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Thread: Healing through the Son

  1. #41
    Senior Member joaniemarie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Healing through the Son

    Quote Originally Posted by Didymous View Post
    Joanie Marie, I watched the video. So what was your purpose in putting it here?

    What I appreciated most about this message is God is not defined by our limited human experiences but He is defined and seen today by His Son Jesus. That is the message for all things pertaining to God the Father. Look to Jesus. The reason this and other threads keep coming up is because sickness is a part of being human. We each experience the weakness of our flesh and God's word tells us how to master it as we live our lives daily here on planet earth in these earth suits.

    For all the rotten and good experiences in life., they cannot and should never go before the truth of Jesus as He is revealed to us in the Bible and through the Holy Spirit. If you listen to the video that message is clear. If you believe in healing for all or not., the message is clear. All answers are found in Jesus. Answers for eternal life as well as daily living are found in Jesus.

    2 Peter 1:3 3 For His divine power has bestowed upon us all things that [are requisite and suited] to life and godliness, through the [[a]full, personal] knowledge of Him Who called us by and to His own glory and excellence (virtue).

    Do we dare to come out from our own limited understanding and enter into His unending truth for our lives? That's the question each person must ask for themselves and no one can ask it for us.
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    Senior Member Didymous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Healing through the Son

    I'm still unclear as to what exactly you're trying to convey. Are you trying to say that every time we pray for someone they'll be healed-as long as we don't have any unbelief?
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    Senior Member joaniemarie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Healing through the Son

    Quote Originally Posted by Didymous View Post
    I'm still unclear as to what exactly you're trying to convey. Are you trying to say that every time we pray for someone they'll be healed-as long as we don't have any unbelief?
    Nope. What I appreciated most about this message is God is not defined by our limited human experiences but He is defined and seen today by His Son Jesus. That is the message for all things pertaining to God the Father. Look to Jesus. The reason this and other threads keep coming up is because sickness is a part of being human. We each experience the weakness of our flesh and God's word tells us how to master it as we live our lives daily here on planet earth in these earth suits.

    For all the rotten and good experiences in life., they cannot and should never go before the truth of Jesus as He is revealed to us in the Bible and through the Holy Spirit. If you listen to the video that message is clear. If you believe in healing for all or not., the message is clear. All answers are found in Jesus. Answers for eternal life as well as daily living are found in Jesus.

    2 Peter 1:3 3 For His divine power has bestowed upon us all things that [are requisite and suited] to life and godliness, through the [[a]full, personal] knowledge of Him Who called us by and to His own glory and excellence (virtue).
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  4. #44
    Senior Member joaniemarie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Healing through the Son

    Jesus is the answer for all the questions that make no sense that we long to find the answers for. The videos are very clear to me as the pastor talks about not believing our flesh but instead looking beyond the flesh and seeing the truth in the Holy Spirit and the promises of God even when they totally contradict what we see through our physical senses.

    I have experienced this same thing with my finances and my jobs. Because of Jesus being my righteousness., I have access to the promises. Not because of anything I've done., but because of Jesus. If we ask anything in His name.... I take it literally and it's now what I'm called to see as a new creation in Christ.

    This is wonderful news to me as a Christian who was never taught this about Jesus and His righteousness given to us. Because of Jesus we are healed. Now we walk it out daily .... for life and Godliness. For all things pertaining to our lives.
    Last edited by joaniemarie; April 1st, 2018 at 02:53 AM.
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  5. #45
    Senior Member BenFTW's Avatar
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    Default Re: Healing through the Son

    Quote Originally Posted by Blain View Post
    Oh wow I had no idea you went through all of that that is horrible And ya I have had experiences with such people especially at the beginning of my faith what I am worried about though is the damage it will do to others. Don't get me wrong I think having the kind of faith to ask for something and believe you will receive it and also receiving it like how Joanie says she does is great and fantastic I admire that kind of iron faith but the danger this man speaks of is what makes me upset I can't help but get protective about the kind of damage such teachings can do to others. It's one thing to have that kind of faith and receive it but another entirely to say that it will happen 100% and to not say directly but to imply that it was the believers fault that they didn't receive it.

    there have been some who have come here and came to me for encouragement and spoke about loved ones or even themselves that needed healing really badly but no matter how much they ask or believe it never happened and some have told me how they were told that they just didn't have enough faith or that it was their sins or something about them in general because it should have happened and were even shown all the verse of scripture that (prove) we will always receive healing. These poor people were so damaged because of it and I was infuriated inside because of what these false teachers did to them
    I have to ask Blain. Is it ever the believer's fault? Now, I understand that it may not be our place to determine that specifically for another and that is between them and the Lord, but in general, does something not occur due to our disbelief?

