Do We Have To Keep The Law?

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,647
13,121
113
((totally side-tracks thread))



Hmm,, I find this quite fascinating indeed, thanks for the read I enjoyed it :)

ain't it though???!! it's amazing

twelve steps, and here we are in the middle of the process.

(1) He chose us
(2) Christ paid a price for us
(3) we were betrothed to Him
(4) we gave our consent
(5) we drank the cup
(6) He gave us gifts
(7) we were cleansed
(8) the Groom departed

now we're on step 9, waiting for the Groom - who will come at a day and hour set by the Father

(10) He will snatch us away
(11) we will be made one with Him
(12) then, finally, "
the marriage supper of the Lamb"



i'm really surprised that this isn't taught/preached on way more often than it is - i only heard it from a couple of obscure preachers. which makes me wonder how accurate is this? i need a Jew who knows about the ancient customs to confirm, plz. but if you search for "
12 step Hebrew betrothal" you'll find some links, mostly among messianic Jews, Hebrew-roots, and replacement-theology ppl..
 
L

LPT

Guest
((totally side-tracks thread))






ain't it though???!! it's amazing

twelve steps, and here we are in the middle of the process.

(1) He chose us
(2) Christ paid a price for us
(3) we were betrothed to Him
(4) we gave our consent
(5) we drank the cup
(6) He gave us gifts
(7) we were cleansed
(8) the Groom departed

now we're on step 9, waiting for the Groom - who will come at a day and hour set by the Father

(10) He will snatch us away
(11) we will be made one with Him
(12) then, finally, "
the marriage supper of the Lamb"



i'm really surprised that this isn't taught/preached on way more often than it is - i only heard it from a couple of obscure preachers. which makes me wonder how accurate is this? i need a Jew who knows about the ancient customs to confirm, plz. but if you search for "
12 step Hebrew betrothal" you'll find some links, mostly among messianic Jews, Hebrew-roots, and replacement-theology ppl..
hmm twelve steps interesting I like it.

I was thinking about the marriage in your last post, something struck me what you said.

And this came to mind (the wedding in Cana), the master of the banguet didn't know were the wine came from but said to the groom you have saved the best for last. I don't know why but I've been thinking about that event and what you mentioned the two might not have any connection at all but I just thought it was intersting.
 
L

LPT

Guest
((totally side-tracks thread))






ain't it though???!! it's amazing

twelve steps, and here we are in the middle of the process.

(1) He chose us
(2) Christ paid a price for us
(3) we were betrothed to Him
(4) we gave our consent
(5) we drank the cup
(6) He gave us gifts
(7) we were cleansed
(8) the Groom departed

now we're on step 9, waiting for the Groom - who will come at a day and hour set by the Father

(10) He will snatch us away
(11) we will be made one with Him
(12) then, finally, "
the marriage supper of the Lamb"



i'm really surprised that this isn't taught/preached on way more often than it is - i only heard it from a couple of obscure preachers. which makes me wonder how accurate is this? i need a Jew who knows about the ancient customs to confirm, plz. but if you search for "
12 step Hebrew betrothal" you'll find some links, mostly among messianic Jews, Hebrew-roots, and replacement-theology ppl..
Indeed I did a search and I've read this about the ancient marriage customs, a good read I thought.

Marriage of the Lamb is in accordance with ancient Jewish Marriage Customs
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
Yeah, They are.

The law. Thou shalt mot murder" will not stop people from committing murder It not only is a sin, but is a law in every country, some even have the death penalty. Yet people still murder. so much for laws causing sinners to stop sin.



you want to save a murderer, show him love, Better yet show him Gods love, you not only may win friend, you may win a brother in christ,


it may not stop all murders on the planet but if you grow up in a world that does not teach its wrong to kill others, how would you ever know its wrong?
and i still dont get why its offensive to be told its wrong to go out and kill people.

Judging them? Again, Jesus said he did not come to judge, what makes you better than Jesus?
i never judged anyone.
why would i think i am better than Jesus? is this a result of following the example of Jesus, that example would be following the law.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,647
13,121
113
hmm twelve steps interesting I like it.

I was thinking about the marriage in your last post, something struck me what you said.

