When are faith and love completed or perfected?

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plaintalk

Senior Member
#1
Jul 20, 2015
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#1
And he said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him, for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." (gen. 22: 12) NASB

"And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice." (Gen. 22: 18) NASB

When Abraham was tested, he offered up Issac; his faith was working with his works of faith, offering Isaac, to perfect or complete his faith. (James 2: 22) Abraham was justified. in that sense, by his works, by a completed faith. (James 2: 24)

"But whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him." (1 John 2: 5)

Why is love completed by obedience? "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." (John 14: 15) Therefore it appears that we can know that our faith and love are acceptable to the Lord, by keeping His commandments. If this is true then the obedience of faith and works of faith are not opposed to salvation by grace through faith.
God bless.
 
MarcR

MarcR

Senior Member
#2
Feb 12, 2015
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#2
plaintalk said:
And he said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him, for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." (gen. 22: 12) NASB

"And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice." (Gen. 22: 18) NASB

When Abraham was tested, he offered up Issac; his faith was working with his works of faith, offering Isaac, to perfect or complete his faith. (James 2: 22) Abraham was justified. in that sense, by his works, by a completed faith. (James 2: 24)

"But whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him." (1 John 2: 5)

Why is love completed by obedience? "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." (John 14: 15) Therefore it appears that we can know that our faith and love are acceptable to the Lord, by keeping His commandments. If this is true then the obedience of faith and works of faith are not opposed to salvation by grace through faith.
God bless.
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What do we have that God needs? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

What can we give God that He desires? Trust, dependence, and obedience.

Obedience is essential to real expression of love.

The issue is how does obedience operate?

The reason we need a Savior is that we are not able to please God by our own efforts.

Our obedience is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit's influence and empowerment in our lives.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#3
Sep 4, 2012
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#3
It says that Jesus was perfected in his death, so I guess that's when we will be too.
 
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plaintalk

Senior Member
#4
Jul 20, 2015
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MarcR
Thanks for your comments.
Three times Abraham's works are attributed to his faith, Heb. 11: 8, 9 and 17. It seems to me that that when are efforts are caused by faith in God, motivated by love and hope, (1 Cor. 13: 13), then calling them "our own efforts" is a misnomer. Faith is a work of God (John 6: 29), given to us by the grace of God. God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. We love because He first loved us. (1 John 4: 19) When we were begotten by God, faith (1 John 5: 1) love (1 John 4: 7), hope (1 Peter 1: 3) and obedience (1 John 2: 29) were implanted within us through the word which was implanted in our heart. (James 1: 18, 21; 1 Peter 1: 23) God opens our heart to to respond to the message. (Acts 16: 14)

Abraham's faith was working with his works (of faith) and as a result of the works of faith, faith was perfected. The situation is similar with us, the Lord has appointed certain works of faith that we should do: calling on the name of the Lord, confessing His name before men, repentance in His name and baptism in the name of Christ. When these works of faith have been obeyed, they lead to salvation, and we know that our faith, motivated by love, is approved by God. We are not justified nor saved by faith alone. (James 2: 24)
God bless.
 
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plaintalk

Senior Member
#5
Jul 20, 2015
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#5
He Rose From The Dead-

Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things he suffered. And having been made perfect, He became to all that obey Him the source of eternal salvation. (Heb. 5: 8, 9)

And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (Philip. 2: 8)

Jesus, although a Son, learned obedience.
He became complete or perfect when He died on the cross.
When we are baptized into Christ, we are baptized into His death. (Rom 6: 3) Yes, Jesus was perfected in His death and we are perfected when we die with Him.
In baptism, the old self is crucified with Him. (Rom. 6: 6)
Our faith is deemed complete or perfect when we obey God. (Gen. 22: 12, 18)
We are saved by a perfected faith, a loving, obedient faith.
He becomes the source of eternal salvation when we by faith obey Him.
God bless.
 
L

LPT

Guest
#6
#6
Interesting thread, could the story of Job be a similar example of Faith and Love.
 