    If we look to scripture we have different examples of such, do we not? In Jesus' own home town, not many were healed. The disciples when attempting to cast out a demon could not because of their unbelief, as Jesus said (in Matthew 17:20). We see it time and again, where the reality is that some people don't believe and are called to do so. The result dependent upon their belief.

    While I agree that we shouldn't go around blaming the sick, we cannot in good conscience deny God's word on the matter either. God calls us to believe, to have faith. Think about what Jesus said to those that were healed, "Your faith has made thee well", right? To deny the importance of self-responsibility in the equation of healing, not only would be unbiblical it would be wrong to mislead people as to its significance. We, those seeking healing, must take an honest evaluation of our belief(s) and determine if we are in fact seeking healing or are ready to move on ("because Jesus has my new body waiting for me").

    People will often profess faith for healing, but given an opportunity to speak on the matter it is revealed that while their faith is sufficient for healing it is not truly what they seek and believe for. Rather it isn't something they are pursuing but have put it in the hands of God (His will), and some do not even seek it in this life (though it would be nice they say) but are looking forward to their glorified body. This is a matter of inactive faith, being comfortable, plateauing, being complacent, and the like. Notice I said some, easy now.

    Not all situations are the same. God is sovereign. Someone may have the faith to walk on water, but God hasn't called them to step out of the boat. Likewise, some may have the faith to be healed, but life ever after is their destination and it is their time. God bringing them home.

    We shouldn't be caught up in the blame game, and should rather encourage one another. Console the trodden down, exhort, and bring joy. Share testimonies of God's deliverance and healing. Why? For it will spark within them that pursuant faith, that attains onto the glory of God. They need something, someone, to believe in, do they not? The Lord, who sees their every tear and into the depths of their heart.

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    Senior Member joaniemarie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Healing through the Son

    1. Surely He has borne our griefs (sicknesses, weaknesses, and distresses) and carried our sorrows and pains [of punishment], yet we [ignorantly] considered Him stricken, smitten, and afflicted by God [as if with leprosy]. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our guilt and iniquities; the chastisement [needful to obtain] peace and well-being for us was upon Him, and with the stripes [that wounded] Him we are healed and made whole.
      - Isaiah 53:4–5 (AMP)
    2. But He was pierced for our rebellion, crushed for our sins. He was beaten so we could be whole. He was whipped so we could be healed.
      - Isaiah 53:5 (NLT)
    3. …who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.
      - 1 Peter 2:24
    4. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
      - Romans 8:11
    5. He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
      - Romans 8:32
    6. Suddenly, a man with leprosy approached Him and knelt before Him. “Lord,” the man said, “if You are willing, You can heal me and make me clean.” Jesus reached out and touched him. “I am willing,” He said. “Be healed!” And instantly the leprosy disappeared.
      - Matthew 8:2–3 (NLT)
    7. “Lord, help!” they cried in their trouble, and He saved them from their distress. He sent out His word and healed them, snatching them from the door of death.
      - Psalm 107:19–20 (NLT)
    8. For He will rescue you from every trap and protect you from deadly disease.
      - Psalm 91:3 (NLT)
    9. He also brought them out with silver and gold, and there was none feeble among His tribes.
      - Psalm 105:37
    10. Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers.
      - 3 John 1:2 (NASB)
    11. “The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have [it] more abundantly.”
      - John 10:10
    12. Do not be afraid of the terrors of the night, nor the arrow that flies in the day. Do not dread the disease that stalks in darkness, nor the disaster that strikes at midday. Though a thousand fall at your side, though ten thousand are dying around you, these evils will not touch you.
      - Psalm 91:5–7 (NLT)
    13. With long life I will satisfy him, and show him My salvation.
      - Psalm 91:16
    14. “…I am the Lord who heals you.”
      - Exodus 15:26
    15. “I will give you back your health and heal your wounds,” says the Lord.
      - Jeremiah 30:17 (NLT)
    16. Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all His benefits: Who forgives all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases.
      - Psalm 103:2–3
    17. My son, give attention to my words; incline your ear to my sayings. Do not let them depart from your eyes; keep them in the midst of your heart; for they [are] life to those who find them, and health to all their flesh.
      - Proverbs 4:20-22