And this came to mind (the wedding in Cana), the master of the banguet didn't know were the wine came from but said to the groom you have saved the best for last. I don't know why but I've been thinking about that event and what you mentioned the two might not have any connection at all but I just thought it was intersting.

((which makes post think, ))

'the glory of the latter houses, much greater than the former ones'
 
L

LPT

Guest

((which makes post think, ))

'the glory of the latter houses, much greater than the former ones'
Quite the profound message thank you brother, you couldn't have been more spot on. :)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
[/B][/COLOR]

it may not stop all murders on the planet but if you grow up in a world that does not teach its wrong to kill others, how would you ever know its wrong?
and i still dont get why its offensive to be told its wrong to go out and kill people.
there is a difference between teaching people the sanctity of life and how precious it is hen to post laws which condemn people.

I am sorry you can not see the difference

i never judged anyone.
why would i think i am better than Jesus? is this a result of following the example of Jesus, that example would be following the law.
anytime you put the ten commands up you are judging people, because the law curses everyone who has not obeyed every word.

Rom 1says the lost know they are condemnd, they need love, not judgment.

 
J

jaybird88

Guest
there is a difference between teaching people the sanctity of life and how precious it is hen to post laws which condemn people.

I am sorry you can not see the difference
so when the Father made a law against going after other gods, gods that taught people to sacrifice little kids, He did this because He wanted to condemn His people? why not just remove the laws and let them go after the other gods and condemn themselves.

anytime you put the ten commands up you are judging people, because the law curses everyone who has not obeyed every word.

Rom 1says the lost know they are condemnd, they need love, not judgment.
so when Jesus set the example by following those laws, He was judging people and showing how one is cursed by following these laws? where is the scripture where Jesus says He is cursed for following His Fathers laws?
and there is no passage that says you are judging others by following the example of Jesus.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,998
113
How can an unbeliever do any sort of "good" works? Believers are the workmanship of God and do good works only through the Holy Spirit in them.

Unbelievers do works, but that is what they are: works -- Unbelievers do not do good works.

That's basically what my point is, our works only justify us before men, not before God.

If works are the measuring stick as to whether one is truly saved or not, we would have to conclude Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., are exceptional Christians.

(Which, of course, they are not)

The unconverted can follow the Ten Commandments, do good works, and totally fool people like Ralph.

The Bible even talks about those people in Matthew 7:22-23:

"On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many wonderful works in your name?’And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ "
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,363
12,877
113
The unconverted can follow the Ten Commandments, do good works, and totally fool people like Ralph.
There's no need for ad hominem remarks. Only God knows Ralph's heart, and Ralph appears to be genuine and sincere.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,363
12,877
113
anytime you put the ten commands up you are judging people, because the law curses everyone who has not obeyed every word.
But this is only half the truth. And it is not "you" but "God" who is doing the judging.

The other half is that (a) the Ten Commandments are written on the hearts and minds of believers by the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant, and (b) the Ten Commandments are embedded in the Law of Christ.

Christians need to be extremely careful about how they handle Bible truth, since there are many seekers and non-believers who are searching for the truth.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,998
113
I don't buy into your religion that Jesus told this woman to do something she was incapable of doing. I do, however, see that it is perfectly in line with scriptures that there would be religious folks who would tell her she couldn't.
Okay, just to be clear, are you saying you believe that women never committed a single sin after Jesus told her to go and sin no more?
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,998
113
There's no need for ad hominem remarks. Only God knows Ralph's heart, and Ralph appears to be genuine and sincere.
Noted. Now please advise Ralph of the same.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
The Bible even talks about those people in Matthew 7:22-23:

"On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many wonderful works in your name?’And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ "
the passage says only those that do the will of the Father, whats the will of the Father? wouldnt the will of the Father be the example of Jesus, didnt He obey the laws?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,229
6,526
113
Why are you so desperate? Is exp laing something to someone else "pointng back at me?" I feel sorry for you. There are many praying for yo to come around, until then you cannot be helped unless you settle down and recognize Christ's teachings and not these strange doctrines you assert, such as OSAS.

I really would like you to be in the Kingdom with all. God bless you.

So should we call you a judiaser? An arminian? A pharisee? As you said, if it is white and comes in a bottle or as i like to say, if the shoe fits.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,229
6,526
113
Perhaps I should elaborate on my response. You are owed that to some degree.

