Religion hides God knowledge with doctrines

[Blik]

When Christ, Paul, or Moses spoke to us they spoke of the truths of the Lord. Our religions put out church doctrines that are man made interpretations of the truth they spoke of.

For example OSAS is based on biblical truths yet by insisting on putting God's truth into their own words they manage to distort the truth. Bible teaches there is a wonderful thing that happens when God saves us and we receive His grace. We are changed at that time. Bible teaches also a lot about obedience and walking within the kingdom of God. In the bible it does not say one ever wipes out the other. Our salvation is left to the Holy God in scripture, we are in charge of our walk. OSAS tries to hide this fact.

Doctrine tells us Christ changed what God established, Christ didn't fulfill it so all He did was based and told of before He came to us in the flesh. The world was told what Christ's blood would do as it was told of the shedding of innocent blood of animals for their atonement. Doctrine tells us Christ changed it all when we are to not use animal blood any longer but the blood of Christ.

I could go on and on about the church doctrines and how they obscure God's truth so often.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I could go on and on about the church doctrines and how they obscure God's truth so often.

Since God's truth = Bible doctrines, why don't you access Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and look up the word "doctrine"?

Churches can only present Bible doctrines, so you have created a straw man and are now attacking it. As though you do not have any doctrines yourself.

While you're at it, you might want to change your username to B-I-L-K since that would be more appropriate.

 

[wattie]

Yes funny how people get on the horse about the word 'doctrine'

The bible itself is full of doctrine!

Anyway, I do get that there are heaps and heaps of interpretations out there that don't let the bible interpret itself, but the bible studied as it is.. interpreting itself.. in context.. effectively IS 'doctrine'

 

[Blik]

The discussion this thread should bring up is to explore different church teachings to see if they are teaching about God or not. It seems to me that exploring the meaning of the word doctrine used to present the problem is not helping us think through what the thread wants explored.

 

[graceNpeace]

The discussion this thread should bring up is to explore different church teachings to see if they are teaching about God or not. It seems to me that exploring the meaning of the word doctrine used to present the problem is not helping us think through what the thread wants explored.

Well, it is clear that you haven't thought through what you are trying to say...
Both the title of the thread and the OP is very poor!
And, given the last thread that you started it appears that it is YOUR doctrine that requires some work - so rather than criticise the doctrine of others perhaps some self-reflection would help...

 

[LaurieB]

[QUOTE=Blik;3547443]The discussion this thread should bring up is to explore different church teachings to see if they are teaching about God or not. It seems to me that exploring the meaning of the word doctrine used to present the problem is not helping us think through what the thread wants explored.[/QUOTE]

Thank you Blik. Sounds like you are spiritually mature and on the right path. God Bless You.
LaurieB

 

[LaurieB]

[QUOTE=graceNpeace;3547456]Well, it is clear that you haven't thought through what you are trying to say...
Both the title of the thread and the OP is very poor!
And, given the last thread that you started it appears that it is YOUR doctrine that requires some work - so rather than criticise the doctrine of others perhaps some self-reflection would help...[/QUOTE]


This is a great example of what the earlier poster was sayng about attacking a brother in Christ WITHOUT really understanding what he was sayng.

 

[graceNpeace]

This is a great example of what the earlier poster was sayng about attacking a brother in Christ WITHOUT really understanding what he was sayng.

How sure are you that I do not understand what the OP is saying?
Actually I understand all too well...

 

[Johnny_B]

Blik and LauireB my Sister's since you are the doctrine experts maybe you can help with this.

Did the Father lay sins on Christ of people that will never be saved?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Doctrine simply means instruction. Without doctrine we wouldn't know how to follow Christ.

The problem with doctrine occurs when men ignore the whole counsel of GOD and create their own teachings using parts of the whole and the traditions of men and human wisdom. Then the holy spirit departs, and the only thing holding everything together are these sterile frameworks of false teachings formalized as doctrines of religion that kill and don't give life. This should make every believer tremble.

‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far away from me, and they worship me in vain, teaching [as] doctrines the commandments of men.’*” Matthew 15:8-9​

 

[Depleted]

When Christ, Paul, or Moses spoke to us they spoke of the truths of the Lord. Our religions put out church doctrines that are man made interpretations of the truth they spoke of.

For example OSAS is based on biblical truths yet by insisting on putting God's truth into their own words they manage to distort the truth. Bible teaches there is a wonderful thing that happens when God saves us and we receive His grace. We are changed at that time. Bible teaches also a lot about obedience and walking within the kingdom of God. In the bible it does not say one ever wipes out the other. Our salvation is left to the Holy God in scripture, we are in charge of our walk. OSAS tries to hide this fact.