    EVERYONE WHO CAME TO JESUS WAS HEALED

    1. And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people.
      - Matthew 4:23
    2. News about Him spread as far as Syria, and people soon began bringing to Him all who were sick. And whatever their sickness or disease, or if they were demon-possessed or epileptic or paralyzed—He healed them all.
      - Matthew 4:24 (NLT)
    3. When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.” Jesus said to him, “I will go and heal him.”
      - Matthew 8: 5–7 (NIV)
    4. When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: “He Himself took our infirmities and bore [our] sicknesses.”
      - Matthew 8:16–17
    5. …Then Jesus turned to the paralyzed man and said, “Stand up, pick up your mat, and go home!” And the man jumped up and went home!
      - Matthew 9:6–7 (NLT)
    6. Then great multitudes came to Him, having with them [the] lame, blind, mute, maimed, and many others; and they laid them down at Jesus’ feet, and He healed them.
      - Matthew 15:30
    7. Jesus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed Him.
      - Matthew 20:34 (NIV)
    8. And He entered the synagogue again, and a man was there who had a withered hand. So they watched Him closely, whether He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him. And He said to the man who had the withered hand, “Step forward.” Then He said to them, “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they kept silent. And when He had looked around at them with anger, being grieved by the hardness of their hearts, He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched [it] out, and his hand was restored as whole as the other.
      - Mark 3:1–5
    9. A woman in the crowd had suffered for twelve years with constant bleeding. She had suffered a great deal from many doctors, and over the years she had spent everything she had to pay them, but she had gotten no better. In fact, she had gotten worse. She had heard about Jesus, so she came up behind Him through the crowd and touched His robe. For she thought to herself, “If I can just touch His robe, I will be healed.” Immediately the bleeding stopped, and she could feel in her body that she had been healed of her terrible condition.
      - Mark 5:25–29 (NLT)
    10. Jesus stopped and said, “Call him.” So they called to the blind man, “Cheer up! On your feet! He’s calling you.” Throwing his cloak aside, he jumped to his feet and came to Jesus. “What do you want Me to do for you?” Jesus asked him. The blind man said, “Rabbi, I want to see.” “Go,” said Jesus, “your faith has healed you.” Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.
      - Mark 10:49–52 (NIV)
    11. When the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various diseases brought them to Him; and He laid His hands on every one of them and healed them.
      - Luke 4:40
    12. And the whole multitude sought to touch Him, for power went out from Him and healed [them] all.
      - Luke 6:19
    13. A funeral procession was coming out as He approached the village gate. The young man who had died was a widow’s only son, and a large crowd from the village was with her. When the Lord saw her, His heart overflowed with compassion. “Don’t cry!” He said. Then He walked over to the coffin and touched it, and the bearers stopped. “Young man,” He said, “I tell you, get up.” Then the dead boy sat up and began to talk! And Jesus gave him back to his mother.
      - Luke 7:12–15 (NLT)
    14. And a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all. When Jesus saw her, He called her forward and said to her, “Woman, you are set free from your infirmity.” Then He put His hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God.
      - Luke 13:11–13 (NIV)
    15. One of the men lying there had been sick for thirty-eight years. When Jesus saw him and knew he had been ill for a long time, He asked him, “Would you like to get well?” “I can’t, sir,” the sick man said, “for I have no one to put me into the pool when the water bubbles up. Someone else always gets there ahead of me.” Jesus told him, “Stand up, pick up your mat, and walk!” Instantly, the man was healed! He rolled up his sleeping mat and began walking!
      - John 5:5–9 (NLT)
    16. “…how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.”
      - Acts 10:38
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    Senior Member Didymous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Healing through the Son

    What I find interesting about Matthew 17:20 is that in the very next verse, Jesus added prayer and fasting to drive out such spirits.
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    Senior Member BenFTW's Avatar
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    Default Re: Healing through the Son

    Quote Originally Posted by Didymous View Post
    What I find interesting about Matthew 17:20 is that in the very next verse, Jesus added prayer and fasting to drive out such spirits.
    I've heard it said that "this kind" is in reference to the disciple's unbelief. That their unbelief comes out through prayer and fasting (spending time with the Lord). It isn't that the demon was so powerful that it required prayer and fasting to address, because the name of Jesus is fully sufficient. Jesus has the authority, they must obey. Jesus is Lord.
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    Senior Member Didymous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Healing through the Son

    Yes, everyone who came to Him was healed, but after He left, we have the example of Paul in 2Corinthians 12:7-9.
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    Senior Member joaniemarie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Healing through the Son

    Quote Originally Posted by Didymous View Post
    What I find interesting about Matthew 17:20 is that in the very next verse, Jesus added prayer and fasting to drive out such spirits.
    Yes, Jesus was the first of many brethren. I find it very interesting too. Jesus put aside His power and relied on the power of the Holy Spirit and calls us to do the same.

