Do we decide to be saved?
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Really? Don't you remember parents or children? Family never chooses family, and yet love works out often.
I loved Mom because she first loved me. I love God because he first loved me. I love hubby... okay. Didn't work out there. I loved him before he loved me.
(But only two days before he figured out he loved me. lol)
I loved Mom because she first loved me. I love God because he first loved me. I love hubby... okay. Didn't work out there. I loved him before he loved me.
(But only two days before he figured out he loved me. lol)For the purpose of discussion, it is both.
From the human context- it is decision
From God's context- it is election from the beginning because to Him, the beginning and end are the same.
There are scriptures that support both sides, here are some:
John 12:47As for anyone who hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words: The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
Deut 30:19"I call heaven and earth to witnessagainst you today, that I have set before you lifeand death, the blessing and the curse. So chooselife in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
From the human context- it is decision
From God's context- it is election from the beginning because to Him, the beginning and end are the same.
There are scriptures that support both sides, here are some:
John 12:47As for anyone who hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words: The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
Deut 30:19"I call heaven and earth to witnessagainst you today, that I have set before you lifeand death, the blessing and the curse. So chooselife in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
God promised Abraham the land as an everlasting possession. Abraham died without ever receiving the promise. So how is Abraham to inherit the land if he is dead?
He will inherit the land in the same way all his children will. By resurrection from the dead.
All heirs of the promise attain it by faith. Abraham proved his faithfulness when he offered his son Isaac. Abraham believed God and acted in faith. The same holds true for all. Believe the gospel and remain faithful by being obedient to God.
He will inherit the land in the same way all his children will. By resurrection from the dead.
All heirs of the promise attain it by faith. Abraham proved his faithfulness when he offered his son Isaac. Abraham believed God and acted in faith. The same holds true for all. Believe the gospel and remain faithful by being obedient to God.
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That sounds close to to Total Depravity, but close like really bad horseshoe players "close."
I do believe in Total Depravity. Don't believe in Total Inability. Total Inability is as offensive to me as it is to you.
Ability is involved. Not for salvation, (well for salvation, but only through the Savior, since the victim cannot choose -- we were dead), but for choice. Just like a murderer has choice on whether to kill someone or not, so does every man have choice to be saved or not. BUT just like a murderer, you can't really be called a murderer until you already murdered. And after that point, you don't get to choose whether you are or aren't a murderer. You are a murderer if you murder.
In like kind, we had choice. We had choice to follow the Lord or not. To do good or to do evil. And we all chose. (Back to John 3:19-20.) And once we made that choice, we lost the freedom to not decided to be what we were -- sinners. We were dead in our sin. Spiritually dead, never to raise ourselves from our own ashes, never to want to do anything but hide in the darkness to enjoy that sin. We were that! That was what our nature became. And, that happened way back at the Fall, but each one of us proved that punishment for Adam and Eve didn't just belong to them. Each one of us were born in sin and enjoyed the experience. And died in it.
The Savior! The Savior regenerated us! He took our dead spirits and breathed new life into them -- his breath. His Spirit. And we arose from the dead of sin. The Light -- The Savior blinded us in his beauty, his wonder, his sovereignty, his Godness! Beautiful, beautiful sight after all those years of death and darkness. And, suddenly, we were willing! Willing to do HIS good. This is new! After all, what was that first thought you had? "I am not worthy. Forgive me." THAT is choice! And that is given to us by the same one who took these old dead spirits and breathed in his holy Spirit into us.
There is choice. There is always choice. But choice stems from nature. What does sinful nature beget? Sin! We could choose. If we could not, that is truly unfair of God. But we would not. We chose evil because it suited us. And we were condemnable in that sin, because we did choose it. We could choose not to sin, but we did not.
So we needed the one and only Savior who could bring us new life to choose. And just like Mom loved me so I loved her, God loved me, so I love him. THAT is choice in no choice. Too good a deal to turn down.
I do believe in Total Depravity. Don't believe in Total Inability. Total Inability is as offensive to me as it is to you.
Ability is involved. Not for salvation, (well for salvation, but only through the Savior, since the victim cannot choose -- we were dead), but for choice. Just like a murderer has choice on whether to kill someone or not, so does every man have choice to be saved or not. BUT just like a murderer, you can't really be called a murderer until you already murdered. And after that point, you don't get to choose whether you are or aren't a murderer. You are a murderer if you murder.
In like kind, we had choice. We had choice to follow the Lord or not. To do good or to do evil. And we all chose. (Back to John 3:19-20.) And once we made that choice, we lost the freedom to not decided to be what we were -- sinners. We were dead in our sin. Spiritually dead, never to raise ourselves from our own ashes, never to want to do anything but hide in the darkness to enjoy that sin. We were that! That was what our nature became. And, that happened way back at the Fall, but each one of us proved that punishment for Adam and Eve didn't just belong to them. Each one of us were born in sin and enjoyed the experience. And died in it.
The Savior! The Savior regenerated us! He took our dead spirits and breathed new life into them -- his breath. His Spirit. And we arose from the dead of sin. The Light -- The Savior blinded us in his beauty, his wonder, his sovereignty, his Godness! Beautiful, beautiful sight after all those years of death and darkness. And, suddenly, we were willing! Willing to do HIS good. This is new! After all, what was that first thought you had? "I am not worthy. Forgive me." THAT is choice! And that is given to us by the same one who took these old dead spirits and breathed in his holy Spirit into us.
