this isn't a matter of me owing you something, but being faithful to my word. Likewise, God has made promises, that He was under no obligation to make, and your interpretation that God owes us something is inherently wrong. It isn't that God owes us something, it is that He is giving us something (something He hastens to do, His promises).
 

wolfwint

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Feb 15, 2014
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Also., this walking in the Spirit gives believers a great confidence not in ourselves but in the working of the Holy Spirit doing what He does best. We can know when we seek out the truth in the Bible it puts the responsibility on the Holy Spirit to teach us these things. We don't have to worry He will lead us astray or lead us anywhere we would be ashamed to go.

The only reason I even dare to post so often on CC is because of the leading of the Holy Spirit.
To me the Holy Spirit lead to say the teaching you proclaim is wrong!
So who is right?
 

wolfwint

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Feb 15, 2014
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I do not believe salvation = physical healing. God heals whom He will for His purposes. Again, I can not speak for God or anyone else. I only know He healed me.
Praise the Lord for that! This is your expierience and other will also expierience that God heals them, no question. But this is an individual expierience. And the thread claimes this is not individual, but thats normal for all believers. And this is simple not True.
 

joaniemarie

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Jan 4, 2017
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Paul explained believers were getting sick and even dying because they didn’t discern the Body of Christ. That creates a connection to understanding the Body of Christ and being healthy. Just in this instance alone we see it’s possible to heap self-judgment on ourselves. And sickness and even death can be a result of it. That’s 100% Scripture.

Here's an excellent explanation of this.

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I remember as a 10 year old boy watching in terror as the communion plate came closer and closer. Why was I afraid? Because there was unresolved sin in my life – I had argued with my sister before church! I knew that those who took communion in an unworthy manner risked condemnation, even death, for the Bible told me so:[/FONT]

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1 Cor 11:26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
1 Cor 11:27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
1 Cor 11:28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup.
1 Cor 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.
1 Cor 11:30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
1 Cor 11:31 But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment.
1 Cor 11:32 When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.[/FONT]

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Thankfully, I was wrong.[/FONT]

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This passage above must be one of the most abused and misunderstood passages in the entire Bible. It is regularly used to deny communion to those who need and it is frightening to 10 year olds. It is, in fact, one of the most liberating scriptures in the Bible, yet many believers are condemned by it.

Doesn’t this seem odd to you? After all, this passage was written by the same apostle who said, “there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.” So what’s going on? Did Paul have a change of heart? Is he now saying that God will condemn us if we partake of communion in an unworthy manner?[/FONT]

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For if we would judge (diakrino) ourselves, we should not be judged (krino). But when we are judged (krino), we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned (katakrino) with the world. (KJV)[/FONT]

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Click on the Greek words italicized above and you will see that diakrino and krino mean to distinguish and decide, while katakrino means to give judgment against or condemn. In other words, the only time Paul refers to bad judgment (the condemning, punishing kind) in this passage, is when he is referring to those who condemn themselves through unbelief and not the Corinthian Christians. (What about when he says “we are judged by the Lord”? See this post.) Contrary to what you’ve heard, this is not about Christians examining themselves to see whether they’re worthy of communion. The Bible never says we damn ourselves by taking it in an unworthy manner.[/FONT]

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So what sort of judgments or decisions should we make when taking communion? And what does it mean to proclaim the Lord’s death?[/FONT]

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To answer these questions we need to look at the two deeds that are represented by the bread and the cup.[/FONT]

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The bread
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At the Last Supper Jesus handed out the bread, said it was his body, and told the disciples to eat it in remembrance of him (Lk 22:19). He didn’t say much else because no doubt they could all recall the fuss that happened the last time he said he was the bread of life:[/FONT]

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I am the bread of life… I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world… I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:48,51-54)[/FONT]

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As a result of these words many disciples turned away from following Jesus (Jn 6:66). To them, the idea of eating his flesh and drinking his blood was repelling. They did not grasp that Jesus was referring to his impending sacrifice – that he would give up his body in fulfillment of Isaiah 53:4-5 so that we might have life.[/FONT]

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What does it mean to eat the flesh of Jesus? It means to behold Jesus and all that He has done for you, both at the whipping post and on the cross.[/FONT]

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In communion the bread represents his body which was broken so that you might have life and health. This is good news for the sick, but it will have no effect in your life unless you believe it. In the passage above, Paul is exhorting us to judge whether sickness or health is from God. Sadly, many believers are confused about these things.

