Images Yes or No

Metternich · Apr 26, 2018

We all know Ex 20:4
4 “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

It seems pretty straight forward. But God commands in Ex 25:22 that two cherubim be placed on top of the Ark of the Covenant.
Ex 25:22
22 There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you of all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel.

In Num 21:8-9 God commands a fiery serpent be be put on a staff so that any one who looks at it will be saved from the serpents.
Num 21:8-9
8 And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.

Is it against Gods law to take a photograph? Is it wrong to paint a picture of flowers?

Or is the key Ex 20:5 Do not bow down to it and serve it. That is my interpretation. You can make any kind of image as long as you do not think it will do anything for you.

blue_ladybug · Apr 26, 2018

Well, IMO, no it's not wrong to take a picture or draw one. I have pics of alot of animals, and some of celebrities..

Tina2018 · Apr 26, 2018

Metternich said:

We all know Ex 20:4
4 “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

It seems pretty straight forward. But God commands in Ex 25:22 that two cherubim be placed on top of the Ark of the Covenant.
Ex 25:22
22 There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you of all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel.

In Num 21:8-9 God commands a fiery serpent be be put on a staff so that any one who looks at it will be saved from the serpents.
Num 21:8-9
8 And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.

Is it against Gods law to take a photograph? Is it wrong to paint a picture of flowers?

Or is the key Ex 20:5 Do not bow down to it and serve it. That is my interpretation. You can make any kind of image as long as you do not think it will do anything for you.

Is it wrong to take a picture? No.
Is it wrong to draw a picture? No.
Is it wrong to put ur hope in a drawing or picture? Yes
Is it wrong to believe that something human hands made has the ability to help or save you? Yes

Studyman · Apr 27, 2018

Metternich said:

Very good topic.

I think the key is in the text.

Ex. 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Image means "Hebrew" = tselem, "to shade"; a phantom, ie; illusion, resemblance, hence a representative figure,esp. an idol:- image, vain show.

It says don't make them, don't serve them, don't bow down to them, which I would also interpret as "don't acknowledge them" don't "condone them", don't "partake" of them.

I find it interesting that this is the first and greatest Commandment, yet through "MANY" who come in Christ's name, we have a universal "Image" of what the "Representative figure" of a "Christian" God looks like.

Not in my house thank you very much.

Good topic.

Didymous · Apr 27, 2018

Studyman said:

Very good topic.

I think the key is in the text.

Ex. 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Image means "Hebrew" = tselem, "to shade"; a phantom, ie; illusion, resemblance, hence a representative figure,esp. an idol:- image, vain show.

It says don't make them, don't serve them, don't bow down to them, which I would also interpret as "don't acknowledge them" don't "condone them", don't "partake" of them.

I find it interesting that this is the first and greatest Commandment, yet through "MANY" who come in Christ's name, we have a universal "Image" of what the "Representative figure" of a "Christian" God looks like.

Not in my house thank you very much.

Good topic.

Yeah, that picture of the white looking guy so many churches have hanging on the wall. Does anyone really think Jesus looked like that?

Studyman · Apr 27, 2018

Didymous said:

I think religious man has created images of their version of a god for a long time. Paul even speaks to it in Romans 1.

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

It's almost as if Paul is speaking about the mainstream Christian church of today. Not a popular topic.

Metternich · Apr 27, 2018

Studyman said:

Very good topic.

I think the key is in the text.

Ex. 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Image means "Hebrew" = tselem, "to shade"; a phantom, ie; illusion, resemblance, hence a representative figure,esp. an idol:- image, vain show.

It says don't make them, don't serve them, don't bow down to them, which I would also interpret as "don't acknowledge them" don't "condone them", don't "partake" of them.

I find it interesting that this is the first and greatest Commandment, yet through "MANY" who come in Christ's name, we have a universal "Image" of what the "Representative figure" of a "Christian" God looks like.

Not in my house thank you very much.

Good topic.

I would be interested in your thoughts about God's command to fashion the cherubim and the bronze serpent. It seems they would be forbidden.

Metternich · Apr 27, 2018

Studyman said:

Also what are your thoughts on photographs and paintings. I ran across a customer of my company who would not allow her photograph be taken because it was making an image.

trofimus · Apr 27, 2018

"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

Did the ancient Jews believe that dry land is floating on the waters like Babylonians did?

