A Question about Free Will, Hell and how it is all set up.

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Apr 14, 2018
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#41
If God Makes people do something that is not their will.
I'll try to boil this down as much as possible for ease of conversation. So let me just ask:
Is it possible for God to make a person do something and have it still be their will?
 

Gabriel2020

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
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#42
There is a difference between believing in God and knowing him. He desire one to know him, resulting in a better understanding of who he is and how he operates
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#43
Firstly, I'm sorry if I have been obtuse. It was never my intention. What Magenta seems to be telling me is that even though I may think that my plan is better, it is not. And that I cannot understand why God's plan is best. But I wish to try to understand why God has made his plan the way it is regardless.
God desires that you seek Him, and He promises that if you do, you will find Him. Do you believe there is something beyond this crazy world we inhabit? I do not mean the universe, but some greater reality? Some sense of meaning and purpose that eludes you, no matter where else you look? I am sorry if I am going off track of your original question. I am also trying to understand why you are asking the questions you are, which is why I asked if you had some awareness of there being a God? You did not answer that. It is rather difficult to try to encourage people to seek something out if they are already convinced it does no exist.

God knows people are not seeking Him. He has gotten a lot of bad press. Religion is also looked at with a jaundiced eye by outsiders. But the thing is, if you are searching for truth, really truly seeking, Truth is embodied in the Person of Jesus Christ. Everything was made by Him, and for Him. So even if you are ambivalent about the Biblical religious and Jesus stuff, if you are sincerely seeking truth, and become willing to humble yourself before God, He will reveal Himself to you. Also:


 
Apr 14, 2018
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#44
There is a difference between believing in God and knowing him. He desire one to know him, resulting in a better understanding of who he is and how he operates
I would also like to strengthen my faith and my belief. And I would like to do so by gaining a better understanding.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#45
We are not truly free until in Christ.

Therefore, we do not have free will if we are not real Christians and so we cannot freely decide to accept or reject Him.

But it also depends on your definition of "free will".

Also, to be "free" does not mean to be "unlimited". We decide based on our internal and external processes we do not control.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#46
I am suggesting that through God's omnipotence he can make everyone acknowledge and love him while still having free will. I am not saying that he should accept anyone into Heaven when they deny him.
You contradict yourself to say we choose but He makes us. He makes it possible, but He does not force you to choose Him. He gives grace to the humble, but resists the proud.
 
Apr 14, 2018
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#47
God desires that you seek Him, and He promises that if you do, you will find Him. Do you believe there is something beyond this crazy world we inhabit? I do not mean the universe, but some greater reality? Some sense of meaning and purpose that eludes you, no matter where else you look? I am sorry if I am going off track of your original question. I am also trying to understand why you are asking the questions you are, which is why I asked if you had some awareness of there being a God? You did not answer that. It is rather difficult to try to encourage people to seek something out if they are already convinced it does no exist.

God knows people are not seeking Him. He has gotten a lot of bad press. Religion is also looked at with a jaundiced eye by outsiders. But the thing is, if you are searching for truth, really truly seeking, Truth is embodied in the Person of Jesus Christ. Everything was made by Him, and for Him. So even if you are ambivalent about the Biblical religious and Jesus stuff, if you are sincerely seeking truth, and become willing to humble yourself before God, He will reveal Himself to you. Also:


Thanks! I've been a christian for quite some time. But lately I feel like my faith has been waning. Primarily due to me being unable to find an answer to my opening post.
 
Apr 14, 2018
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#48
We are not truly free until in Christ.

Therefore, we do not have free will if we are not real Christians and so we cannot freely decide to accept or reject Him.

But it also depends on your definition of "free will".

Also, to be "free" does not mean to be "unlimited". We decide based on our internal and external processes we do not control.
I can understand that. But for the discussion of my opening post I would define free will as the ability to accept or deny God.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#49
Thanks! I've been a christian for quite some time. But lately I feel like my faith has been waning. Primarily due to me being unable to find an answer to my opening post.
If I can, I would recommend you the best book I have ever read regarding all these issues - Theodicy by G.W. Leibniz.

It may answer many of your questions. Its also online.
 
Apr 14, 2018
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#50
You contradict yourself to say we choose but He makes us. He makes it possible, but He does not force you to choose Him. He gives grace to the humble, but resists the proud.
But is it within His power for Him to force us to choose him while still having it be free will?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#51
I would also like to strengthen my faith and my belief. And I would like to do so by gaining a better understanding.
What do you believe in now? It is hard to believe you believe in God. Your questions all lean away from that direction, showing that your faith is not placed in Him. So what are you trying to strengthen?
 