They think that God wants them sick so they can learn stuff. They don’t recognize (diakrino) that Jesus gave his body so that we might be healed. By failing to honor his body and blood they take communion in a less than worthy manner. It’s like saying, “Jesus was wounded for nothing,” or “by his wounds I have not been healed.”[/FONT]

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Sickness and death are part of the curse of sin (Gen 2:17). Jesus died to set us free from sin and all its effects, but we won’t be free unless we put our faith in his work. The Corinthians were suffering unnecessarily because they were not recognizing or discerning the Lord’s body. “This is why many among you are weak and sick and some have even died.” It wasn’t that God was judging them for getting drunk at communion.

They were suffering the effects of sin because they did not properly value what Christ had done on their behalf at Calvary. Because they were not judging themselves in light of the finished work of the cross (forgiven, accepted, blessed, healed), they were still experiencing the punishing effects of sin (rejection, sickness, condemnation). Because they weren’t attributing to Christ the full worth of his sacrifice, they were still suffering – in the language of King James – the effects of damnation.[/FONT]

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The cup
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At the Last Supper Jesus took the cup and announced a new covenant based on his blood:[/FONT]

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This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (Mt 26:28)[/FONT]

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In fear of eating and drinking in an unworthy manner, many Christians treat communion as a time of somber reflection. But proclaiming the Lord’s death should be an occasion of joy and celebration! Was there ever a better reason to party than this? Think about it: We who were once defiled by sin have been washed white as snow (Is 1:18). Our guilty consciences have been cleansed and our forgiveness has been eternally secured by the precious blood of Jesus (Heb 10:22, 1 Pet 1:19). This is the good news in a cup![/FONT]

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I will provide a line-by-line paraphrase of 1 Corinthians 11:26-32 in my next post, but Paul’s message to the Corinthians can be summed up like this: Judge yourself in light of Christ’s perfect sacrifice. Because of his body and blood, you are forgiven and healed. Learn to discriminate what is from God (e.g., healing) and what is part of sin’s curse (e.g., sickness). Understand that anything that is not God’s will in heaven (there is no sickness in heaven) is not his will here on earth.

When you learn to distinguish what is from God and what is not you are chastened or disciplined (paideauo, literally, trained up or instructed) of the Lord and escape the adverse effects of sin that the rest of the world suffers.[/FONT]

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Communion = good news for the sick and unworthy
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Are you battling sickness, condemnation and guilt? Then prepare a communion table in the presence of these your enemies and proclaim the Lord’s death! Don’t look at communion as merely a ritual; make it a declaration of faith.[/FONT]

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As you take the bread, behold the Lord’s body that was broken so yours could be whole. As you take the cup, discern the Lord’s blood that was shed for all your sins (Heb 10:12). Remind your enemies that they were thoroughly defeated at the cross. Because Jesus has triumphed we can reign in this life (Rms 5:17).[/FONT]

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There is no grief or sorrow he did not carry; there is no curse he did not redeem you from (Is 54:4). Judge yourself as God judges you – perfectly righteous, eternally forgiven, and completely whole![/FONT]
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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Here's an excellent explanation of this.



You are a boy? :confused:

I remember as a 10 year old boy watching in terror as the communion plate came closer and closer. Why was I afraid? Because there was unresolved sin in my life – I had argued with my sister before church! I knew that those who took communion in an unworthy manner risked condemnation, even death, for the Bible told me so:


 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
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Here's an excellent explanation of this.



You are a boy? :confused:

I remember as a 10 year old boy watching in terror as the communion plate came closer and closer. Why was I afraid? Because there was unresolved sin in my life – I had argued with my sister before church! I knew that those who took communion in an unworthy manner risked condemnation, even death, for the Bible told me so:


Check out the links in the post., Forgot to post on the bottom the guy who is the little 10yr old boy Paul Ellis .
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
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When you go beyond what the Bible actually says, that means the Holy Spirit is NOT leading you! God never twists his words, to say what it does not say! The Holy Spirit would never lead you astray.

