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Thread: ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

  1. #21
    Senior Member UnderGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

    Quote Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead View Post
    What is picking up your cross to you?
    The context is death, the death of self-effort for salvation.

    24Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.[1]


    Jesus was constantly pointing to the way of salvation and Paul explains it further.
    Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

    Romans 6:4-5

    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    Galatians 2:20
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    For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    Romans 6:14

  2. #22
    Senior Member HeRoseFromTheDead's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderGrace View Post
    The context is death, the death of self-effort for salvation.

    24Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.[1]


    Jesus was constantly pointing to the way of salvation and Paul explains it further.
    Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

    Romans 6:4-5

    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    Galatians 2:20
    What does "self effort" (as if there could be any other kind of effort) have to do with that? Sometimes dying to one's carnal nature takes tremendous "self effort". Suppose that someone is being tempted by a sin. Is it wrong for that person to exert "self effort" to restrain himself from doing that sin? Self control is "self effort".
    This is the work of God: that you believe into the one [the father] set apart. John 6:29

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  3. #23
    Senior Member UnderGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

    Self effort was shortened...the full concept is the effort to save oneself.

    One cannot save himself/herself. To believe in the Good News is to stop trying to self oneself, by works, or living under the law and accept His sacrifice, death on our behalf.

    In one sense I agree, it does take a change of mind to gets one eyes off oneself and one's own false belief in one's ability to do good works for salvation, and find the narrow gate, which is Jesus and leave our pride and striving behind, and rest in His work and what He accomplished for us.

    Grace within the life of the believer is what restrains one from sin.

    One crucifies one's pride and lays it all down at the foot of the cross and accepts His sacrifice, as a finished work, on one's behalf.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead View Post
    What does "self effort" (as if there could be any other kind of effort) have to do with that? Sometimes dying to one's carnal nature takes tremendous "self effort". Suppose that someone is being tempted by a sin. Is it wrong for that person to exert "self effort" to restrain himself from doing that sin? Self control is "self effort".
    For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    Romans 6:14

  4. #24
    Senior Member HeRoseFromTheDead's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderGrace View Post
    Self effort was shortened...the full concept is the effort to save oneself.

    One cannot save himself/herself. To believe in the Good News is to stop trying to self oneself, by works, or living under the law and accept His sacrifice, death on our behalf.

    In one sense I agree, it does take a change of mind to gets one eyes off oneself and one's own false belief in one's ability to do good works for salvation, and find the narrow gate, which is Jesus and leave our pride and striving behind, and rest in His work and what He accomplished for us.

    Grace within the life of the believer is what restrains one from sin.

    One crucifies one's pride and lays it all down at the foot of the cross and accepts His sacrifice, as a finished work, on one's behalf.
    How do you explain this?

    Fix [your] attention on yourself and on your teaching. Continue in them, for [by] doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Timothy 4:16

    I was disappointed that you didn't answer my question if it was wrong for a person to exert self effort to avoid sinning.
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    This is the work of God: that you believe into the one [the father] set apart. John 6:29

    Interlinear Bible ... Interlinear LXX ... theWord ... Azal River (Zechariah 14:5) ... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  5. #25
    Senior Member UnderGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

    Okay, let me go back and reread see if I can further clarify and answer your question.

    Good scripture, I will have to go back and read it in context.

    It will have to wait a few hours though, I have work to do before the work week starts.


    Quote Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead View Post
    How do you explain this?
    Fix [your] attention on yourself and on your teaching. Continue in them, for [by] doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Timothy 4:16

    I was disappointed that you didn't answer my question if it was wrong for a person to exert self effort to avoid sinning.
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    For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    Romans 6:14

  6. #26
    Senior Member kaylagrl's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

    Quote Originally Posted by MessageOfTheCross View Post
    ​Apply the Cross to the problem and receive grace!!!!!!!

    The cross has already been applied to the situation!!! If a person has asked Jesus into their hearts and turned from sin the cross has already been applied. The blood of Christ has been applied by way of the cross. Salvation is as simple as ABC...

    Admit you are a sinner. Believe He is Lord. Call on His Name.

    ​If a person has done this the cross HAS been applied. It doesn't need to be done twice,over and over again. ONCE!!
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    Default Re: ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

    Quote Originally Posted by MessageOfTheCross View Post
    ​You believe this because you have fallen from grace. You are being oppressed by Satan (controlled).

    I'm pretty sure this is against the TOS

    I reported it. I am wondering how much longer this poster is going to be allowed to mouth off at believers with this kind of false condemnation

    these Swaggart threads are what is oppressive

    Swaggart confessed in 1988 and in 1991 he was AGAIN caught with a prostitute and told people God told him to tell those who were again taken back, that it was none of their business

    someone said in another thread they believe Swaggart is a believer.