BenFTW

BenFTW

Senior Member
#8
Oct 7, 2012
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plaintalk said:
And he said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him, for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." (gen. 22: 12) NASB

"And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice." (Gen. 22: 18) NASB

When Abraham was tested, he offered up Issac; his faith was working with his works of faith, offering Isaac, to perfect or complete his faith. (James 2: 22) Abraham was justified. in that sense, by his works, by a completed faith. (James 2: 24)

"But whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him." (1 John 2: 5)

Why is love completed by obedience? "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." (John 14: 15) Therefore it appears that we can know that our faith and love are acceptable to the Lord, by keeping His commandments. If this is true then the obedience of faith and works of faith are not opposed to salvation by grace through faith.
God bless.
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Talk is cheap. Faith without works is dead. Actions speak louder than words. We say we believe, but do our actions confirm such a statement? Our love that the world will know us by, according to scripture, is not something only professed, but expressed. It is a witness to the reality of our identity, in Jesus Christ.
 
Honey_Bee

Honey_Bee

Member
#9
Apr 4, 2018
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#9
In this age of grace, and in this current ministry, the ministry of reconciliation, according to the "mystery of Christ", we are to understand that the love of God is "in" Christ, positional standing for those who have "obeyed" a form of doctrine from the "heart", ye are complete in Him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.[SUP]18 [/SUP]Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


Jesus is my righteousness, His faith is perfect, His faith is my faith, because He is the head of the body.

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith
 
FlyingDove

FlyingDove

Senior Member
#10
Dec 27, 2017
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#10
Abrahams Faith via Paul, Abrahams Obedience via James

The two writers reference different time frames & statements in Abraham's life:

Pauls, recorded event is from Gen 15:6 "believed"

James, recorded event is from Gen 22:18 "obeyed"

Now, Contrast the word "believed" in Gen. 15:6 and the word "obeyed" in Gen. 22:18

Gen:15; Pauls speaks of a time 30-40 years before the time James refers to.

In Paul's Gen 15:6 reference: It's Abrahams Faith/Belief that obtains Him Righteousness.

In James reference in Gen 22:18 (30-40 YEARS LATER) Abrahams obedience is a result of his Faith. Which he abtained 30-40 years earlier.

Romans 1:5 Through him we received grace & apostleship ""to call all the Gentiles to the obedience""
""that comes from faith" for his name’s sake.
(NOTE: It's Faith that leads to obedience. Obedience is a result of Faith)

Romans 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, ""so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience"" ""that comes from faith""
(NOTE: Faith leads to obedience. Obedience is a result & evidence of ones Faith)

We as did Abraham: Obtain Righteousness/Justification: Thru FAITH

Eph 2:
8 "By grace" are ye saved" "through faith" "not of yourselves" it is the "gift" of God

9 "Not of works" (NOT BY OUR WORKS), "lest any man should boast"

The fruit Faith produces, is Obedience!
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#11
Aug 28, 2012
19,211
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It's not when are faith and love completed but rather when was love and faith completed and the answer to that is when Jesus was pinned to that cross. As far as both and love and faith go we will always be lacking for we are imperfect beings who are always lacking in some way or form. Love and faith are both things that we will always strive to be strong in but will never perfect and that is ok because that is why we have Jesus he covers what we lack and strengthens what we don't.

Love and faith coincide together, it something that both requires a daily practice of but more than that they cannot truly exist without each other. one can practice faith every day and move mountains but without love it is useless, this is not only speaking of the motives in a persons heart but also faith without love can only go so far because it is his love that makes a persons faith sky rocket because only his love is able to make what human efforts of faith is into his supernatural faith which unlike the faith of man has no limits.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#12
Jul 18, 2017
24,347
12,872
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#12
LPT said:
Interesting thread, could the story of Job be a similar example of Faith and Love.
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Not for the Hyper-Grace false teachers such as Paul Ellis (promoted by another poster week after week and yet to be banned). Look at what contempt Ellis has for Job:

Tradition has taught that Job endured unimaginable suffering with poise and noble patience. He was a giant of the faith who never said anything wrong, and he is a great example for us all to follow.
Click to expand...
Baloney.
As we have seen in this series, Job was, at times, a self-righteous whiner who complained to high heaven. He blamed God for his troubles and even accused the Lord of being unjust.
Click to expand...


https://escapetoreality.org/2015/11/04/jobs-grace-encounter/
 
so-jesus-e-deus

so-jesus-e-deus

Senior Member
#13
Feb 7, 2017
1,605
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#13
Faith and love are completed with the work of Christ in and through us, and not by our effort in obey the law.
 
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plaintalk

Senior Member
#14
Jul 20, 2015
445
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#14
Flying Dove
Well, we can be sure that both Paul in Romans and Galatians and James were speaking about the same topic, “faith that is reckoned for righteousness,” because they both quote Genesis 15: 6.