Therefore, since you have ravaged the text with your own opinions and eisegesis, one can only assume that NO, the Holy Spirit did not lead you there. And blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, is the only sin which cannot be forgiven.

"I tell you the truth, people will be forgiven for all sins, even all the blasphemies they utter. 29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin” Mark 3:28-30

You are receiving extra-Biblical revelation from somewhere, and it cannot be the Holy Spirit, because he would never cause someone to read INTO the biblical text, something that is not there. You insult the Holy Spirit, with this horrible wickedness and pride!

And I see so clearly, this antinomianism, has taken you into deep error. As I said in my post, Romans 12:1-2 is all about the flesh (verse 1) and the mind (verse 2). But you have made it about yourself, and revelations that are not from God. You are in a very, very scary state. I pray you will repent of this sin against God.
I posted this already and used the body of the letter to say the same thing to you Angela. It's not my fault you experienced hurt feelings in your Christian life. Or that your friends went through hard times concerning faith and living. Quit blaming people who have nothing whatsoever to do with your past and trying to squeeze retribution from each of us. Life doesn't work that way Angela.

It's ridiculous and immature to engage in the blame game especially at this age of our lives. Many of the people who hurt us or hurt with us have long since passed away or moved on in their lives and they each had their own issues to deal with before the Lord. Both in your life and in mine. All of us have some story in life to tell but we don't have the right to blame people here.

First let me say this again to you and anyone else who reads this., I never said people are not healed because they don't have enough faith. Nope.., never said it and I keep "clarifying" it over and over but to no avail.

You have not read my posts. You read into my posts. New extra Biblical revelations? Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? I should hope when we each read the Bible the Holy Spirit reveals things to us personally that we need to know. Prayers we pray that are personal and answered are extra Biblical?

I seek to engage in conversation with people here all the time and only by pass certain people when they insult and misrepresent me personally coming up with all kinds of suppositions along with personal suspicions and guesses and conspiracy theories.
Wacky ones at that.

All because I don't believe the same as you do Angela... it must mean I'm not a Christian, or I'm a wolf., a heretic .,or evil., or passive aggressive.. or prosperity gospel person., hyper this and hyper that., or antinomianism-ist LOL what's next on this wacky long list of yours? My sharing with you is always in hopes of coming to some Christian commonalities but only seems to keep giving place to your continued childish blame games and name calling.


Grow up Angela and realize the whole world doesn't agree with you on all points..., or read the Bible the same way you do. It's time to GROW UP and quit your hissyfitting responses when someone like me posts here.

If you don't like my posts don't read them Angela. If your sensibilities are that 'tender' and that 'delicate' that you can't handle it when another Christian woman disagrees with you ...than something is wrong with you Angela and other grown up Christians like you.

Grown ups learn to deal with other people in their lives and in the world they live in. (and on Christian chat sites) Not everyone will agree with us on all aspects of life even when we have learned differently about major topics that impact our very daily lives. Even when our life's experiences have made us who we are today... not everyone will see life the way we do. That's a fact. Most often people really don't care what our experiences are Angela. They were not there.

It's true...not everyone is going to agree with us... really.., seriously... it's a fact of life... not all will agree or even appreciate our experiences or opinions .. it's a fact in the adult responsibility world unless we are immature self important spoiled brats who no one ever dared disagree with before.


But sad to say many here are big old babies who must demean and 'shut down' anyone who doesn't make them feel good by agreeing with them and appreciating their experiences in life.

Reminds me of the kids on America's liberal colleges who need their "safe spaces" with stuffed animals and hot chocolate and some comfort pets. I say to you and to others who can't stand to hear other Christians talk about and share their faith... Grow up. Wake up and smell the coffee!


 

joaniemarie

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Jan 4, 2017
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Angela., I can appreciate your ideas on the texts and greek swirly do dads it's all very nice. But I've learned there is more to the text than meets the eye. When I read the Bible it's not seen the same way you do. For all you just wrote that is not how I read the chapters and verses. When I'm asking the Holy Spirit to lead me to where I need to be in understanding the application it's not done the way you do it Angela.