Zmouth · Apr 27, 2018

Didymous said:

Oh my gosh no, he is even whiter than the visible white light, but that shouldn't be no secret even if one hasn't seen the Father, not that anyone hath seen the Father save him who is of God, but it is written" At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me." (See Acts 26:13)

Metternich said:

Is it straight forward, the LORD is referring unto man making an imaginary or symbolic image of him.

16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:
19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
Deuteronomy 4:16-19

Metternich said:

In a situation where you have tens of ten thousands of people on the move, it would be almost impossible to find somebody, like a mobile hospital where medical treatment was available, in a timely manner. Since the effects of poisonous venom dictate the necessity of expedient treatment, even if one knew the general area where it should be it located, it would be easy to become disoriented while moving through them. Then try finding it at night, hence the 'fiery' because at night cold blooded reptiles love to curl up with warm body at rest, and strikes the warm body in motion.

Since the Hebrews didn't know how to read and write the written spoken word since the LORD had only revealed it to Moses shortly before then, so the knowledge hadn't yet been disseminated to them (See Duet 29:29). So it wouldn't make much sense to write a sign which said "Snake Bites treated Here" and placing it on a pole since they wouldn't know what it meant, if they could even see it a night.

But here is a question if you think that it was a supernaturally healing, do you believe that they were healed by their faith or by their works?

Then Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Mark 2:17

Metternich · Apr 27, 2018

Zmouth said:

Oh my gosh no, he is even whiter than the visible white light, but that shouldn't be no secret even if one hasn't seen the Father, not that anyone hath seen the Father save him who is of God, but it is written" At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me." (See Acts 26:13)

Is it straight forward, the LORD is referring unto man making an imaginary or symbolic image of him.

16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:
19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
Deuteronomy 4:16-19

In a situation where you have tens of ten thousands of people on the move, it would be almost impossible to find somebody, like a mobile hospital where medical treatment was available, in a timely manner. Since the effects of poisonous venom dictate the necessity of expedient treatment, even if one knew the general area where it should be it located, it would be easy to become disoriented while moving through them. Then try finding it at night, hence the 'fiery' because at night cold blooded reptiles love to curl up with warm body at rest, and strikes the warm body in motion.

Since the Hebrews didn't know how to read and write the written spoken word since the LORD had only revealed it to Moses shortly before then, so the knowledge hadn't yet been disseminated to them (See Duet 29:29). So it wouldn't make much sense to write a sign which said "Snake Bites treated Here" and placing it on a pole since they wouldn't know what it meant, if they could even see it a night.

But here is a question if you think that it was a supernaturally healing, do you believe that they were healed by their faith or by their works?

Then Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Mark 2:17

I would say they were saved by their faith.

Zmouth · Apr 27, 2018

trofimus said:

I[FONT=&quot] asked a friend who has a Babylonian friend if they believed the dry land is floating on the waters and he said that he didn't have a clue where anyone got that idea from so do you have a source you can quote for that claim?

I wondered if someone was going to bring that up seeing that it is written that the fishes are in the 'waters' beneath the earth and the passage cited uses 'water'. It is a interesting topic to discuss except when a person doesn't know that they don't know, since a person who doesn't know that they don't know can't know until they acknowledge to themselves that they really don't know. Once a believer knows that they don't know something, it is only then they by faith they truly begin to come to the knowledge of the truth. (see John 3:12 and John 15:22)[/FONT]

trofimus · Apr 27, 2018

Zmouth said:

I[FONT="] asked a friend who has a Babylonian friend if they believed the dry land is floating on the waters and he said that he didn't have a clue where anyone got that idea from so do you have a source you can quote for that claim?

I wondered if someone was going to bring that up seeing that it is written that the fishes are in the 'waters' beneath the earth and the passage cited uses 'water'. It is a interesting topic to discuss except when a person doesn't know that they don't know, since a person who doesn't know that they don't know can't know until they acknowledge to themselves that they really don't know. Once a believer knows that they don't know something, it is only then they by faith they truly begin to come to the knowledge of the truth. (see John 3:12 and John 15:22)[/FONT]

Todays people of Iraq have no relevance

We are talking about ancient Babylonia, Summer and Asyria.