    One of the many things the Pastor in the video said was we Christians need to 'think on these things'... Fasting and prayer is about denying our flesh to be the leader of our lives and thinking of what the Bible says and what the Holy Spirit says to our new man created in Christ. Personally I've not been much of a faster but I'm learning about what it means to do in order to think on these things of the Spirit and not the flesh. Keeping the Word of God before us and not wasting our minds on TV or those things that defeat our minds from even seeking after Jesus.

    Human beings look for escapes from hard things. Why is it hard for most people (Christians) to be disciplined? Because many of us are carnal.

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    Senior Member Didymous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Healing through the Son

    You may be correct, BenFTW, but Jesus had fasted in the wilderness, so He had already done what might've been referring to driving out such spirits: Not that I believe He needed to, but because He always did what was necessary to fulfill all righteousness. he always set the perfect example.
    Last edited by Didymous; April 1st, 2018 at 03:08 AM.

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    Default Re: Healing through the Son

    Joaniemarie, you really like taking a beating, don't you? A tad sadistic, haha. One must acknowledge your persistence and consistency in what you share, against all odds, and even to your own shame (given personal attacks/ad hominem), but you persist. Good for you. Stay strong, keep the faith.
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    Senior Member Didymous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Healing through the Son

    Quote Originally Posted by joaniemarie View Post
    Yes, Jesus was the first of many brethren. I find it very interesting too. Jesus put aside His power and relied on the power of the Holy Spirit and calls us to do the same.

    One of the many things the Pastor in the video said was we Christians need to 'think on these things'... Fasting and prayer is about denying our flesh to be the leader of our lives and thinking of what the Bible says and what the Holy Spirit says to our new man created in Christ. Personally I've not been much of a faster but I'm learning about what it means to do in order to think on these things of the Spirit and not the flesh. Keeping the Word of God before us and not wasting our minds on TV or those things that defeat our minds from even seeking after Jesus.

    Human beings look for escapes from hard things. Why is it hard for most people (Christians) to be disciplined? Because many of us are carnal.
    We're all in a body of flesh, so we'll always have that struggle between flesh and spirit-until we don't.
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    Senior Member joaniemarie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Healing through the Son

    Quote Originally Posted by BenFTW View Post
    Joaniemarie, you really like taking a beating, don't you? A tad sadistic, haha. One must acknowledge your persistence and consistency in what you share, against all odds, and even to your own shame (given personal attacks/ad hominem), but you persist. Good for you. Stay strong, keep the faith.

    Not at all Ben. I'm going through this myself and find it a great opportunity to share with others while asking and seeking the same answers for myself. When you are finding answers you have been long searching for and asking about yourself, it's most gratifying to share and talk about it with others.
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    Senior Member joaniemarie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Healing through the Son

    Quote Originally Posted by Didymous View Post
    We're all in a body of flesh, so we'll always have that struggle between flesh and spirit-until we don't.
    Yes., I already posted that above. We will always have to decide if we will walk in the flesh or in the spirit. When we were not believers with a new heart., we didn't have any choice how to walk. We walked according to who we were... sinners. Now we are sons. His seed remains in us.
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    Default Re: Healing through the Son

    Quote Originally Posted by joaniemarie View Post
    Not at all Ben. I'm going through this myself and find it a great opportunity to share with others while asking and seeking the same answers for myself. When you are finding answers you have been long searching for and asking about yourself, it's most gratifying to share and talk about it with others.
    Well, you definitely aren't alone. Some are just more vocal than others, and thanks for sharing. You've found liberty, and cannot help but share it with others. Its ironic that what you believe to have set you free, others are declaring as chains and oppressive.
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    Default Re: Healing through the Son

    Quote Originally Posted by joaniemarie View Post
    EVERYONE WHO CAME TO JESUS WAS HEALED
    That is absolutely not true!
    Mark 5:24And a great crowd followed him and thronged about him. 25And there was a woman who had had a discharge of blood for twelve years, 26and who had suffered much under many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was no better but rather grew worse. 27She had heard the reports about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his garment. 28For she said, “If I touch even his garments, I will be made well.” 29And immediately the flow of blood dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease. 30And Jesus, perceiving in himself that power had gone out from him, immediately turned about in the crowd and said, “Who touched my garments?”31And his disciples said to him, “You see the crowd pressing around you, and yet you say, ‘Who touched me?’” 32And he looked around to see who had done it. 33But the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came in fear and trembling and fell down before him and told him the whole truth. 34And he said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease.”