    I have to ask, does a believer continue in overt sexual practices that are in denial of the lives a believer is supposed live?

    let alone one who preaches to the world about sinful lives?

    the utter hypocrisy is beyond belief and so is his bizarre personal Bible with his comments in red as though they were the words of Jesus

    this is beyond just a disagreement...even a very heated one...this message from Swaggart is ANTI-the work of Christ and totally skews the word

    time to report this junk until it disappears. it's harmful and young believers or any believers IMO, do not need to address this to a poster who appears to believe he has some kind of authoritative backing here. he doesn't.

    this is false teaching being promoted by a false teacher who believes he is the only one who has the whole truth of scripture

    this is cultlike preaching by Swaggart and needs to be seen as such

  8. #28
    Senior Member 7seasrekeyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

    Quote Originally Posted by Dino246 View Post
    Your "modern-day Judaizers" idea is hogwash. It completely obfuscates who the Judaizers were and what they attempted to achieve.

    Instead of mixing truth with error, try reading the Bible without someone's commentary on it. Get back to the plain truth.

    the problem is that he does not read the Bible

    he reads the so called 'expositor's' Bible..the red letter edition...only in this one, the red letters are the words of Swaggart. his posts are rife with copy/pastes from that book. one could use the JW edition with as much effectiveness and truth

    Swaggart is prolific throughout his 'expositing' and as I pointed out in another thread, the comments are often enough just plain wrong as where he concluded that heaven is a planet north of earth. and, as I pointed out there, that would be a shame because we are told the planets...the now known universe in fact, is going to be destroyed by fire

    this is a silly quote, but it is the serious error and misinterpretation as viewed from the particular poster, that reveals Swaggarts's attempt to whitewash his own sin and posit that we are all equally in the same boat with him

    we are not. we do not share Swaggart's guilt or bad conscience
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  9. #29
    Senior Member HeRoseFromTheDead's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

    Quote Originally Posted by 7seasrekeyed View Post
    the problem is that he does not read the Bible

    he reads the so called 'expositor's' Bible..the red letter edition...only in this one, the red letters are the words of Swaggart. his posts are rife with copy/pastes from that book. one could use the JW edition with as much effectiveness and truth

    Swaggart is prolific throughout his 'expositing' and as I pointed out in another thread, the comments are often enough just plain wrong as where he concluded that heaven is a planet north of earth. and, as I pointed out there, that would be a shame because we are told the planets...the now known universe in fact, is going to be destroyed by fire

    this is a silly quote, but it is the serious error and misinterpretation as viewed from the particular poster, that reveals Swaggarts's attempt to whitewash his own sin and posit that we are all equally in the same boat with him

    we are not. we do not share Swaggart's guilt or bad conscience
    I don't keep up with Swaggert, but I can't find anything wrong with a commentary he wrote that was copy/pasted into another thread. He was standing against the excesses of the faith movement when it first started. I was very impressed with an article he wrote on that 25-30 years ago.
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    This is the work of God: that you believe into the one [the father] set apart. John 6:29

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  10. #30
    Senior Member MessageOfTheCross's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

    Quote Originally Posted by 7seasrekeyed View Post
    I'm pretty sure this is against the TOS

    I reported it. I am wondering how much longer this poster is going to be allowed to mouth off at believers with this kind of false condemnation

    these Swaggart threads are what is oppressive

    Swaggart confessed in 1988 and in 1991 he was AGAIN caught with a prostitute and told people God told him to tell those who were again taken back, that it was none of their business

    someone said in another thread they believe Swaggart is a believer.

    I have to ask, does a believer continue in overt sexual practices that are in denial of the lives a believer is supposed live?

    let alone one who preaches to the world about sinful lives?

    the utter hypocrisy is beyond belief and so is his bizarre personal Bible with his comments in red as though they were the words of Jesus

    this is beyond just a disagreement...even a very heated one...this message from Swaggart is ANTI-the work of Christ and totally skews the word

    time to report this junk until it disappears. it's harmful and young believers or any believers IMO, do not need to address this to a poster who appears to believe he has some kind of authoritative backing here. he doesn't.

    this is false teaching being promoted by a false teacher who believes he is the only one who has the whole truth of scripture

    this is cultlike preaching by Swaggart and needs to be seen as such
    Matthew 6:14-16 New King James Version (NKJV)

    14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
    For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him Crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2

  11. #31
    Senior Member 7seasrekeyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

    Quote Originally Posted by MessageOfTheCross View Post
    Matthew 6:14-16 New King James Version (NKJV)

    14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
    I see

    so it is ok to just keep on sinning then?

    honestly, it is just really interesting the way you will change what you say depending on what is posted

  12. #32
    Senior Member Dino246's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

    Quote Originally Posted by 7seasrekeyed View Post
    I see

    so it is ok to just keep on sinning then?

    honestly, it is just really interesting the way you will change what you say depending on what is posted
    There's no danger of consistency here.
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  13. #33
    Senior Member 7seasrekeyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

    Quote Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead View Post
    I don't keep up with Swaggert, but I can't find anything wrong with a commentary he wrote that was copy/pasted into another thread. He was standing against the excesses of the faith movement when it first started. I was very impressed with an article he wrote on that 25-30 years ago.
    and just think

    25 or so years ago, he was visiting prostitutes

    standing against the excesses of the faith movement while comitting adultery, fornication and who knows what else

    I don't care what he was preaching. he was living a double life and someone who can do that while pretending to be 'all that' for Christ just is not an example to follow
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  14. #34
    Senior Member 7seasrekeyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

    Quote Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead View Post
    I don't keep up with Swaggert, but I can't find anything wrong with a commentary he wrote that was copy/pasted into another thread. He was standing against the excesses of the faith movement when it first started. I was very impressed with an article he wrote on that 25-30 years ago.

    maybe small potatoes here, in light of all the other aberrations in Swaggart's renderings, but what do you think of his saying that both God and the Holy Spirit have bodies?

    does scripture support that?

    does the word 'spirit' have some kind of double meaning?

