Are Mormon claims of the miraculous as valid as others?

[DJ2]

Are we to judge the validity of claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit by which group does the claiming? Many dismiss Mormon claims of raising the dead, healing the sick, giving sight to the blind and speaking in tongues as fraudulent, while giving a pass to the claims of more accepted groups. It seems that any group claiming such abilities should be held to the same level of scrutiny.

Simply put, are all claims the same?

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

Are we to judge the validity of claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit by which group does the claiming? Many dismiss Mormon claims of raising the dead, healing the sick, giving sight to the blind and speaking in tongues as fraudulent, while giving a pass to the claims of more accepted groups. It seems that any group claiming such abilities should be held to the same level of scrutiny.

Simply put, are all claims the same?

Judas was baptizes. Judas baptizes others., Judas was anointed. Judas was empowered. Judas cast out Devils. Judas healed the sick. Judas preached the gospel. Was Judas saved? Or did He go to hell?
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Matthew 7:21-23 King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that does the will of My Father which is in Heaven.[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, you that work iniquity.​

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[Bladerunner]

Are we to judge the validity of claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit by which group does the claiming? Many dismiss Mormon claims of raising the dead, healing the sick, giving sight to the blind and speaking in tongues as fraudulent, while giving a pass to the claims of more accepted groups. It seems that any group claiming such abilities should be held to the same level of scrutiny.

Simply put, are all claims the same?

The Mormon Church has been labeled a "Cult". It is as good as it is going to get, especially with all those little god babies running around?

 

[Johnny_B]

Are we to judge the validity of claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit by which group does the claiming? Many dismiss Mormon claims of raising the dead, healing the sick, giving sight to the blind and speaking in tongues as fraudulent, while giving a pass to the claims of more accepted groups. It seems that any group claiming such abilities should be held to the same level of scrutiny.

Simply put, are all claims the same?

​Yes they should all be held to the same standard, as far as I am concerned they all need to bring the paperword to prove it. I was part of a movement that claim limbs growing and the dead being raised in China. So I asked to see the video or paperwork and was marked as a rebel.

 

[BenFTW]

Aren't you just critical of the supernatural in general, a Cessationist? So are you just trying to invalidate many true Christian's supernatural experiences by comparing them to a cult? Is that your goal here?

 

[Johnny_B]

Judas was baptizes. Judas baptizes others., Judas was anointed. Judas was empowered. Judas cast out Devils. Judas healed the sick. Judas preached the gospel. Was Judas saved? Or did He go to hell?
​

Matthew 7:21-23 King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that does the will of My Father which is in Heaven.[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, you that work iniquity.​

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Judas was never saved and he did go to hell. John 17:12 "While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled."

Luke 22:3 "Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve." People that belong to the Lord cannot have satan enetr them.

 

[Lewiz]

Mormon's claims of such are not valid because they don't have the Spirit of God.

 

[Adstar]

Are we to judge the validity of claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit by which group does the claiming? Many dismiss Mormon claims of raising the dead, healing the sick, giving sight to the blind and speaking in tongues as fraudulent, while giving a pass to the claims of more accepted groups. It seems that any group claiming such abilities should be held to the same level of scrutiny.

Simply put, are all claims the same?

No .. Not all claims are the same..
Some are true some are false..
True Claims are more valid then false claims..

 

[Desdichado]

Are Mormon claims even provable/falsifiable?

There are Hindu miracle workers and Shamanist miracle workers whose miracles are either word-of-mouth rumors, parlor tricks, or well-timed natural phenomenon.

On the rare occasion such "miracles" do occur (regardless of the invokee), you can reliablybet on them being demonic.

 

[BenFTW]

​Yes they should all be held to the same standard, as far as I am concerned they all need to bring the paperword to prove it. I was part of a movement that claim limbs growing and the dead being raised in China. So I asked to see the video or paperwork and was marked as a rebel.

Anyone can offer you an apple, but if it was a wicked witch, would you still take a bite? Might want to make sure what you're being fed, could be something poisonous. Likewise, claims of supernatural phenomena from cults shouldn't be scrutinized in the same way actual Christian churches' (tenets of the faith maintained) claims of supernatural acts are.

This is like equating Jesus on water with Criss Angel (an illusionist) on water. One is the Truth, and the other deception. Both may technically be on water, but what lies beneath is truly revealing. Healing points to Christ, and the love of God, not to a religion that puts people in chains, feeds them lies, and distorts the truth in such a way that it is another gospel.

 

[Mel85]

Galatians 1:6-9 ESV

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

 

[tanakh]

I am very cautious about believing any reported Miracle from anywhere. Hearsay seems to play a big part in it all.