    Those in the crowd didn't get healed.
    I don't know why I bother, she's not going to listen anyway.


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    Senior Member Angela53510's Avatar
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    Default Re: Healing through the Son

    Quote Originally Posted by joaniemarie View Post
    What I appreciated most about this message is God is not defined by our limited human experiences but He is defined and seen today by His Son Jesus. That is the message for all things pertaining to God the Father. Look to Jesus. The reason this and other threads keep coming up is because sickness is a part of being human. We each experience the weakness of our flesh and God's word tells us how to master it as we live our lives daily here on planet earth in these earth suits.

    Do we dare to come out from our own limited understanding and enter into His unending truth for our lives? That's the question each person must ask for themselves and no one can ask it for us. Those of you who already posted your beliefs on the subject of the OP you are entitled to your own beliefs and opinions.
    Quote Originally Posted by joaniemarie View Post

    Christians who are walking in the flesh can't help but try to insult and demean other Christians about whether God is a good Father that wants to heal His children. Jesus said that healing is the children's bread." I believe that because the Bible says it. Not because I've always experienced it in my 59yrs on earth.


    If you don't agree with people you come in contact with in the Christian community.. is throwing up your insults and anger on them the best way to go? No., I don't believe we Christians even have that option. Yet in the flesh., some Christians can and will take that option until they learn better.
    Quote Originally Posted by joaniemarie View Post

    For instance., there are 2 different kinds of believers. And we are all capable of being both kinds. The kind that walk after the flesh or the kind that walk after the Spirit. None of us are free of this daily struggle until we die and go to heaven.
    First, our understanding of God will never be perfect. But, we have everything we need to follow God in the Bible, led by the Holy Spirit.

    In the posts above, here is where you are exegetically wrong. First, over and over, in every post you make, you have this dichotomy between, those who "walk in the flesh" and those, (like you, I assume) who walk in the Spirit. This is totally unscriptural. We receive the Holy Spirit when we are saved. We never lose him. There are struggles, but the Holy Spirit is always there, leading us, changing and transforming us.

    "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whomever he wishes." John 5:21

    "And he died for all so that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised. 16 So then from now on we acknowledge no one from an outward human point of view. Even though we have known Christ from such a human point of view, now we do not know him in that way any longer. 17 So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away—look, what is new has come! 18 And all these things are from God who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and who has given us the ministry of reconciliation. 19 In other words, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting people’s trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation." 2 Cor. 5:15-19

    "But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 even though we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you are saved!— 6 and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 to demonstrate in the coming ages the surpassing wealth of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them." Eph. 2:5-10

    "By his sovereign plan he gave us birth through the message of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of all he created." James 1:18


    All of these verses, and many more talk about the miracle of salvation. Jesus has raised us to new life, in him, and through his death on the cross. What I fail to find is a gospel that says we have 2 kinds of believers, as you claim.

    But even more, we receive the Holy Spirit from the moment we are saved. To be walking in the "flesh" means to be walking without the Holy Spirit, which is to say, "you are not saved." And that is what you keep saying, over and over and over again.

    "Peter said to them, “Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38


    "There are 2 different kinds of believers." Your words! Your false words!

    Every thread you make you are always blabbing on about "those walking in the flesh," because they do not believe your false gospel of healing. Well, I cannot imagine a more fleshly gospel than always being worried about healing in the flesh. Seriously! Can you see what you have said?

    You have insulted every person here, because if they do not believe in your gospel, which is all about healing, then they must, be walking in the flesh.

    And yet, that is NOT the gospel! The gospel is about salvation from sins. Your gospel is about salvation from physical sickness. Which one is more about walking in the flesh? The one about healing in the flesh, or the gospel of Jesus Christ, who died to save us and give us eternal life?

    Which is more important? Healing from physical disease or sickness on this earth, or healing from our sins, for eternity?

    The amazing thing, then you have the temerity to set yourself up as being "the kind that walk after the Spirit." Although you are not mature enough to understand the real gospel, which is why I have to question your salvation. This is not a discussion of whether God heals or does not heal. This is YOU, constantly telling every single person who questions your eisegesis, that WE are not walking in the Spirit.

    When, in fact, you are the one walking in the flesh.

    WHAT IS THE GOSPEL?

    It is salvation with sin, the gift of the Holy Spirit, and then following God all the days of our lives, as HE transforms us.