In Romans 12:2 [SUP]2 [/SUP]Do not be conformed to this world (this age), [fashioned after and adapted to its external, superficial customs], but be transformed (changed) by the [entire] renewal of your mind [by its new ideals and its new attitude], so that you may prove [for yourselves] what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God, even the thing which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His sight for you].

This has everything to do with how to see the Bible and the world for that matter and our relation to them. We have to see it by the new creation we are made In Christ. Not according to our old manner of living and seeing. We daily have to be transformed by the renewing of our minds so we ARE ABLE TO PROVE what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
These verses are 100% applicable to the subject at hand here. I don't see how you miss it Angela.



The Holy Spirit often shows me more than what is in the exact text about healing or about the the fruits of the Spirit or any subject for that matter. I'll read something in the morning and while reading something totally different in the evening., He will bring to my mind the Bible reading from the morning or even from the week before. He does this when we allow Him to teach us and lead us into the truth. His truth for us as we are learning about Jesus. Not our truth from our limited resources.

He always brings to the forefront of what I'm reading lovely principles about JESUS and His love and grace and how that is the way to interpret a text for my personal study.

Looking into the Word of God these days my goal is to SEE JESUS. And the Holy Spirit has taught me that amazing truth because it was not taught to me in the many years of being a Christian before learning to let the Holy Spirit teach me.

AND how amazing is this TRUTH that we all have Him and when we need to know what to do and how to interpret the Bible each time we read it. It's not always by formal teaching or someone else needing to teach us. Some things we must learn one on One when we are alone before the Word with the Spirit ministering to our spirit.

1 John 2:27
[SUP]27 [/SUP]But as for you, the anointing (the sacred appointment, the unction) which you received from Him abides [[SUP][a][/SUP]permanently] in you; [so] then you have no need that anyone should instruct you. But just as His anointing teaches you concerning everything and is true and is no falsehood, so you must abide in (live in, never depart from) Him [being [SUP][b][/SUP]rooted in Him, knit to Him], just as [His anointing] has taught you [to do].


There comes a time when we need to allow the Holy Spirit free reign to show us the applications to our inner man as we walk out our faith. The goal has to always be to see Jesus and interpret each verse getting a better focus on Jesus and then that shows us who we are.

Keeping this IN context
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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The only reason I even dare to post so often on CC is because of the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Joan, You may use such an argument if you want - that is your right -
but expect others to spew back that the Spirit is also leading them to post the opposite stuff - they have that right also -

And when you have two sides claiming the Spirit is leading them, it can get downright ugly . . .

I suggest we stick to a discussion of what the Scriptures say rather than appealing to "the Spirit".
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Here is a repost of something I wrote on whether healing is in the atonement.

What is found in Isaiah 53, and all through Isaiah, is that a Messiah would come, who would heal the people of their sin sickness. And that is the atonement. Jesus death on the cross paid for our sins. It's called redemption, or propitiation, or other words.

Atonement = payment for sins (in our place)

Isaiah also contains prophecies that would identify Jesus when he appeared on earth. He was a suffering servant, in Isa. 53:1-3. He was smitten, beaten, etc. It also prophecies he would be hung on a cross, and that Jesus would heal the people who lived at the same time as him. That is cross referenced in Matt 8:16-17, which clearly says that Jesus healed, so that, Isaiah would be fulfilled.

It no where, in any place says that because Jesus healed and fulfilled the prophecy in Isa. 53, that in the 21st century, that EVERYONE who had enough faith would be healed. And if you weren't healed, it was because you didn't have enough faith. It no where says, everyone would be healed, all the time. It says no where healing is contained in the atonement. I have never said healing was in the atonement, because it is NEVER in the text, New or Old Testament!

It also clearly says, in Isaiah 1 that Israel was sick in its whole head, from the sole of the foot to the head, with bruises and sores and raw wounds. This is a metaphor for the sin sickness of Israel. It is also part of the metaphor in Isa. 53:4-5 is the prophecy, that is fulfilled in Matt 8:17.

The big issue, as I review this in various translations and in Greek, is that it really difficult to get a read on either Isa. 53:4 or Matt. 8:17, because there is such variation in the various translations, because the words have more than one definition, and even the same translations use different words for the prophecies in the OT and the fulfillment in the NT.