There is choice. There is always choice. But choice stems from nature. What does sinful nature beget? Sin! We could choose. If we could not, that is truly unfair of God. But we would not. We chose evil because it suited us. And we were condemnable in that sin, because we did choose it. We could choose not to sin, but we did not.
So we needed the one and only Savior who could bring us new life to choose. And just like Mom loved me so I loved her, God loved me, so I love him. THAT is choice in no choice. Too good a deal to turn down.
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Might want to brush more cobwebs out. (I know you're on the other side of the world, so I'm blaming this on tired. It's getting close to bedtime for you. lol) Total Inability and "don't believe in free will" doesn't accurately describe Reformed/Calvinist's beliefs.
I don't believe in free will, but not because we lack choice. We have choice. I don't believe in free will, because our will is locked into our nature. Locked in ain't free.
I don't believe in free will, but not because we lack choice. We have choice. I don't believe in free will, because our will is locked into our nature. Locked in ain't free.
If God would elect some for salvation, it follows both logically and theologically that He would be electing others for damnation. But since the offer of eternal life is to "whosoever will" it should be crystal clear that God elects no one for salvation. Rather He offers salvation to all of humanity, since all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and there is none righteous, no, not one.
As to whether sinners "decide" to respond to the Gospel, it is perfectly clear from Scripture that it is a decision involving repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. This is confirmed in Acts 2.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
The question "What shall we do?" confirms that sinners must do something. And about 3,000 people responded to the Gospel that day and were baptized the same day.
As to whether sinners "decide" to respond to the Gospel, it is perfectly clear from Scripture that it is a decision involving repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. This is confirmed in Acts 2.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
The question "What shall we do?" confirms that sinners must do something. And about 3,000 people responded to the Gospel that day and were baptized the same day.
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Again, who? Because that's not close to it for Calvinism, and I don't know any other Christian beliefs that even hint at that. Calvinist are all about ability. We just know even able no one conceives to want to do God's good.
And, Calvinists are definitely not believers of God wooing. We're all for God is sovereign. God gets his will every. Single. Time! We do not have a sissy god. lol
Sooo, who?
And, Calvinists are definitely not believers of God wooing. We're all for God is sovereign. God gets his will every. Single. Time! We do not have a sissy god. lol
Sooo, who?
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Right. And it's an important distinction. We are totally depraved, not utterly depraved. We sometimes choose to do good. Utterly depraved is makes-Sodom-and-Gomorrah-look-like-a-Sunday-picnic bad. God does hold back how depraved we can be.
Is that what is considered passive grace? (I still don't get passive vs. active.)
Is that what is considered passive grace? (I still don't get passive vs. active.
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Really??
Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abram were Jewish?
Abram----Abraham----Isaac---Jacob--Named changed to Israel---12 SONS--12 tribes....NATION of ISRAEL....
WAS Adam JEWISH? What about Cain? <---So ABEL was JEWISH but Cain was not as a lost man?
Trying to understand how all the O.T. saints can be JEWISH before the Nation of Israel was even born.............
Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abram were Jewish?
Abram----Abraham----Isaac---Jacob--Named changed to Israel---12 SONS--12 tribes....NATION of ISRAEL....
WAS Adam JEWISH? What about Cain? <---So ABEL was JEWISH but Cain was not as a lost man?
Trying to understand how all the O.T. saints can be JEWISH before the Nation of Israel was even born.............
Paul disagrees.
Rom 9:21Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use? 22What ifGod, intending to show His wrath and make Hispower known, bore with great patience the vesselsof His wrath, prepared for destruction?
Rom 9:21Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use? 22What ifGod, intending to show His wrath and make Hispower known, bore with great patience the vesselsof His wrath, prepared for destruction?
Since the Bible does not contradict itself, it is not necessary to take this Scripture out of context and claim that God elects some for damnation. That would not only be absurd but unrighteous, and there is no unrighteousness with God.
As to the meaning of this verse, there are some wicked men who will never repent, no matter how many opportunities they have bee given. Hence they become "vessels of wrath", and that evil Pharaoh was a good example. But God did not ARBITRARILY appoint Pharaoh for damnation.
As to the meaning of this verse, there are some wicked men who will never repent, no matter how many opportunities they have bee given. Hence they become "vessels of wrath", and that evil Pharaoh was a good example. But God did not ARBITRARILY appoint Pharaoh for damnation.
Are you still trying to explain something that Paul explains clearly?
Rom 9:10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[SUP]d[/SUP]13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[SUP]e[/SUP]14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[SUP]f[/SUP]
16It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[SUP]g[/SUP] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”[SUP]h[/SUP] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
There are scriptures that explain both sides but my opinion is timing- Jesus death and resurrection divides time and people into two major categories. The people post Jesus, have the free will but for the Pre Jesus people - God's will had power over their choices.
Rom 9:10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[SUP]d[/SUP]13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[SUP]e[/SUP]14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[SUP]f[/SUP]
16It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[SUP]g[/SUP] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”[SUP]h[/SUP] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
There are scriptures that explain both sides but my opinion is timing- Jesus death and resurrection divides time and people into two major categories. The people post Jesus, have the free will but for the Pre Jesus people - God's will had power over their choices.