    "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Absolutely not! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves to sin, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching you were entrusted to, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness. 19 (I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh.) For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free with regard to righteousness.21 So what benefit did you then reap from those things that you are now ashamed of? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now, freed from sin and enslaved to God, you have your benefit leading to sanctification, and the end is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:18-23

    Oops! Nary a word about healing in those verses. But a terse and wonderful account of how God took us from being slaves of sin, to receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life in Christ Jesus.

    Paul goes on in Romans 7, to discuss the law of sin and death, before he launches into his amazing treatise in Romans 8, and what the Spirit has done.

    "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Romans 8:1-4

    What do these verses say, Joanie? They say that Jesus has set us free from the sinful flesh, and that WE WALK ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT!

    No second class Christians! No "walking in the flesh" for born again believers. In fact, Paul talks a bit about those who live according to the flesh, in Romans 8:5-8 and how they cannot please God. Then, he says,

    "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is your life because of righteousness." Romans 8:9-10

    Paul says God cares so little for the flesh, that your BODY IS DEAD! A far cry from perfect healing in this life, isn't it? No perfect healing! No walking in some imaginary spirit of a false gospel of healing, but the contrary.

    "For you did not receive the spirit of slavery leading again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 And if children, then heirs (namely, heirs of God and also fellow heirs with Christ)—if indeed we suffer with him so we may also be glorified with him." Romans 8:16-17

    You simply cannot be a child of God, and walk in some fleshly fantasy of our bodies and healing being the gospel. That is the "walking in the flesh" you speak of! You have the gospel upside down.

    Then notice what Paul says "if indeed we suffer with him so we may also be glorified with him." 8:17

    Do you suffer with Christ? Do you suffer with his people? Or do you just copy and paste platitudes that have changed the true gospel of Christ crucified for our sins, to a shallow gospel of perfect healing. Which does not happen in this life time. And in fact, brings shame and hurt on new Christians, or Christians who have been prayed for and not been healed. It is not a gospel of love, or peace. Your gospel is a gospel of hate, greed and selfishness. Of telling people they are second class citizens, because they "walk after the flesh" because they have not been healed. When in fact, they are probably closer to God than you will ever be, because you drive away the truth, you do not embrace suffering, as the Bible commands.

    And totally contrary to everything the Bible says, including the verses I have posted above from Romans.

    "For I consider that our present sufferings cannot even be compared to the coming glory that will be revealed to us" Romans 8:18

    No mention of your false doctrine of healing being the goal for mature Christians! Instead, Paul encourages people to persevere for the glorious day when Christ returns and we are all glorified with him!

    "And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, 29 because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified." Romans 8:28-30

    The goal is to be called of God, to be justified by God, and one day, to be glorified. No false gospel about a perfect life now. Our hope is walking with Jesus, and learning and growing, and one day - we will see him face to face.

    "For now we see in a mirror indirectly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known." 1 Cor. 13:12

    "Dear friends, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever it is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is." 1 John 3:2

    When will our lives be perfect? When he returns, because we will see him just as he is. Your over-realized eschatology is falsely trying to claim a perfect life and healing now. NO! That is walking in the flesh. The promise is for when he returns. And for now? What should we be doing now?

    "What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be[i] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.[j] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,
    “For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
    we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”


    37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:31-39

    Have you ever read the book of Romans, Joanie? I would suggest you do. It tells the real story of what the gospel is, and how we are to live. I'll tell you, Paul never says a word in his systematic treatise on salvation, that our goal is to be healed. Nor, that we are mature after we learn to walk in the Spirit. We walk in the Spirit from the time we are saved. The goal of our salvation is to allow God to change and transform us, by his spirit.

    "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect" Romans 12:2

    "And we all, with unveiled faces reflecting the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another, which is from the Lord, who is the Spirit." 2 Cor. 3:18

    Both "be transformed" and "being transformed" in Greek are in the passive tense. In Romans 12:2 we are commanded to let God transform us. In 2 Cor. 3:18, we are to allow God to transform us. Passive tense - we walk with God, and he uses everything to change us into his image, which will be complete when we see Christ face to face, not in these mortal bodies.

    Depleted likes this.
    "And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me." 2 Cor. 12:9 NASB

  19. #59
    Senior Member Angela53510's Avatar
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    Default Re: Healing through the Son

    Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Romans 5:1-5

    This is the gospel- God has justified us, not by our own works, but through Christ. God tells us to rejoice in 2 things:

    1. Rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
    2. Rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, endurance produces character and character produces hope.

