Time and once saved

[preacher4truth]

Yes you are right it does seem absurd and disingenuous.

You're correct, and it is. It (your absurd scenario) is an assault and attack on the nature and character of God, and it came from your mind and shows how you feel about his nature and attributes.

But not quite as absurd and disingenuous as twisting scriptures to make them mean what you want them to, because our finite mind cannot otherwise make conflicting scriptures pair up in harmony.

And now you follow up your asinine, demeaning scenario with bearing false witness, ad hominem and a straw man.

 

[RickyZ]

You're correct, and it is. It (your absurd scenario) is an assault and attack on the nature and character of God, and it came from your mind and shows how you feel about his nature and attributes.



And now you follow up your asinine, demeaning scenario with bearing false witness, ad hominem and a straw man.

Yeah yeah yeah. Anger and attack are the last resort of those who's arguments have failed them.

Say hello to my little friend ... the ignore button.

 

[preacher4truth]

Yeah yeah yeah. Anger and attack are the last resort of those who's arguments have failed them.

Say hello to my little friend ... the ignore button.

No anger here, but I will stand against your false ideology that attacks the nature and character of God.

Let me put it in perspective: You've drawn up a scenario where "Bob" gets saved in time. But somehow God deletes him, then denies he ever knew him.

That is to make God a liar, a foolish designation, and a really foolish thing to say.

I think we as Christians can do way better than this.

Sticking to Scripture instead of drumming up absurdities that draw a false caricature of God would be one novel method.

The OP was designed to support one's errant view of losing salvation, thus the story of "Bob" with some false god tied to it that can essentially lie. It was utterly foolish. There is little fear of the God of Scripture when one goes against God's known attributes and character so casually and frankly arrogantly.

Don't like my stance for the God of Scripture? You can always put me on ignore.

 

[tourist]

.

God, in the eternal/hub, reaches out to time/the rim, and removes Bob's marker, which was the basis of His promise.

Bob was with us for 20 years. And yet, God is able to make it so he never was. And if he never was, he never had God's promise.

If this were true than God is a liar and there's no hope for any of us. Fortunately, God is not a liar but rather love.

 

[preacher4truth]

If this were true than God is a liar and there's no hope for any of us. Fortunately, God is not a liar but rather love.

Yes, amen, and thank you for seeing this as well. God bless.

 

[mailmandan]

Many think those in Luke 8:13 were saved and then lost their salvation. But is that true? Absolutely not! It clearly says they had "NO ROOT". So they NEVER were saved.

Amen! The shallow ground hearer is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was "not good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. People who hear and receive the word with joy (emotional response) and believe (in a shallow way) without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" do not experience real salvation.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root.." Problem from the start. Temporary shallow belief that was not firmly rooted or established from the start "has no root" represents rocky soil. Then we see the results: Temporary shallow belief that has no root, lacks moisture, produces no fruit and withers away.

In CONTRAST, we read in Matthew 13:23 - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

 

[RickyZ]

If this were true than God is a liar and there's no hope for any of us. Fortunately, God is not a liar but rather love.

Not entirely. The choice could be, God is a liar, or we humans don't understand Him.

I'm betting on the latter. Big time

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen to 1 John 3 and 2 Timothy 2...but I think we're overlooking a small but important detail in the example that I underlined in your post...

Do you suppose Peter still would have been saved from drowning if he never cried out asking to be saved?

"Eternal" means without beginning or end. So eternal security means there's no moment when one even has to ask to be saved.

1. yes i do, god had a job for peter to do, and as jesus promised, he will leave the whole flock to save one lost sheep. He will never leave us or fosake us, and he will never let us go.
2. Think about this for a minute, peter had faith in god to take a step of faith and walk on water, why would eter all of a sudden lose that faith and not call out not moments later, i think you belittle family the some if you think there was a chance peter never would have called out. He never would have taken the first step without some faith

 

[notuptome]

The contrary nature of man hinders him from allowing himself to forgive as God has forgiven. We continue to hold our sin against ourselves when God has hidden our sin behind His back never to see it again.

