Do We Have To Keep The Law?

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Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,998
113
#1
What does the New Testament say about it?

If we are under the Law, we are not led by the Spirit. (Galatians 5:18)

Christ is the end of the Law (Romans 10:4)

No one is justified by the works of the Law (Galatians 2:16)

It has been abolished (Ephesians 2:15)

The Law is not for the Righteous. (1 Timothy 1:8, Galatians 2:21, Romans 3:20)

We can't keep it (James 2:10)

Not even the Jews could (Galatians 6:13)

The Law and faith do not mix (Romans 3:27-28)

If we rely on observing the Law we place ourselves under a curse (Galatians 3:10-11)

The Law is a curse that Jesus redeemed us from (Galatians 3:13)

If we continue in the Law we are fools (Galatians 3:2-3)

We are to live by faith, which the Law is not based on (Galatians 3:11-12)

The Law is lifeless (Galatians 3:21)

The Law only makes us prisoners (Galatians 3:23-25)

We become alienated from Christ (Galatians 5:4)

The Law is weak and makes nothing perfect (Hebrews 7:18-19)

It can never take away sins (Hebrews 10:4)

Paul said he himself was not under the Law (1 Corinthians 9:20)

We have been released from the Law (Romans 7:6)

The Law has been canceled and nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14)

We are dead to the Law (Romans 7:4)

It is obsolete, outdated, and will disappear (Hebrews 8:13)

We have been justified apart from the Law (Romans 3:21-22, 27-28)

We are under grace, not the Law (Romans 6:14)


Clear enough? :)
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,176
2,537
113
#2
It is true that as silly as it is we humans cannot keep ten simple laws perfectly but you cannot simply toss the law in the trash his commandments are just as important as they were back then we just are not under a heavy burden from it. I mean would you worship idols? would you steal and kill? would you be unfaithful? Even Jesus fulfilled the law he even says specifically Mathew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
1,282
57
48
#3
no we cant, but the spirit in us can. the law was only given to expose sin nature and to try and contain it but the opposite happened. sin took the law and brought all manner of sinfulness through us.

but by the spirit and the transforming of the mind and the Crucifixion of the flesh His spirit enables us to walk the law of love, that is greater.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,998
113
#4
It is true that as silly as it is we humans cannot keep ten simple laws perfectly but you cannot simply toss the law in the trash his commandments are just as important as they were back then we just are not under a heavy burden from it. I mean would you worship idols? would you steal and kill? would you be unfaithful? Even Jesus fulfilled the law he even says specifically Mathew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
And He did fulfill the Law's requirements. All of them. That's why we don't have to
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,176
2,537
113
#5
And He did fulfill the Law's requirements. All of them. That's why we don't have to
I hope I am not misunderstanding but if i am I apologize, are you saying we shouldn't obey law at all?
 

ljs

Member
Jan 13, 2018
310
443
63
#6
@ Budman , excellent !!
But you realize im sure that some still wont get it , and will somehow wiggle the law back in with grace :(
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
#7
I hope I am not misunderstanding but if i am I apologize, are you saying we shouldn't obey law at all?
no no no
lol

brother,
he is saying that no flesh shall be justified by the law

and that it is not the righteousness of a born again son/daughter that will save them

but the righteousness of Jesus
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
#8
no no no
lol

brother,
he is saying that no flesh shall be justified by the law

and that it is not the righteousness of a born again son/daughter that will save them

but the righteousness of Jesus
Just a short bump... I posted this earlier in another thread

James 2:10 - For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

(unless you kept kept of the law entirely at every point, you are guilty as any other law breaker)



1 John 3:4 - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


(this isnt just about laws given to moses.... this applies even to ALL sin...... which means)


Romans 3:20 - 25
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


_______________

praise God.... freely justified by His grace through faith in Jesus Christ


without the deeds of the law
^_^

but
......
what of the law then?

_________________

romans 7


6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

_______________


Galatians 3:24-25
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


__________

Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:



Philippians 3:9
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith

(also my signature ;) )
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
#9
What does the New Testament say about it?