I am looking for some sources, I will create a new discussion about it, later.

Didymous · Apr 27, 2018

Zmouth said:

Oh my gosh no, he is even whiter than the visible white light, but that shouldn't be no secret even if one hasn't seen the Father, not that anyone hath seen the Father save him who is of God, but it is written" At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me." (See Acts 26:13)

Is it straight forward, the LORD is referring unto man making an imaginary or symbolic image of him.

16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:
19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
Deuteronomy 4:16-19

In a situation where you have tens of ten thousands of people on the move, it would be almost impossible to find somebody, like a mobile hospital where medical treatment was available, in a timely manner. Since the effects of poisonous venom dictate the necessity of expedient treatment, even if one knew the general area where it should be it located, it would be easy to become disoriented while moving through them. Then try finding it at night, hence the 'fiery' because at night cold blooded reptiles love to curl up with warm body at rest, and strikes the warm body in motion.

Since the Hebrews didn't know how to read and write the written spoken word since the LORD had only revealed it to Moses shortly before then, so the knowledge hadn't yet been disseminated to them (See Duet 29:29). So it wouldn't make much sense to write a sign which said "Snake Bites treated Here" and placing it on a pole since they wouldn't know what it meant, if they could even see it a night.

But here is a question if you think that it was a supernaturally healing, do you believe that they were healed by their faith or by their works?

Then Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Mark 2:17

You may not have understood the tense of my question, but what you're referring to is Paul seeing Jesus AFTER he went to the cross, so I'm sure He looked different then.

Studyman · Apr 27, 2018

It’s not an image of God is it? Not like the image of the long haired men’s hair shampoo model they call Jesus. Or the golden calf.

Wouldn’t that be significant?

jaybird88 · Apr 27, 2018

Metternich said:

We all know Ex 20:4
4 “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

It seems pretty straight forward. But God commands in Ex 25:22 that two cherubim be placed on top of the Ark of the Covenant.
Ex 25:22
22 There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you of all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel.

In Num 21:8-9 God commands a fiery serpent be be put on a staff so that any one who looks at it will be saved from the serpents.
Num 21:8-9
8 And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.

Is it against Gods law to take a photograph? Is it wrong to paint a picture of flowers?

Or is the key Ex 20:5 Do not bow down to it and serve it. That is my interpretation. You can make any kind of image as long as you do not think it will do anything for you.

IMO its wrong to make an image that you believe represent a real being in the heavens. the greeks made statues of their gods, when they made an image of Zeus they didnt believe the statue was him, they believed it represented him.

Zmouth · Apr 27, 2018

Didymous said:

My bad, I thought you were referring unto 2 Cor 5:16 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."

Not sure about Jesus looking different since it is written in Luke 24:39, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

Didymous · Apr 27, 2018

Zmouth said:

Yeah, that last bit is a good point. I guess maybe Paul needed a more intense look at the Lord-maybe to burn the scales off his eyes, as it were.

garee · Apr 27, 2018

Zmouth said:

How the Son of man looked during that one timedemonstration of the work of the Holy Spirit not seen has no reflection of thegospel .

God is not a man as us. When he did leave he left theinformation you offered in 2 Cor 5:16 .
When he whodwells in every believer comes he will come as he did the first time no outwardform as a thief in the night. It’s one of the reasons he declared his flesh asthat seen profits for nothing. God has no form
Its and evil generation, non converted men that doesmake out God to be a man as us called a daysman in the scriptures

2 Cor 5:16 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea,though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him nomore."

Studyman · Apr 27, 2018

Metternich said:

I don't believe it is a sin to make an image of something we have seen. But to purposely rebel against God is another thing.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Why would a man who loves God want to create an image of Him or honor an image of Him when He expressly forbids it?

Do you believe this includes a picture of my dog? Or my children? Or the Ark? or the Cherubim's?

Think about what God is saying here. There is only one God and He is invisible. For a reason I would say. So ask yourself this question? Why would someone go ahead and deal with an image of God after He expressly commanded against it?

Does the phrase "They hated Me before they hated you" shed any light on the answer to this question?

Images Yes or No

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