Our adversary uses our tendency to not forgive ourselves to keep us doubting the God has saved us and will never allow us to come under condemnation ever again.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[CS1]

CS1,

Thanks for posting this. I would "like" it but didn't because I don't want people to get the impression that I am a 'Calvinist'. Personally, I rather hate almost every label put on people...because labels seem only to blind us to the idea that the person we are talking to is a PERSON, not a DOCTRINE... And, as your post highlights to me at least, people who don't follow a particular doctrine probably don't realize what that doctrine really even says...so it's unlikely their label gives an accurate picture of either the person OR the doctrine.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

LOL thats Ok I do not need a like but i'm not a calvinst either lol bu they do try to recruit me a lot LOL

 

[preacher4truth]

Not entirely. The choice could be, God is a liar, or we humans don't understand Him.

I'm betting on the latter. Big time

This is why people who claim to be Sola Scriptura cannot be. We have a fellow here banking his soul on a absurd scenario where God can lie, but then it can be called something else. Sounds like what a democrat gone apostate would come up with. One cannot be Sola Scriptura when they bank their beliefs on something as asinine as the OP hypothesis that is outside of Biblical revelation and does not reflect the God of Scripture.

But I bet they'd still claim to be Sola Scriptura.

Let's see: God (according to Rickyzzz) can save someone, then delete that person, and pretend they never existed, then, they reappear at judgment to hear "Depart from me." And then God can say he never knew them. All this drummed uip nonsense because he cannot prove from Scripture person's lose salvation.

Soooo...they (people like Bob in the OP) were brought back into existence from non-existence, were saved, but were really never saved, knew God, but then someone bleached the server to erase that, so they didn't know God "really," even though they did live, but were deleted and some can pretend they never lived.

"god" can then lie about it and be called a just God while maintaining all of the nature, character and attributes of the God of Scripture. Then to top that off everyone who knew Bob, his testimony and existence were also either deleted, or had their hard drives reformatted so they wouldn't remember any of it.

Or something.

Oh, and Rickzzz says we don't understand God, a caveat thrown in there in attempt to lend credibility to his absurdity.

I will tell you this, for the record, I know God, and am known of God, and none of that nonsense is the God of Scripture.

That's a fact.

This type of nonsense needs to be withstood, thus my response and Rickyzzz can just continue to hide behind his ignore button.

Anyhow...just for good measure:

[video=youtube;NzlG28B-R8Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y[/video]

 

[RickyZ]

Are all the voices in your head angry?

 

[preacher4truth]

Are all the voices in your head angry?

Fully expected response as it obviously goes with the territory.

 

[preston39]

The OSAS debate consist mainly of endless repetitions of 3 points:



1. Once we are His, God will never let us go

2. There are those who have/will taste of salvation, and turn away

3. Those who tasted and turned away were never part of us.




It's easy to let numbers 1 and 3 over-rule number 2, and that's what OSAS proponents will do. But, dang it, ya just can't do that. You can. not. ignore those scriptures. You can't taste of without being part of. But the OSASers ask the right question, how could they be part of us while never being part of us? And how can someone walk away from God without violating God's promise to never let us go? It's hard to wrap one's mind around, thus all the either-or debate.


I floated an idea in another thread about how that could be. I was challenged on it and have been doing my homework. Like so many things Biblical I found scriptures that grouped together to say two different things. So I put it out to you guys for input.

It has to do with time. And the question of whether God is constrained to time. I posted a thread asking when did time start, is that an eternal thing or a created thing http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/165496-when-did-time-start.html . That led to a poll, asking whether God was constrained to time or free to come and go in time as He pleased http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/165542-time-eternity.html . Those who responded seemed to think that He can come and go as he pleases. The OP of the poll details how that might work, but the jist is that eternity and time are like a wheel, God/eternity existing in the hub can like randomly inserted spokes reach out and act (in our view) in any point in time, at (in God's point of view) any time. With the example being that God can do something with us now, and then go do something that to us is already past.

In other words, God has the ability to do what we would call time-travel.



W'atsa this got to do with OSAS you say.


And that goes back to what I proposed in the earlier thread.