For instance, the word ἀσθενείας can be translated as "illness or weakness." Bauer (BDAG) notes three uses of the word, which is a feminine noun.

1. state of debilitating illness, sickness, disease. Matt 8:17
2. incapacity for something or experience of limitation, weakness eg. 1 Cor. 15:43, Hebrews 5:2
3. lack of confidence of feeling of inadequacy, weakness. Of Pauls' self-effacement, timidity 1 Cor. 2:3\

However, there is enough wiggle room, that if a translator wanted to downplay how Jesus healed, the word, could be used in the sense of lack of confidence. This shows how easy it can be for previous theology to influence where the translation is going. Just a warning to anyone who digs for a translation they like, to prove or disprove a point.

So, comparing this fulfillment of prophecy, with the actual prophecy in Isa. 53:4, I find, that the exact words are not repeated even in the same versions. And not one of these versions match each other, let alone themselves.

"But he lifted up our illnesses,
he carried our pain;
even though we thought he was being punished,
attacked by God, and afflicted for something he had done." Isa. 53:4 NET

" When it was evening, many demon-possessed people were brought to him. He drove out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick. In this way what was spoken by Isaiah the prophet was fulfilled:
"He took our weaknesses and carried our diseases." Matt 8:16-17 NET




"Yet He Himself bore our sicknesses,
and He carried our pains;
but we in turn regarded Him stricken,
struck down by God, and afflicted." Isa. 53:4 HCSB

"When evening came, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. He drove out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick,so that what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:
He Himself took our weaknesses
and carried our diseases." Matt 8:16-17 HCSB



"When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." Matt 8:16-17 KJV

" Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted." Isa. 53:4 KJV

"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted." Isa. 53:4 ESV

"This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” Matt 8:17 ESV

"Ὀψίας δὲ γενομένης προσήνεγκαν αὐτῷ δαιμονιζομένους πολλούς· καὶ ἐξέβαλεν τὰ πνεύματα λόγῳ, καὶ πάντας τοὺς κακῶς ἔχοντας ἐθεράπευσεν· 17 ὅπως πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Ἠσαΐου τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος· Αὐτὸς τὰς ἀσθενείας ἡμῶν ἔλαβεν καὶ τὰς νόσους ἐβάστασεν." Matt 8:16-17 Greek.

Now, this is VERY important! None of the versions I looked at, does the NT fulfillment perfectly mirror the OT prophecy. Here is a look at what the LXX says.

"Isaiah 53:4 – This one bears our sins and suffers pain for us, and we accounted him to be in trouble and calamity and ill-treatment." Isa. 53:4 LXX in translation.

"ἀλλὰ τὸ εἶδος αὐτοῦ ἄτιμον ἐκλεῖπον παρὰ πάντας ἀνθρώπους ἄνθρωπος ἐν πληγῇ ὢν καὶ εἰδὼς φέρειν μαλακίαν ὅτι ἀπέστραπται τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ ἠτιμάσθη καὶ οὐκ ἐλογίσθη" Isa. 53:3 (4 in our Bibles!)

The key word "μαλακίαν" or malakian a feminine noun, which in Greek means:
gloss - softness, weakness, weakliness, ailment
1. condition of bodily weakness, debility, weakness, sickness (Matt 4:23, 9:3; 10:1)
2. condition of inner weakness, faint hearted, dependency, lack of energy which is not found in the NT.

Do we translate it as "sickness" or as "inner weakness?"

And, please note the same words do not even appear in Greek in the prophecy in Isa. 53:4 and Matt 8:16-17, although in looking at a cross section of translations, they are universal in their translation of Kakos as "sickness." See below. In fact, the word Kakos, does NOT readily translate as "sickness" although most versions translate it that way, and certainly Jesus did heal their diseases, νόσους in the prophecy. (Physical malady, disease, illness!)