Jesus Christ is a Jew in the purest sense of the word when fully translated. You do not know this.

He is King of the Jews; again, here Jews according to the true meaing of Jew or Judah from the lips of Leah.

We are all joined to Israel and fellow heirs accofding to Paul.

My earnest desire is to pass on the teaching of a Jew, Jesus Christ, and I always make His teaching my reference because
God has invited us all to learn of Him because His yoke is eay and His burden is light.

Jesus was called Yeshua by friends and family which may be translated fully "The Redeemer of God." That is the meaning.

You do not understand that we are by translation, Jews, simply because we Praise God, not because we have a certain bloodline, excepting the Blood of the Lamb of God.

Appasrently you do not want to be a praiser of Yahweh, God. You prefer some obscure teaching OSAS which is farthest from the teaching of Paul or Jesus.

Now if all the above is being aJudaizer, then I am proud to wer the label, but if you thing Ipasson teaching from Jesus Christ that dictates we are to be under the law, as you like to say, and we are sav ed by our own manifestations of works and not those of God, you either do notunderstand English or you ae deliberately attempting to assissinate the charater of all who know Jesus and His free gift.

Now, you want to pick and choose from this post and change its meaning, go ahead, you never stopped before.

So should we call you a judiaser? An arminian? A pharisee? As you said, if it is white and comes in a bottle or as i like to say, if the shoe fits.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
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What does God Judge by?

1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.








Mat_12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Mat_16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


Jas_2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

One could keep going and going.

The bible is clear from start to finish that we are judged by our works. Solomon said:

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

This is true. The key is understanding how one is saved by faith only Yet judged by works. They are not at odds unless your theology is out.

When you can accept the revelation of Scripture that we are saved by grace through faith and not works. Yet we are judged by our works.

Only then do you understand the Good news as it is in Jesus Christ.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,229
6,526
113
I have always understood people judge themselves.

I judged myself when I realized I form a component of mankind and the world
in this age and it is all evil.

Realizing God is all mighty and good, Iturned to Him giving Him all the glory
and nothing to do with me or my world at that time. I judged myself unworthy, and
He gave me the Blood of the Lamb making me righteousn becaue of Jesus christ,
never because of anything I could do.

Praise Göd almighty........all Praise God, amen.
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
63
Perhaps I should elaborate on my response. You are owed that to some degree.

Jesus Christ is a Jew in the purest sense of the word when fully translated. You do not know this.

He is King of the Jews; again, here Jews according to the true meaing of Jew or Judah from the lips of Leah.

We are all joined to Israel and fellow heirs accofding to Paul.

My earnest desire is to pass on the teaching of a Jew, Jesus Christ, and I always make His teaching my reference because
God has invited us all to learn of Him because His yoke is eay and His burden is light.

Jesus was called Yeshua by friends and family which may be translated fully "The Redeemer of God." That is the meaning.

You do not understand that we are by translation, Jews, simply because we Praise God, not because we have a certain bloodline, excepting the Blood of the Lamb of God.

Appasrently you do not want to be a praiser of Yahweh, God. You prefer some obscure teaching OSAS which is farthest from the teaching of Paul or Jesus.

Now if all the above is being aJudaizer, then I am proud to wer the label, but if you thing Ipasson teaching from Jesus Christ that dictates we are to be under the law, as you like to say, and we are sav ed by our own manifestations of works and not those of God, you either do notunderstand English or you ae deliberately attempting to assissinate the charater of all who know Jesus and His free gift.

Now, you want to pick and choose from this post and change its meaning, go ahead, you never stopped before.
This post just shows how incredibly blinkered you are!

New covenant believers are NOT, by translation, Jews!
Never, ever, ever!

Lets review some facts:
Yes, Jesus was born a Jew and lived like one during His life on earth.
Yes, He ministered almost exclusively to Jews during His lifetime on earth, in fact, the ones He was really ministering to was not really Jews as an ethnic group but rather a small select group of Jews.
Yes, when He was crucified, Herod ordered a plaque put on His cross with inscription "King of the Jews" in several languages.