If we are under the Law, we are not led by the Spirit. (Galatians 5:18)

Christ is the end of the Law (Romans 10:4)

No one is justified by the works of the Law (Galatians 2:16)

It has been abolished (Ephesians 2:15)

The Law is not for the Righteous. (1 Timothy 1:8, Galatians 2:21, Romans 3:20)

We can't keep it (James 2:10)

Not even the Jews could (Galatians 6:13)

The Law and faith do not mix (Romans 3:27-28)

If we rely on observing the Law we place ourselves under a curse (Galatians 3:10-11)

The Law is a curse that Jesus redeemed us from (Galatians 3:13)

If we continue in the Law we are fools (Galatians 3:2-3)

We are to live by faith, which the Law is not based on (Galatians 3:11-12)

The Law is lifeless (Galatians 3:21)

The Law only makes us prisoners (Galatians 3:23-25)

We become alienated from Christ (Galatians 5:4)

The Law is weak and makes nothing perfect (Hebrews 7:18-19)

It can never take away sins (Hebrews 10:4)

Paul said he himself was not under the Law (1 Corinthians 9:20)

We have been released from the Law (Romans 7:6)

The Law has been canceled and nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14)

We are dead to the Law (Romans 7:4)

It is obsolete, outdated, and will disappear (Hebrews 8:13)

We have been justified apart from the Law (Romans 3:21-22, 27-28)

We are under grace, not the Law (Romans 6:14)


Clear enough? :)

Funny thing here, you did not quote the MEssiah a single time.

John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

"iniquity" is: #0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459
Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law 1a) because ignorant of it1b) because of violating it, 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

Ohh and you quoted James, but it seems very selectively.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:8-12, “If you truly accomplish the sovereign Law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you do well, but if you show partiality, you commit sin, being found guilty by the Law as transgressors. For whoever shall guard all the Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” (Exo 20:14) also said, “Do not murder.” (Exo 20:13) Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of Law. So speak and so do as those who are to be judged by the Law of liberty.”

John:

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Yahanan /John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”

and some more of the Messiah:

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and the Belief of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 22:11-15, “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy, let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart. And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood.”[/FONT]

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Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63
#10
The sacrificial laws were fulfilled in, by and through Jesus Christ. We no longer have to keep those laws. But thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not covet, etc. those are commands that are still in effect and are reiterated in the NT.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
#11
Christ is the end of the Law (Romans 10:4)

Clear enough? :)
This is for you, I will show why after:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 Peter/Kepha 3:15-17, "and reckon the patience of our Master as deliverance, as also our beloved brother Paul/Sha’ul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him, as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these matters, in which some are hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the other Scriptures. You, then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch, lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the delusion of the lawless, but grow in the favor and knowledge of our Master and Savior [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Messiah. To Him be the esteem both now and to a day that abides. Awmiĕn.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]We can not earn Salvation by only obedience to the Law of the Creator, as James said and as Yahshua Himself said it takes YHWH’s mercy and our faith and works. Romans 10:4 is a verses mistranslated in the majority of Bibles thus blurring the lines of truth. Christ is not “the end of the Law” but rather Yahshua showed the intent, ultimate result or goal (telos) of keeping the Law of YHWH.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The word translated “end” is word#G5056, τέλος, telos, tel'-os[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid):—+ continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Lets look at places this word is used in the Konie Greek originals to get an idea of it meaning and context;[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Peter 1:9, "Receiving the ultimate result (telos) of your faith – the salvation of your souls."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If the its the end of the Law aka Law is done away or at an end in Romans 10:4 then faith must also be done away or at an end in 1 Peter 1:9. Unless of course “telos” means the goal.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #G5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 5:11, “Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 5:11, “See, we call those blessed who endure. You have heard of the endurance of Iyoḇ and saw the purpose (telos) of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[FONT=Times New Roman, serif], that He is very sympathetic and compassionate.”[/FONT][/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end (telos) of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the goal (telos) of this command is love from a clean heart, from a good conscience and a sincere belief.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 6:22, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end (telos) everlasting life.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 6:22, “But now, having been set free from sin, and having become servants of Yah, you have your fruit resulting in set-apartness, and the goal (telos); everlasting life.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The word is used in the sense of the end result, the goal, the outcome, not in the sense of the obliteration of the Law…[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5-7, " But the goal* of our instruction/command is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*goal is word #G5056 télos - Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.[/FONT]
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
#12
What does the New Testament say about it?
The final point I would like to make:

New Testament you say?