Well, I do believe the both Isaiah and his audience, and later the translation committee for the LXX knew what they were talking about. But, do we? It is hard, 2600 some years later to reach back in the past, and decide exactly what Isaiah was talking about. And, this whole discussion reflects the fact, that in our society, we constantly want to pin down words with mathematical precision, which did not exist in those days. No computers, just valiant efforts to retain the original words, by scribes, which wasn't always successful. So, the next time some of you go searching for a translation that reflects YOUR personal theology, remember the ancient people would not even begin to understand anything to do with complete purity, nor that there wasn't a LOT of leeway on the meanings of word.

My take home?

Jesus died on the cross for our sins. That is clearly the atonement, and what the book of Isaiah prophecies. It is a book written both to warn the Israelites an Judaeans that they needed to repent and return to the Lord.

Then, it is a book on who that coming Lord is! Jesus is the Suffering servant, who suffered for our sins, and died on the cross for our salvation. Isa. 53:4 is a clear prophecy of Jesus earthly ministry. It says that Jesus will heal their diseases,

In Order to FULFILL what was spoke by the prophet Isaiah - that being, he would heal the illnesses and diseases of the people of the first century. Even to ALL their Kakos! πάντας τοὺς κακῶς Now, kakos is another word with many definitions.

1 Pertaining to sing socially or morally reprehensible,bad, evil.
a. of human characteristics, actions, emotions,plans - bad
2. Pertaining to being harmful or injurious - evil, injurious, dangerous, pernicious
3. Certain passages far between 1 & 2, harm caused by evil.

Jesus did not die on the cross for our healing! There simply is NO way that this prophecy means, every believer is healed for all time, if they just have enough faith. Or until it is manifested.

Yes, during his earthly ministry Jesus fulfilled this prophecy, WHILE HE WAS ALIVE! So, Jesus does heal. And I believe he does heal today, I have never said differently. But, healing on demand, naming and claiming it, or healing as part of the atonement is simply not found in these passages, nor in 1 Peter 2:24, which I don't have time to get into today.
Angela, Excellent series of posts: Biblical, clear, loving, and yet firm and honest.
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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We weren’t healed of sin. We died to sin. There was no healing of it, He started over. We were reborn in righteousness. Nowhere in Scripture does it teach we were healed from sin...
Read Isaiah 53 again. What else does this means: AND WITH HIS STRIPES WE ARE HEALED? Are you denying that this is applicable to the soul? It is all about the healing of the soul when dealing with sins. As seen below Christ made His soul an offering for sins, not for anything else.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
1 0Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Souls are corrupted and defiled by sins. And if the sins are heinous and terrible, then souls are ravaged by sins and guilt. However, the blood of Christ not only washes the soul from sin and guilt, but it heals the soul so that the there is peace with God and the peace of God enters that soul. "The chastisement of our peace" means that in order for the soul to have peace with God, Christ had to bear the punishment for our sins and guilt. When God declares a guilty sinner as righteous and justified, there is joy not only in Heaven but within that soul. Yes, we are made righteous in Christ that that is exactly what heals the sinners soul.
 
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stonesoffire

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Nov 24, 2013
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Yes, and honestly it’s a challenging Scripture for me, because it flies in the face of both ideas here. It shows that there is a sin that can result in death, which means it isn’t necessarily the Lord just saying no to our prayer, but that we are not listening to His voice of correction. And it also flies in the face of the idea God always wants us to be healed. It appears according to my current understanding of this Scripture that the Lord can correct us with sickness. Which is admittedly a hard idea for me to swallow, but He is Lord. And I would be dishonest if I didn’t include it in this discussion. I will seek Him more about this.
I don't see this as a sin, but as an unrenewed mind Cee. And not in a punishing kind of way, but failure to obtain because of unbelief. Not refusing to believe, though it could be this for a few, but lack of understanding what these scriptures mean.

I've heard this many times...we must examine our hearts to see if there is any sin...and not take part if so.

This is error. We take communion in our need of all that Jesus has obtained for us through His death...but even moreso with His life. We are lifed by His body and blood. Here is where the scripture comes into play, if that same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead...He will quicken our mortal body. We can be lifed now, and not have to wait for immortality.

So we die from diseases because of lack of teaching truth. Is what I see in failure to discern His body through our communion with Him.

We will however, step over into glory, whether ill or not at some point...unless we are taken. :)
 

stonesoffire

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Nov 24, 2013
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Does Ephesians 6:10 to 20 have anything to do with illness?