However.....
Jesus Christ was both Lord and Creator of the heavens and the earth, and the creator of man BEFORE Jews ever existed!
The Abrahamic covenant, which is an eternal covenant, was never just about Jews.
Most Jews have no comprehension of this, and neither, it seems do you!
The Jewish nation was meant to be a facilitator of God's blessings to the nations (all the non-Jewish non-Israelite ethnicities) but with a couple of interesting exceptions it largely failed in this regard.
Ultimately, of course, Jesus Christ, born a Jew, was that blessing!

Was, Jesus' mission on earth misunderstood - you bet your boots it was!
Never mind all those who stood in opposition to Him - they had no interest in trying to figure it out - but His own specially called disciples spent most of their lives not really getting it!
Peter himself, is one most often mentioned, throughout the Gospels as well as through into the Acts of the Apostles, as well as several Epistles, Galatians is prominent in this regard for NOT understanding the larger purpose of the incarnation of Jesus Christ!

He definitely got the bits about Jesus mission to the Jews but never really fully got where the Gentiles fitted in...
After the day of Pentecost, now filled with the Holy Spirit, Peter and the rest get stuck into evangelising the Jews of Jerusalem, as well as those of the Diaspora who happened to be in Jerusalem at the time....
Weeks turn into months and no attempt is made to move from Jerusalem to "the nations".
Instead it takes mounting persecution, culminating in the murder of Stephen, before even SOME of the now Apostles eventually move to evangelise away from Jerusalem! Peter and James (the brother of Jesus) are noteworthy for seldom if ever leaving Jerusalem voluntarily!

Several very unsubtle object lessons, starting with his visions about unclean food with the subsequent interaction with Cornelius and culminating with him being publicly rebuked for hypocrisy by Paul, are required for Peter to really understand that not only are Gentiles NOT required to become Jews in order to be New covenant believers but that Jews themselves are not required to live as Jews as New covenant believers either!

It really took Saul of Tarsus, later named Paul, a Rabbi tutored by none other than Gamaliel, to understand and discern, with his deep knowledge, not only of the Torah, but of the prophets and the wisdom writings, that the New covenant was not limited to the Jewish nation and that the New covenant made no demand on believers to adopt Jewish laws and customs...

No JEWISH believer that I know (limited subset to be sure) regards themselves as bound by the Torah, and they all definitely understand that the New covenant makes absolutely no demands on Gentile believers to follow ANY Jewish laws or customs.

I understand that everything that I have written is completely unpalatable to you, and other Hebrew Roots acolytes, but the entire epistles of Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews, as well as the narrative of the Acts of the Apostles, with Acts chapter 15 detailing the Jerusalem Council as its centrepiece, and the epistle to the Hebrews, make it absolutely and unequivocally and bluntly clear that New covenant believers are not required to Jews in any way in oder to be New covenant believers!

Jesus Christ is not merely King of the Jews!
He is instead, properly, Lord of all creation, as well as, by standing invitation, the Saviour of all mankind!
Our access to Jesus Christ is by grace through faith, certainly NOT by trying to imitate any ethnic group, including the Jews!
And, the purpose of being a New covenant believer is NOT to become a Jew!

(Disclaimer: Hebrews Roots acolytes often invoke accusations of anti-Semitism in order to defend their beliefs against those who correctly refute them. Therefore I will make it publicly known that I am NOT as anti-Semite. I have known many thousands of Jews, and have befriended many in my lifetime - some were Messianic Jews and some were not. I went to a High School in South Africa where about 40% of the students were Jewish as well as a university that was swarming with Jewish students - especially in my faculty! My very best friend was a Messianic Jew! And he would agree with what I have written above..)
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,229
6,526
113
Nice, call people names in stead of learning.

Since you cannot get beyond the Tribes and their names, I will need to inform yo where you are lacking.

When Leah gave birth to Judah, she names his such because she was overjoyed that God had delivered her another child, a son.

Leah declared,now I will praise Yahweh for this. Thus, ergo, resulting in..........the name Juidah, Praiser or Praising Yah........

Yahweh is the name used for God much of the time in the Old Testament and in quotes of itin the New.

No one has said we are Jews as pertaining to the number of denominations which cropped up since Christ, for Jew is not a denomination except since Christ.

I use the word for its meaning, and all who come to Christ are Jews by definition of the word.