  15. #35
    Senior Member HeRoseFromTheDead's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

    Quote Originally Posted by 7seasrekeyed View Post
    maybe small potatoes here, in light of all the other aberrations in Swaggart's renderings, but what do you think of his saying that both God and the Holy Spirit have bodies?

    does scripture support that?

    does the word 'spirit' have some kind of double meaning?
    No, that's weird.
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    Default Re: ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

    Quote Originally Posted by 7seasrekeyed View Post
    and just think

    25 or so years ago, he was visiting prostitutes

    standing against the excesses of the faith movement while comitting adultery, fornication and who knows what else

    I don't care what he was preaching. he was living a double life and someone who can do that while pretending to be 'all that' for Christ just is not an example to follow
    I was wrong about the date. The article was written 35-36 years ago. Here it is so you can judge for yourself.

    https://www.francesandfriends.com/js...osticism1.html
    https://www.francesandfriends.com/js...osticism2.html
    https://www.francesandfriends.com/js...osticism3.html
    This is the work of God: that you believe into the one [the father] set apart. John 6:29

    Interlinear Bible ... Interlinear LXX ... theWord ... Azal River (Zechariah 14:5) ... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  17. #37
    Senior Member HeRoseFromTheDead's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

    Quote Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead View Post
    I was wrong about the date. The article was written 35-36 years ago. Here it is so you can judge for yourself.

    https://www.francesandfriends.com/js...osticism1.html
    https://www.francesandfriends.com/js...osticism2.html
    https://www.francesandfriends.com/js...osticism3.html
    Part 3 appears to be screwed up. It has the right title, but the body of the article is about something else.
    This is the work of God: that you believe into the one [the father] set apart. John 6:29

    Interlinear Bible ... Interlinear LXX ... theWord ... Azal River (Zechariah 14:5) ... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  18. #38
    Senior Member 7seasrekeyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

    Quote Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead View Post
    I was wrong about the date. The article was written 35-36 years ago. Here it is so you can judge for yourself.

    https://www.francesandfriends.com/js...osticism1.html
    https://www.francesandfriends.com/js...osticism2.html
    https://www.francesandfriends.com/js...osticism3.html
    well I remember what you said previously regarding that, but how does that excuse his behavior?

    I mean it's pretty clear that our life is what testifies of our actual faith and not what we say. right?

    as it is, he apparently was involved with prostitutes for over 20 years when he was caught in '88...his own words

    how long did he entertain the thoughts before he acted on them?

    his life was a lie.

    as it is, his expository Bible is his own version much like the JW's have their own 'translation' different from everyone elses

    bit of a mess I think

    Swaggart also states, regarding his 'revelation' that no one else has seen what the sees and that it is directly from God

    in other words, no one but him has ever understood the cross...he literally says this

  19. #39
    Senior Member HeRoseFromTheDead's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

    Quote Originally Posted by 7seasrekeyed View Post
    well I remember what you said previously regarding that, but how does that excuse his behavior?

    I mean it's pretty clear that our life is what testifies of our actual faith and not what we say. right?

    as it is, he apparently was involved with prostitutes for over 20 years when he was caught in '88...his own words
    I really don't know anything about the man, and I don't care to know. He has to answer to GOD. From reading that article, he seemed to have good discernment and sound doctrine.
    7seasrekeyed likes this.
    This is the work of God: that you believe into the one [the father] set apart. John 6:29

    Interlinear Bible ... Interlinear LXX ... theWord ... Azal River (Zechariah 14:5) ... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    Default Re: ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

    Quote Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead View Post
    I really don't know anything about the man, and I don't care to know. He has to answer to GOD. From reading that article, he seemed to have good discernment and sound doctrine.

    we all do what we do before God without doubt

    since scripture states we shall know the validity of a person by their 'fruit' I think anyone claiming to be sent from God, as Swaggart claims, should have a life that exemplifies someone led by the Holy Spirit and not a spirit of lust

    as his expositor's Bible is his current expression of what he believes and full of contradictory interpretations with regards to context and so on, I would conclude he seems to be approaching cult status. he believes everyone but him is wrong and expresses that thought in the form of a supposed new revelation about the cross...which is really not new, however he has parked his camper there instead of going forward. according to him, no one has ever understood what he understands

    I would never give the man a 2nd thought and never did except for the posts springing up in the forum

    no questions allowed is not a good thing. telling people they are not saved etc, as the op does, is his opinion extracted from Swaggarts' Bible

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