God's sitting in the hub/eternal and watches Bob pray the sinner's prayer on the rim/time. So God puts a marker in time, so to speak, and says from this point onward I will never let you go. So Bob lives on several years. For decades he's part of us, involved and even bringing others to Christ. You can't get much more part of us than that. But then he gets caught up in the world and backslides. He's living in sin but God holds on. But Bob sinks farther. satan and the world take hold of his heart, and Bob gets maneuvered into a place of having to reaffirm Christ. Having lost his true love, he denies God and stops believing.

God, in the eternal/hub, reaches out to time/the rim, and removes Bob's marker, which was the basis of His promise.

Bob was with us for 20 years. And yet, God is able to make it so he never was. And if he never was, he never had God's promise.

R...,

G-d's promise to never let us go must be kept in context;

1) G-d will not let us go after being deemed ..."saved"...(after His final review and declaration) for eternal salvation.

2) Prior.... while on this earth we can negate our commitment and G-d has nothing to do with it because WE have defaulted. He didn't do it...WE did.

There is no way one can play ..."gotcha"...with G-d's' resolve.

 

[preston39]

God doesn't do time travel, rather time is within Him. He is the future and the past (with regards to created things).

On OSAS, i have never thought of debating this issue because i'll admit it- i don't know, but i'll state here what i know:

1. Salvation is not a result of some prayer. The sinners prayer is not a thing. When people say "..i was saved on this date, in this year..blah bla blah...", i know they lie without even trying.

2. Saved- The word itself is in past tense, so an indicator that it is the result of a process and at the very end is when it happens.

3. Salvation comes when one believes in the heart and confesses with their mouth that Jesus is Lord- the process starts there and the end result is salvation.

N...,

Pretty good up until #3...for clarity;

Salvation is received when, upon final review, G-d proclaims...."saved"....'enter and receive eternal salvation'.

Prior to that time Christians are in a repented status living righteously according to G-d's law.

 

[RickyZ]

2 Peter 2, in context

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[SUP]a[/SUP]putting them in chains of darkness[SUP]b[/SUP] to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh[SUP]c[/SUP] and despise authority.Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from[SUP]d[/SUP] the Lord. 12But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[SUP]e[/SUP] 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer,[SUP]f[/SUP] who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.17These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[SUP]g[/SUP] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”


Now, there is no way anyone can make this say the opposite of what it says and be honest with themselves or God. So, again, taking all scripture AT FACE VALUE we have to come up with some way that people can be saved then give it away without violating Gods promise, and making it seem as tho they never were. I offered up one theory, that's all it is, people, jeez take a valium before ya come here will ya? But honestly, however cockamamie you may think my theory is, it sin't as cockamamie as saying the above does not say what it says.

 

[preston39]

.................
Now, there is no way anyone can make this say the opposite of what it says and be honest with themselves or God. So, again, taking all scripture AT FACE VALUE we have to come up with some way that people can be saved then give it away without violating Gods promise, and making it seem as tho they never were. I offered up one theory, that's all it is, people, jeez take a valium before ya come here will ya? But honestly, however cockamamie you may think my theory is, it sin't as cockamamie as saying the above does not say what it says....

R...,

With respect...your posed question makes no sense...really;

Who wants to recuse themselves of G-d's offer for eternal salvation?
If they did there is a means available...just stop being righteous and return to sin. G-d will not stop you because He give us free will.

So .... why are you looking for another avenue?

Keep in mind...we are not..."saved"...until G-d passes final judgement and declares that as our final status.

 

[RickyZ]

R...,

With respect...your posed question makes no sense...really;

Who wants to recuse themselves of G-d's offer for eternal salvation?
If they did there is a means available...just stop being righteous and return to sin. G-d will not stop you because He give us free will.

So .... why are you looking for another avenue?

Keep in mind...we are not..."saved"...until G-d passes final judgement and declares that as our final status.

Well, that is another possible explanation... altho one I don't particularly agree with but hey I could be wrong!

 

[LW97]

Psalm 89 sounds like a strong promise to me Read it yourself

 

[LW97]

Well, that is another possible explanation... altho one I don't particularly agree with but hey I could be wrong!

We neither teach a God who condones sin, nor a God who stops being our father everytime we fail.