It is a pity you have a compulsion to label others with your pthy names in place of hearing them..

Now praise God Like a good person of His flock........


This post just shows how incredibly blinkered you are!

New covenant believers are NOT, by translation, Jews!
Never, ever, ever!

Lets review some facts:
Yes, Jesus was born a Jew and lived like one during His life on earth.
Yes, He ministered almost exclusively to Jews during His lifetime on earth, in fact, the ones He was really ministering to was not really Jews as an ethnic group but rather a small select group of Jews.
Yes, when He was crucified, Herod ordered a plaque put on His cross with inscription "King of the Jews" in several languages.

However.....
Jesus Christ was both Lord and Creator of the heavens and the earth, and the creator of man BEFORE Jews ever existed!
The Abrahamic covenant, which is an eternal covenant, was never just about Jews.
Most Jews have no comprehension of this, and neither, it seems do you!
The Jewish nation was meant to be a facilitator of God's blessings to the nations (all the non-Jewish non-Israelite ethnicities) but with a couple of interesting exceptions it largely failed in this regard.
Ultimately, of course, Jesus Christ, born a Jew, was that blessing!

Was, Jesus' mission on earth misunderstood - you bet your boots it was!
Never mind all those who stood in opposition to Him - they had no interest in trying to figure it out - but His own specially called disciples spent most of their lives not really getting it!
Peter himself, is one most often mentioned, throughout the Gospels as well as through into the Acts of the Apostles, as well as several Epistles, Galatians is prominent in this regard for NOT understanding the larger purpose of the incarnation of Jesus Christ!

He definitely got the bits about Jesus mission to the Jews but never really fully got where the Gentiles fitted in...
After the day of Pentecost, now filled with the Holy Spirit, Peter and the rest get stuck into evangelising the Jews of Jerusalem, as well as those of the Diaspora who happened to be in Jerusalem at the time....
Weeks turn into months and no attempt is made to move from Jerusalem to "the nations".
Instead it takes mounting persecution, culminating in the murder of Stephen, before even SOME of the now Apostles eventually move to evangelise away from Jerusalem! Peter and James (the brother of Jesus) are noteworthy for seldom if ever leaving Jerusalem voluntarily!

Several very unsubtle object lessons, starting with his visions about unclean food with the subsequent interaction with Cornelius and culminating with him being publicly rebuked for hypocrisy by Paul, are required for Peter to really understand that not only are Gentiles NOT required to become Jews in order to be New covenant believers but that Jews themselves are not required to live as Jews as New covenant believers either!

It really took Saul of Tarsus, later named Paul, a Rabbi tutored by none other than Gamaliel, to understand and discern, with his deep knowledge, not only of the Torah, but of the prophets and the wisdom writings, that the New covenant was not limited to the Jewish nation and that the New covenant made no demand on believers to adopt Jewish laws and customs...

No JEWISH believer that I know (limited subset to be sure) regards themselves as bound by the Torah, and they all definitely understand that the New covenant makes absolutely no demands on Gentile believers to follow ANY Jewish laws or customs.

I understand that everything that I have written is completely unpalatable to you, and other Hebrew Roots acolytes, but the entire epistles of Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews, as well as the narrative of the Acts of the Apostles, with Acts chapter 15 detailing the Jerusalem Council as its centrepiece, and the epistle to the Hebrews, make it absolutely and unequivocally and bluntly clear that New covenant believers are not required to Jews in any way in oder to be New covenant believers!

Jesus Christ is not merely King of the Jews!
He is instead, properly, Lord of all creation, as well as, by standing invitation, the Saviour of all mankind!
Our access to Jesus Christ is by grace through faith, certainly NOT by trying to imitate any ethnic group, including the Jews!
And, the purpose of being a New covenant believer is NOT to become a Jew!

(Disclaimer: Hebrews Roots acolytes often invoke accusations of anti-Semitism in order to defend their beliefs against those who correctly refute them. Therefore I will make it publicly known that I am NOT as anti-Semite. I have known many thousands of Jews, and have befriended many in my lifetime - some were Messianic Jews and some were not. I went to a High School in South Africa where about 40% of the students were Jewish as well as a university that was swarming with Jewish students - especially in my faculty! My very best friend was a Messianic Jew! And he would agree with what I have written above..)