 

[Didymous]

Are we to judge the validity of claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit by which group does the claiming? Many dismiss Mormon claims of raising the dead, healing the sick, giving sight to the blind and speaking in tongues as fraudulent, while giving a pass to the claims of more accepted groups. It seems that any group claiming such abilities should be held to the same level of scrutiny.

Simply put, are all claims the same?

Mormonism is a cult. Remember in Exodus How Moses did miracles in front of Pharaoh-then his wise men, sorcerors, and magicians also did something similar. As what pharaoh's people did was not of God, it must have been of the devil. If the Mormons have anything miraculous going on, it must be of the devil.

 

[Mel85]

Please don’t get sucked into Mormonism; Joseph Smith who wrote the book of Mormon claimed that he received revelations from God and that God told him to write the book of Mormon - which contradicts the Holy Bible.

Joseph Smith believes that Lucifer is the brother of Jesus, that’s blasphemy.

 

[Didymous]

Please don’t get sucked into Mormonism; Joseph Smith who wrote the book of Mormon claimed that he received revelations from God and that God told him to write the book of Mormon - which contradicts the Holy Bible.

Joseph Smith believes that Lucifer is the brother of Jesus, that’s blasphemy.

The angel Moron, I

 

[Didymous]

Just like Geico has moron car insurance.

 

[mailmandan]

Judas was never saved and he did go to hell. John 17:12 "While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled."

Luke 22:3 "Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve." People that belong to the Lord cannot have satan enetr them.

Amen! In Matthew 10:1, we see that Jesus gave His 12 disciples power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. This would include Judas Iscariot, yet Jesus referred to Judas Iscariot as an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him! (John 6:71; 13:10-11). Apparently, Judas believed that Jesus' name has the power to cast out demons but did not truly believe in His name (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was the son of perdition (John 17:12).

 

[jb]

Are Mormon claims of the miraculous as valid as others?​

Mormonism is a cult, the God they worship is NOT the God that true Christians (those who are washed in the Blood of the Lamb) worship, any miracles that the Mormon Church claim are of a Satanic origin!

In these last days, the Lord Jesus taught that there would be a great increase in lying signs, wonders and miracles done by the servants of Satan, and (true) Christians need to be discerning about the origin off the power doing these lying signs. Matt 24v15-25, 2Thess 2v1-12, 1Tim 4v1,2, 2Tim 3v1-9, 1John 2v27, 4v1-6, Rev chapter 13 (all).

Christians in these last days, really need to get close to the Lord Jesus and get His anointing to answer these lying signs, wonders and miracles, the Lord Jesus is the Eternal Lord of Glory and He is able to infinity FAR out-miracle demons or Satan! Dan 11v32, Rev 11v3-6.

NOW is the time to get close to the Lord Jesus! Heb 2v17,18, 4v15, 7v25, James 4v6-8.

 

[DJ2]

Aren't you just critical of the supernatural in general, a Cessationist? So are you just trying to invalidate many true Christian's supernatural experiences by comparing them to a cult? Is that your goal here?

Aren't you just critical of the supernatural in general

By no means am I critical of the supernatural, as a Christian it is understood that God Himself is supernatural. The OP is about claims of the supernatural

a Cessationist?

I am neither Cessationist nor Non-Cessationist. A cessationist is one that believes the Bible proclaims the end of the age of the miraculous and a return to faith without sight. A non-cessationist is one that believes the Bible proclaims that the age of the miraculous never ended. The key difference is the issue of believing what is proclaimed. The cessationist vs. non-cessationist is a false dichotomy. With the exception of 1st Cor. 13:8 the Bible is rather silent on when the miraculous was to end. My mind and heart is open to the continuance of the miraculous, but by its very nature your view should be self-evident.

So are you just trying to invalidate many true Christian's supernatural experiences by comparing them to a cult?

The physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit cannot be invalidated by mere comparison. As a non-cessationist you should welcome such scrutiny and not balk at being held to the same standard. The miraculous of the 1st century was not defended by hearsay or youtube clips but the miraculous itself.

And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.”He stretched it out, and his hand was restored. Mark 3:5

The miraculous is not to be proven but to prove.

Is that your goal here?

My goal is to give those who believe that we are still living in an age of the miraculous an opportunity to show how different their claims are compared to the claims of other groups.

I have answered you three questions, now answer me. What is your goal in balking against the OP instead of simply presenting a cogent defence for what should be prima facie?





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[DJ2]

Judas was baptizes. Judas baptizes others., Judas was anointed. Judas was empowered. Judas cast out Devils. Judas healed the sick. Judas preached the gospel. Was Judas saved? Or did He go to hell?
​

Matthew 7:21-23 King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that does the will of My Father which is in Heaven.[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, you that work iniquity.​

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Is it not possible that since there is nothing prima facie about their claims are simply bogus? Maybe?