Doctrine tells us Christ changed what God established, Christ didn't fulfill it so all He did was based and told of before He came to us in the flesh. The world was told what Christ's blood would do as it was told of the shedding of innocent blood of animals for their atonement. Doctrine tells us Christ changed it all when we are to not use animal blood any longer but the blood of Christ.

I could go on and on about the church doctrines and how they obscure God's truth so often.

Actually, that's not true about OSAS. There is biblical truth behind it, but it's no one's doctrine.

The phrase came from arguing over a couple sides on a long-established argument between followers of Calvin and followers of Arminius. (And the weird part of this was both men had already died before this argument broke out.)

Arminius followers were very against salvation through Christ alone, so they came up with a fight song, sort of. They said Calvin said that there was no way to become unsaved, (which there isn't, but there is always the question of is someone truly saved, which can only be shown through the perseverance of that salvation.) So, rather than argue that, they simply said Calvinists believe, "Once Saved Always Saved."

500 years later, and despite being successfully refuted, it is still chanted by the ones who hate it. It's something like the abortionists shouting, "A woman has the right to her own body." Absolutely no one refutes that either, and yet, any sane person knows the unborn baby is not "her own body."

So, it's not now nor ever has been "doctrine" for anyone.

Kind of good to know what doctrine is, so we can then judge if we agree with it or not.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

The discussion this thread should bring up is to explore different church teachings to see if they are teaching about God or not. It seems to me that exploring the meaning of the word doctrine used to present the problem is not helping us think through what the thread wants explored.

well go for it

which one in particular rubs you the wrong way?

let's have a look at that bad buncha words

I do have a question though.

if you do not care to understand what doctrine is to begin with, how will we know when you start dissing it?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Arminius followers were very against salvation through Christ alone, so they came up with a fight song, sort of.

Although I am neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian, I will simply say that Depleted has misrepresented what the Arminians taught. So here is what they believe according to the Five Articles of the Remonstrants:

That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son before the foundation of the world, has determined that out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath and to condemn them as alienated from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that does not believe the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Did the Father lay sins on Christ of people that will never be saved?

Of course. With a doubt. Why would anyone even ask such a question in the light of Scripture?

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29)

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2).

We could add dozens of Scriptures to these.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

lol lol lol...and haha

 

[Depleted]

I usually ignore Neh, because his "doctrine"/agenda is to hate on people who disagree with him, and mostly he follows me around to do this. BUT just wanted people to recognize how he does this.

Notice I said it was an argument from the followers of these two men that broke out after both men were dead. Any rational person could figure out that means it couldn't be an argument BY either of the men, since dead men don't argue. And obviously there was stuff being argued about that pertained to what both men said. (In both cases, what they said was written, so with effort you can find it still.)

So, once again, (and this is his MO most of the time), Neh has once again lied about what I said to prove how important he is and pretends it is no big deal because he is neither. Which is obviously another lie, since if it's no big deal to him, he also wouldn't be chasing me (and other Calvinists) around this forum to refute with his lies.

Just get very tired of his game.

Although I am neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian, I will simply say that Depleted has misrepresented what the Arminians taught. So here is what they believe according to the Five Articles of the Remonstrants:

 

[FlSnookman7]

lol lol lol...and haha

I would love to tell you about my time in exile and how Jesus delivered me from it. Just like the jews in the desert, I find the greatest challenge is to believe I have indeed been set free, not by anything I did but as per God's plan for me. Just like He says in Jeremiah 29.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I would love to tell you about my time in exile and how Jesus delivered me from it. Just like the jews in the desert, I find the greatest challenge is to believe I have indeed been set free, not by anything I did but as per God's plan for me. Just like He says in Jeremiah 29.

uh huh

but that is not what that particular passage speaks about because I had a 7 year exile from 20 to 27 which totally put my life off track and caused tremendous suffering.

so yeah, but please don't take the opportunity here to say I don't believe God does not have plans for us...both the kind He has for everyone...such as salvation...and the kind he bestows personally as we grow in the knowledge of Him

you know very well what the meme is about...and no. you were never in actual exile. you will know when and if that happens though because you will be dragged out of your home, put in line and marched off to a foreign country where you will be enslaved and used and abused

and also would be good to remember that this happened to the Israelites because of their DISOBEDIENCE to God

so, when someone says God delivered them from an exile of their OWN MAKING, such as you would describe, that is actually not an exile

which is not to say comparisons cannot be made, but no...neither you nor I have been in actual exile. lessons to be learned from the OT still

 

[Johnny_B]

The discussion this thread should bring up is to explore different church teachings to see if they are teaching about God or not. It seems to me that exploring the meaning of the word doctrine used to present the problem is not helping us think through what the thread wants explored.