    That is what the truth of godly character. Learning to rejoice anyway! Rejoice because of who God is and what he has done for us. In spite of pain, suffering, and trials and tribulations.

    God gave me Romans 5:3-5, after I started coming out of that terrible, years long depression that this false gospel of healing put me in. God starting healing my heart from the condemnation and hurt of being told I was walking in the flesh, sinning or not believing! And God continued to lead me on that journey, every day! Even now, my hope is that:

    "but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.' Romans 5:8 And:

    "More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." Romans 5:11

    Let go of these lies. Read the Bible for yourself. You have been pulled into a terrible lie. This is NOT about opinion, or different viewpoints on healing. This is about the most fundamental and basic issue there is.

    What is the gospel?

    "It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification." Romans 4:24b-25

    "Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
    3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me" 1 Cor. 15:1-8

    Never a word about perfect healing, nor walking in some kind of imaginary state where one must believe in healing to be walking in the Spirit.

    I challenge you to find me a concise statement, in the Bible, which says, like 1 Cor. 15 does, "this is the gospel... it is all about perfect healing in this life." It simply is not there. Yes, God heals as he wills it, but it is NOT the gospel. And you are believing a false gospel.

    Finally, I will just post a little more from 1 Cor. 15, which proves how wrong you are in your gospel.

    "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all." 1 Cor. 15:22:28

    Things will not be perfect, made right, evil destroyed "when the end comes!" You are trying to make what Christ is going to do, in the future, into now. This is bad theology, bad eschatology and really, just a mixed up soteriology. You are wrongly usurping the role of God, by trying to be something you are not - something that we eagerly await, for when Christ returns!

    And you are trying to spread this false gospel in every thread you post, to the hurt and damage of many. That is why I will continue to oppose you in every thread. This is a heresy, it twists the words of God, it puts everything on you, and misses the actual gospel!

    The gospel is that Christ died for our sins! Anything else is a false or another gospel. It doesn't get more basic than that!

    And please do not answer with another pamphlet (copy and paste). I would be delighted to see you write in your own words answering my objections to your false gospel. If you post Ellis, Prince, Womack.... I will not even deign to look at those people.

    Think for yourself! That is walking in the Spirit. Allow the Holy Spirit to help you walk, instead of relying on these false prophets, with their false, over realized eschatology!
    Depleted likes this.
    "And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me." 2 Cor. 12:9 NASB

  20. #60
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    Default Re: Healing through the Son

    Quote Originally Posted by joaniemarie View Post
    It's very difficult for many Christians to actually believe there are a lot of other Christians on the planet who believe differently than they do. Yes Angela ., many who don't see the Bible the same as you and the others who follow me around here on cc to not discuss an issue but to fight with me personally. But I'm not going to fight with you guys. I'm going to do what I enjoy doing when I come to cc and that is share what I'm learning each day. To discuss it with others of like mindedness so we can learn together.

    For instance., there are 2 different kinds of believers. And we are all capable of being both kinds. The kind that walk after the flesh or the kind that walk after the Spirit. None of us are free of this daily struggle until we die and go to heaven.

    Sharing different Christian's books and writings here is also a blessing to me because I never read anything different than what our church gave the high five on. So our family never heard about things outside of our church. We were taught to fear any one and any thing we were not first taught. I see this being done by Christians a lot today. Keeping other's in line by intimidation and threats. This is not the way Jesus taught us to follow after Him. And this is not the way the Holy Spirit teaches us to follow after Jesus.

    Here is a Christian writer I appreciate very much., Paul Ellis on this subject;




    For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these things are opposed one to the other, that ye should not do those things which ye desire. ~ Galatians 5:17 (Darby)

    Paul describes the Christian life as a tug of war between the flesh and the spirit. The flesh is that part of us that lives purely by natural experience – what we see, hear and smell, etc. – while our spirit is that part of us that is united with Christ and lives by the word of God.

    Did you know it’s possible to be in the Spirit (i.e., saved) yet walk after the flesh? Indeed, this is exactly how many Christians live. They are trusting in God for the forgiveness of their sins, but in most every other respect they live no differently from their unsaved neighbors. When they get sick they queue up in the waiting room and when they get in debt they look for extra work. (I’m not against doctors and hard work!) They may be moral and decent people, but their lives are untouched by the supernatural power of God.


    I suspect most Christians walk after the flesh simply because they don’t know any better. They don’t know that Christ’s atonement provided not only for their complete forgiveness, but also for their healing (1 Pe 2:24), deliverance (Mk 16:17), and provision (Ph 4:19, 2 Cor 8:9)). They are not receiving the full benefits of the cross because they don’t know the full benefits of the cross or, if they do, they think they must work to get them. They live like this because their minds have not been renewed. If this sounds like you, here are two good books that will help sort out your thinking and set you free.