Apr 14, 2018
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#52
If I can, I would recommend you the best book I have ever read regarding all these issues - Theodicy by G.W. Leibniz.

It may answer many of your questions. Its also online.
Thanks! I'll make a note of it~
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#53
I can understand that. But for the discussion of my opening post I would define free will as the ability to accept or deny God.
Ok, accept or deny God... but:
1. what was his/her childhood
2. what is her/his intelect, IQ etc.
3. what is her/his character (flegmatic, choleric, deep, on the surface, slow, fast thinking, long time to change or fast unstable changes from one thing to another...)
4. not everybody has the equal amount of information
5. not everybody has the equal amount of faith

--- as you can see, there are so many factors one cannot give to himself that even though we can say that God does not force us to believe and to love Him, He is still in a very good control of that
 
Apr 14, 2018
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#54
What do you believe in now? It is hard to believe you believe in God. Your questions all lean away from that direction, showing that your faith is not placed in Him. So what are you trying to strengthen?
I am unsure of what I believe now. Because I cannot understand why God has made a system that would inevitably send people to Hell when his omnipotence would lead me to believe that he has the power to create a system that would send us all to Heaven.
 
Apr 14, 2018
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#55
Ok, accept or deny God... but:
1. what was his/her childhood
2. what is her/his intelect, IQ etc.
3. what is her/his character (flegmatic, choleric, deep, on the surface, slow, fast thinking, long time to change or fast unstable changes from one thing to another...)
4. not everybody has the equal amount of information
5. not everybody has the equal amount of faith

--- as you can see, there are so many factors one cannot give to himself that even though we can say that God does not force us to believe and to love Him, He is still in a very good control of that
I was taught that everyone has an innate knowledge of God in their heart. And that even though someone may never hear the gospel before they die that they would still either accept or deny Christ in their heart.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#56
I am unsure of what I believe now. Because I cannot understand why God has made a system that would inevitably send people to Hell when his omnipotence would lead me to believe that he has the power to create a system that would send us all to Heaven.
We cannot answer that specifically and technically, because all reasons God has will never be known to us, we are limited creatures and we see things from our perspectives.

But if you will be satisfied with general, theoretical answer - God created universe in the way it is, because He had very good reasons to create it this way. It is (somehow) the best possible creation, but we are unable to see it (yet). Its partly a matter of trust, partly a matter of ability to see things from a general view.
 
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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#57
Thanks! I've been a christian for quite some time. But lately I feel like my faith has been waning. Primarily due to me being unable to find an answer to my opening post.
When you say you have been a Christian for quite some time, what does that mean to you? Because what you have showed us is that you have not placed your trust in God. I am sorry to be so blunt :eek: I don't like wasting words :D What I am getting at is, some people think they are Christian simply because they were born into a Christian home and brought up going to church on Sundays, etc. That does not make one a Christian. Giving mental assent to the things they have been taught, but not truly believed in their hearts, is not enough :( That is a nominal Christian (in name only), and not a born again believer.
 
Apr 14, 2018
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#58
We cannot answer that specifically and technically, because all reasons God has will never be known to us, we are limited creatures and we see things from our perspectives.

But if you will be satisfied with general, theoretical answer - God created universe in the way it is, because He had very good reasons to create it this way. It is (somehow) the best possible creation, but we are unable to see it (yet). Its partly a matter of trust, partly a matter of ability to see things from a general view.
We can understand so many other things about God. We understand that he loves us, that he created us in his image. Why should it be that I am unable to understand why he sends people to Hell?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#59
We can understand so many other things about God. We understand that he loves us, that he created us in his image. Why should it be that I am unable to understand why he sends people to Hell?
If we can understand that God is love and that He is omnipotent, then we can imply that hell is somehow part of the creation the loving and omnipotent God would create.

Like black color in a colorful picture. Like low tones in a music. It was somehow necessary for a general image/song to be perfect, thats why God made it. The simple fact that we, from our small planet and from our small physical life are not able to give a specific answer to "why", because we are not able to see things from God´s perspective, does not mean that we should lose our faith in Him. My dog also does not understand many things in my room.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#60
I am unsure of what I believe now. Because I cannot understand why God has made a system that would inevitably send people to Hell when his omnipotence would lead me to believe that he has the power to create a system that would send us all to Heaven.
Isn't it really true that people send themselves there by choosing to do evil and not love the truth? He's simply allowing them to have what they want.