Okay since you brought up OSAS in your OP, here is what happens with people that have a problem with OSAS is they do not understand that they are justified by and before God and they do not understand what justifcation is. It simply means that a person is found not guilty of their sins, they still have the sin in their body, but being justified God does not count their sin against them anymore. So we by the Holy Spirit and in cooperation with God work out our salvation with fear and trembuling in the sanctification process. But lets look at our justification.

Titus 3:3-8a is a great Bible truth in the ESV, then the J.B. Phillips Translation and the Amplified Bible to bring out the Greek meaning.

“For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. 4But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8aThe saying is trustworthy”

Phillips Translation 3-8a “For we ourselves have known what it is to be ignorant, disobedient and deceived, the slaves of various desires and pleasant feelings, while our lives were spent in malice and jealousy—we were hateful and we hated each other. But when the kindness of God our saviour and his love towards man appeared, he saved us—not by virtue of any moral achievements of ours, but by the cleansing power of a new birth and the moral renewal of the Holy Spirit, which he gave us so generously through Jesus Christ our Saviour. The result is that we are acquitted by his grace, and can look forward to inheriting life for evermore. This is solid truth.”

Amplified Bible “For we too once were foolish, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various sinful desires and pleasures, spending and wasting our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. 4But when the goodness and kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared [in human form as the Man, Jesus Christ], 5He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we have done, but because of His own compassion and mercy, by the cleansing of the new birth (spiritual transformation, regeneration) and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6whom He poured out richly upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that we would be justified [made free of the guilt of sin] by His [compassionate, undeserved] grace, and that we would be [acknowledged as acceptable to Him and] made heirs of eternal life [actually experiencing it] according to our hope (His guarantee). 8aThis is a faithful and trustworthy saying”

We are born again because of the Father's own compassion and mercy and we are made fee of the guilt of sin, by His compassionate, undersred grace. We still have sin in our lives, but becasue of His mercy or pity for us, He sets us free of the guilt of sin, we are not sinless only free from the guilt, this is our justification. Once a person is justified from any charge against them they can not be charged with it again, that would be double jeopardy. God the Father would be an unrighteous Judge if He would charge us again for our sins that we are not guilty of by His grace, not by any work of righteousness that we can do.

This is why people that do not understand God's mercy and saving grace, think that they can lose thier salvation because they do not understand God's justification of the guilt of our sins. Because He justifies us the ungodly and they do not work but believe, thier sin is not counted against them, remembering that the one that works for their salvation it is not a gift and salvation is a gift of God.

Romans 4:4-8 ESV “Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

J.B. Phillips Translation “Now if a man works his wages are not counted as a gift but as a fair reward. But if a man, irrespective of his work, has faith as righteousness, then that man’s faith is counted as righteousness, and that is the gift of God. This is the happy state of the man whom God accounts righteous, apart from his achievements, as David expresses it: ‘Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin’.”

Amplified Bible “Now to a laborer, his wages are not credited as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation [something owed to him]. 5But to the one who does not work [that is, the one who does not try to earn his salvation by doing good], but believes and completely trusts in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited to him as righteousness (right standing with God). 6And in this same way David speaks of the blessing on the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:7 “Blessed and happy and favored are those whose lawless acts have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered up and completely buried.
8 “Blessed and happy and favored is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account nor charge against him.”

For those that are saved not by anything they can do, their faith is counted as righteousness.

 

[FlSnookman7]

uh huh

but that is not what that particular passage speaks about because I had a 7 year exile from 20 to 27 which totally put my life off track and caused tremendous suffering.

so yeah, but please don't take the opportunity here to say I don't believe God does not have plans for us...both the kind He has for everyone...such as salvation...and the kind he bestows personally as we grow in the knowledge of Him

you know very well what the meme is about...and no. you were never in actual exile. you will know when and if that happens though because you will be dragged out of your home, put in line and marched off to a foreign country where you will be enslaved and used and abused

and also would be good to remember that this happened to the Israelites because of their DISOBEDIENCE to God

so, when someone says God delivered them from an exile of their OWN MAKING, such as you would describe, that is actually not an exile

which is not to say comparisons cannot be made, but no...neither you nor I have been in actual exile. lessons to be learned from the OT still

Perhaps, but do you not agree that while those verses refer to a specific people at a specific time they also refer to almost all of us? That is one of the things I find so amazing about the Word. The Word crosses time, actually to say the Word is timeless is probably a better choice of words. God speaks to us through His Word because His Word is fitting not only for all time but for our specific circumstance.

How great is our God!