    “Spirit, Soul and Body” by Andrew Wommack


    When you were born again, your spirit – the real you – was instantly made new but your old habits of thinking and your body were essentially unchanged. If you battled with health or emotional issues before you were saved, there’s a good chance you continue to battle with those same issues now that you’re saved. Don’t misunderstand me. There is a huge difference between a sinner and a saint! But until the saint learns to think like a saint, he will continue to think like a sinner and in many ways this is fatal (Rm 8:6).


    Paul didn’t challenge the Roman Christians to renew their minds in order to get saved but so that they would see the will of God manifest in their lives – His will for healing, deliverance, and provision. This is a life-long process. At every decision we either choose to walk after flesh (what do our five senses tell us?) or we renew our minds and walk after the spirit (what does God say?).

    You can walk by sight or you can walk by faith. Some Christians try to do both! They say they’re trusting God to come through for them but at the same time they’re busting their humps trying to fix things themselves. Perhaps they think they’re mixing faith with works but in reality they’re just walking after the flesh. They may talk differently from their unsaved neighbors, but their walk is exactly the same.


    A book which will help you come to grips with these issues is Spirit, Soul and Body by Andrew Wommack. Personally I am not convinced that there is a broad distinction between the spirit and the soul and I object to the implication that only part of you is saved. But I like the way Wommack explains how we work out God’s salvation in our lives.


    If I told you that there was a rich treasure hidden in your yard, you would either believe me or reject me, but nothing would actually change until you started digging. Similarly, we will never see the spiritual blessings that God has already given us revealed unless we dig. Whether your need is healing, deliverance, or provision, this book teaches you how to dig.


    “Extra Virgin Grace” by Ryan Rufus


    Another good book on this subject was published just yesterday. Extra Virgin Grace, by Ryan Rufus, provides a sweeping study of many topics that have long been misunderstood and misrepresented, including the Beatitudes, holiness, eternal security, discipline and one of my all-time favorite subjects, true rest.


    In Extra Virgin Grace, Ryan Rufus takes a close look at Galatians 5 and asks “What does it mean to walk by the spirit?” Traditionally “the spirit” has been interpreted as meaning the Holy Spirit. To walk by the spirit thus means doing whatever the Holy Spirit tells you. But if you look at the context of Galatians 4, you will see that Paul was referring to our reborn spirits.

    Your spirit is one with Christ and is in constant fellowship with the Holy Spirit. So the choice Paul was describing was whether to walk by the limited sensory experience of the flesh, or the unseen reality of our perfectly sanctified spirits. To live by the spirit means learning to make decisions from our spirit rather than our minds.

    Sometimes we just know things that reason cannot explain because they are spiritually discerned. We sense a prompting to pray for someone only to learn later that it was for them a moment of great need. This is how Adam and Eve lived before the Fall – their thinking was spirit-led rather than flesh-based.


    If we understood that our spirits are perfect already (see Heb 10:14), and that we lack nothing (1 Co 1:7), we would spend less time teaching godly character and more time renewing our minds to live by the spirit. Instead of preaching on faith and sanctification, we would seek to reveal our true identity in Christ. As Ryan says, “The church preaches too much about who we aren’t.” Knowing who you now are and Who lives in you is the key to Christian living.
    And here is your list of false teachers you use to prove your false god. Seriously?

    The only times you use scripture, you steal tiny parts of it that your false prophets used to "prove" something they never proved.

    The difference between a teacher and a false teacher -- false teachers have a point and then try and prove it by cut-and-paste verses from the Bible. Real teachers study the Lord, want to do what he wants them to do, and make him the focus.

    Ever notice your focus? Your focus is, "There is more than one way to skin a cat!"

    News flash: We're not skinning cats! This site is not about sharing any ole lunatic-fringe preacher you want to share to prove any lunatic-fringe theory you have, and then get put-upon and oh-so-martyred for your self-esteem. This is about God! The one and only God. Not the god you you'd rather worship. That god does not exist.

    And you're still bound and determined to pull people out to join your lunatic-fringe cause. Again, we're not talking skinning cats! So, no. The purpose of God is not, nor ever will be all about "
    Knowing who you now are and Who lives in you is the key to Christian living," because, once again you keep pointing to YOU! YOU is not God! God is not lunatic-fringe pop-psychology.
    Angela53510 likes this.
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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