For what does the Scripture say? “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” (Rom. 4: 3)
Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. (Gal. 3: 6)
And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. (James 2: 23)

I know your thoughts are representative of many and deserve a response. My response is a little different, the key to understanding Paul and James is, IMO, not the time factor, because James states that Genesis 15: 6 was “fulfilled” by the events recorded in Genesis 22, nor the differences between the word “believed” in Genesis 15: 6 and the word “obeyed” in Genesis 22: 18 since the promise made to Abraham was repeated a second time in conjunction with “obeyed”.

Paul, in his two epistles was addressing those who taught that Christians are required to keep the Law. He maintains that “ a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.” (Rom. 3: 28) In my opinion it is a serious error to assume that Paul was speaking against works of any kind, particularly works of faith. “Works of faith” and the “obedience of faith” are acknowledged as one of the reasons we were created by God. (Eph. 2: 10)

James on the other hand was addressing those who taught that justification is by faith alone. James was not, in my opinion, denying justification by faith, but he very clearly and emphatically stated that justification is not by faith alone. (James 2: 24) Sadly, this teaching is ignored by many who have not had the opportunity to consider the several factors that are said to save. Yes, we are saved by grace through faith which works in love. (Gal. 5: 6) Please consider that the Scriptures never say that salvation is by faith alone.

The following are offered for your consideration; according to the Scriptures they do save or give life in conjunction with grace and faith :

  • We are saved by calling upon the name of the Lord. (Acts 2: 21; Rom. 10: 13)
  • We are saved by confessing His name before men. (matt 10; 32, 33; Rom. 10: 9)
  • We are saved by repentance. (2 Cor. 7: 10; Acts 11: 18)
  • We are saved by baptism in the name of Christ. (Mark 16: 15, 16; 1 Peter 3: 21)
  • We are saved by the washing of regeneration. (Titus 3: 5)
  • We are saved by obeying our Lord. (Heb. 5: 9)
  • We are saved by persevering in doing good and obeying the truth. (Rom. 2: 6- 10)
  • We are saved by love. (1 John 3: 14; James 2: 12)
  • We are saved by hope. (Rom. 8: 24)

You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; (James 2: 22)
God bless
 
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plaintalk

Senior Member
#15
Jul 20, 2015
445
15
18
#15
Blain

But whoever keeps his word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him. (1 John 2: 5)

You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected. (James 2: 22)
God bless.
 
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plaintalk

Senior Member
#16
Jul 20, 2015
445
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#16
so- Jesus

dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (2 Thess, 1: 8)

It is the gospel we are called to obey, not the law!

And having been made perfect, he became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation. (Heb. 5: 9)
God bless.
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#17
#17
I'm going with obedience also as #1

I say that because it was disobedience that led to the downfall

and God knows...it is not always easy to say no especially when you do not understand and cannot see why something should be a no.

7During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

8Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him Hebrews 5
 
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plaintalk

Senior Member
#18
Jul 20, 2015
445
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#18
Nehemiah6

Behold we count those blessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord's dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful. (James 5: 11)
 
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reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#19
Mar 23, 2016
6,796
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#19

Gal 5:6 tells us faith which worketh by love. Faith, hope and love work hand in hand together. Love energizes faith and faith is the foundation upon which our hope rests.
 
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reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#20
Mar 23, 2016
6,796
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#20
plaintalk said:
He became complete or perfect when He died on the cross.
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This statement is inaccurate. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was perfect beginning to end.

If He had not gone to the cross, then (and only then) He would not have been "complete or perfect".

In John 14:30,31 we read: Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do.

It was His love for the Father which sustained Him through the horrendous crucifixion and death.

In Hebrews 12:2 we read: Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The joy that was set before Him is what He stood to lose if He had decided to step down from the cross.

We know He prayed in the garden of Gethsemane and asked three times that the bitter cup pass from Him (Matt 26:39, 42, 44). We know He could have prayed and the Father would have sent more than twelve legions of angels to His aid (Matt 26:53).

But if He had done that what would have happened in His relationship to Father? Would He have ended up just as we are ... so easily overcome by sin?

We have got to get to the point in our lives where our fellowship with the Father, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, is more important to us than whatever lust we are facing. We only have to die to that one desire we face. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ endured the cross, despising the shame (Heb 12:2) and died for us. He gave up His life so that we could enjoy the same sweet fellowship with Father that He enjoyed.

In Ephesians 3:17-18, Paul prayed That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

When we know the love of Christ, that all-encompassing love He had for the Father, then we will understand how and why He could choose to endure the cross, despising the shame.
 
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