Here:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”

but it seems many do not have them written in their hearts but are in open rebellion.
[/FONT]
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
887
7
18
#13
It is true that as silly as it is we humans cannot keep ten simple laws perfectly but you cannot simply toss the law in the trash his commandments are just as important as they were back then we just are not under a heavy burden from it. I mean would you worship idols? would you steal and kill? would you be unfaithful? Even Jesus fulfilled the law he even says specifically Mathew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
The law is good. And that good to know and informative about God but, it doesn’t help anyone fulfill it.
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
887
7
18
#14
A basic and rather stupid mistake to make is to think the commandments of Jesus are the commandments of Moses.

Do you want to be free and able to please Jesus? Well you’ll never do it wishfully daydreaming about fulfilling the letter of the law of Moses.

And God isn’t pleased with a man that says he loves God, and loves his laws, but refuses to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, and his new commandments.

Here is one one Jesus’ new commandments...

John 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word,then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Thou shalt continue in the word of Jesus Christ.

Do that and you’ll end up free and able to please God, forever.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
#15
A basic and rather stupid mistake to make is to think the commandments of Jesus are the commandments of Moses.

Do you want to be free and able to please Jesus? Well you’ll never do it wishfully daydreaming about fulfilling the letter of the law of Moses.

And God isn’t pleased with a man that says he loves God, and loves his laws, but refuses to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, and his new commandments.

Here is one one Jesus’ new commandments...

John 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word,then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Thou shalt continue in the word of Jesus Christ.

Do that and you’ll end up free and able to please God, forever.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 11:27-30, "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father. And no one fully knows the Son except the Father, neither does anyone fully know the Father, except the Son and those whom YHWH wills the Son to reveal. Come to Me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light"[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."[/FONT]
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#16
And He did fulfill the Law's requirements. All of them. That's why we don't have to
This does not explain why Paul said the fellow in the Corinthian Church was to keep the law of Moses in regard to not sleeping with his Father's wife:


there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife."-1 Corinthians 5:1


"Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife"-Leviticus 18:8



Christ did not fulfill ALL the requirements of the law for us so that we don't have to do any of them. Yes, there are those laws that no longer require literal keeping by the people of God anymore. But we must keep the one's that the work of Christ on the cross did not make obsolete and unneeded anymore.


What you do not have to do is keep all of the law of Moses TO BE JUSTIFIED.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
113
#17
This does not explain why Paul said the fellow in the Corinthian Church was to keep the law of Moses in regard to not sleeping with his Father's wife:


there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife."-1 Corinthians 5:1


"Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife"-Leviticus 18:8



Christ did not fulfill ALL the requirements of the law for us so that we don't have to do any of them. Yes, there are those laws that no longer require literal keeping by the people of God anymore. But we must keep the one's that the work of Christ on the cross did not make obsolete and unneeded anymore.


What you do not have to do is keep all of the law of Moses TO BE JUSTIFIED.
Paul didn't say follow the law of Moses. His doctrine taught no sexual immorality of any kind.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#18
The law is good. And that good to know and informative about God but, it doesn’t help anyone fulfill it.
That is true. The law itself has no power to help us keep it. In this New Covenant, we fulfill the law through the power of the new way of faith in Christ, not in the old powerless way of mere written words (Romans 7:6).


Faith in Christ applies the finished work of Christ to us so that various laws no longer must be literally kept by us. Christ's work making those laws obsolete and unneeded now (animal sacrifices, etc.). And faith in Christ gives us the power of the Spirit to keep the laws that remain to be literally fulfilled by us.
 
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R

Ralph-

Guest
#19
Paul didn't say follow the law of Moses. His doctrine taught no sexual immorality of any kind.
Even when shown to people, they can't accept that the New Testament teaches the keeping of the law of Moses (the parts that remain to be literally kept by us). That's how deep and entrenched the false teaching is in the church that we don't have to keep any of the law of Moses. You can thank our early Catholic forefathers for that indoctrination.
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
887
7
18
#20
That is true. The law itself has no power to help us keep it. In this New Covenant, we fulfill the law through the power of the new way of faith in Christ, not in the old powerless way of mere written words (Romans 7:6).
Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Dead men are free of the law.
And whoever serves in the newness of spirit is keeping the new commandments.
Which are not the old commandments.

Faith in Christ applies the finished work of Christ to us so that various laws no longer must be literally kept by us. Christ's work making those laws obsolete and unneeded now (animal sacrifices, etc.). And faith in Christ gives us the power of the Spirit to keep the laws that remain to be literally fulfilled by us.
Your reasoning is not scriptural.

The new commandments are not the old commandments. And the new commandments of Jesus aren’t old laws that fit your notion of various commandments that remain, either.