Killing in the name of God?

[trofimus]

"Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.

27 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded..."
Ex 32

Would you obey such a command? We are, by the Holy Spirit and teaching of Jesus, being transformed to beings walking in light, love and peace, loving our enemies and better die than to harm others. Such a command seems to contradict it very much.

Any thoughts?

 

[Shamah]

Would you follow Yahshua/Jesus in this way? Being a member of His army:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 19:11-16, “And I saw the heaven opened, and there was a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Trustworthy and True, and in righteousness He judges and fights. And His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns, having a Name that had been written, which no one had perceived except Himself – and having been dressed in a robe dipped in blood (Isaiah 63:2) and His Name is called: The Word of יהוה. And the armies in the heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations. And He shall shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of the Almighty Strength. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written: SOVEREIGN OF SOVEREIGNS AND MASTER OF MASTERS.”

The blood will be around 5 feet high and 180+ miles wide:

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 14:12-20, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and the belief of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on.’ ” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them. And I looked and saw a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was One like the Son of Aḏam, (Dan 7:13-14) having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. And another messenger came out of the Dwelling Place, crying with a loud voice to the One sitting on the cloud, “Send Your sickle and reap, because the hour has come for You to reap, because the harvest of the earth is ripe. And the One sitting on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped. And another messenger came out of the Dwelling Place which is in the heaven, and he too held a sharp sickle. And another messenger came out from the altar, having authority over the fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him having the sharp sickle, saying, “Send your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe. And the messenger thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great wine press of the wrath of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out of the wine press, up to the bridles of the horses, for about one thousand six hundred stadiad. (Approx. 296 kilometres or 184 miles)”

[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Is this OK? Or is this not loving?

Do you understand why these are killed?

Do you understand why those people will killed in Exodus?

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 11:18, “And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come, and the time of the dead to be judged, and to give the reward to Your servants the prophets and to the set-apart ones, and to those who fear Your Name, small and great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

I do not know your motivations but it seems there has been a push the past few months to make Moses a bad guy, IMO most likley to say the Law is bad, but I do not know your heart in this matter.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 11:18, “And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come, and the time of the dead to be judged, and to give the reward to Your servants the prophets and to the set-apart ones, and to those who fear Your Name, small and great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
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[trofimus]

Would you follow Yahshua/Jesus in this way? Being a member of His army:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 19:11-16, “And I saw the heaven opened, and there was a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Trustworthy and True, and in righteousness He judges and fights. And His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns, having a Name that had been written, which no one had perceived except Himself – and having been dressed in a robe dipped in blood (Isaiah 63:2) and His Name is called: The Word of יהוה. And the armies in the heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations. And He shall shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of the Almighty Strength. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written: SOVEREIGN OF SOVEREIGNS AND MASTER OF MASTERS.”

The blood will be around 5 feet high and 180+ miles wide:

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 14:12-20, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and the belief of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on.’ ” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them. And I looked and saw a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was One like the Son of Aḏam, (Dan 7:13-14) having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. And another messenger came out of the Dwelling Place, crying with a loud voice to the One sitting on the cloud, “Send Your sickle and reap, because the hour has come for You to reap, because the harvest of the earth is ripe. And the One sitting on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped. And another messenger came out of the Dwelling Place which is in the heaven, and he too held a sharp sickle. And another messenger came out from the altar, having authority over the fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him having the sharp sickle, saying, “Send your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe. And the messenger thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great wine press of the wrath of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out of the wine press, up to the bridles of the horses, for about one thousand six hundred stadiad. (Approx. 296 kilometres or 184 miles)”

[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Is this OK? Or is this not loving?

Do you understand why these are killed?

Do you understand why those people will killed in Exodus?

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 11:18, “And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come, and the time of the dead to be judged, and to give the reward to Your servants the prophets and to the set-apart ones, and to those who fear Your Name, small and great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

I do not know your motivations but it seems there has been a push the past few months to make Moses a bad guy, IMO most likley to say the Law is bad, but I do not know your heart in this matter.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 11:18, “And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come, and the time of the dead to be judged, and to give the reward to Your servants the prophets and to the set-apart ones, and to those who fear Your Name, small and great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
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If you would get a command to kill people and to make streets full of blood, would you not have any problem with that? I have a problem with killing even insects. So why does God transform and teaches us to be peaceul, while, on the other hand, He will or can command us to massacre people, like you say?

This is the contradiction I would like to be addressed in this thread.

 

[Shamah]

If you would get a command to kill people and to make streets full of blood, would you not have any problem with that?

Well this is indeed what happens in Revelation, so if I am in the clouds with Yahshua/Jesus and we are in battle formation ready to make atonement upon the evil doers of this world and He says lets go and He is leading, then I would be glad to. Are you implying that if you enter His Kingdom and get called up to meet the Messiah in the air you will refuse?

THing is this:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 6:9-11, “And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the beings of those having been slain for the Word of יהוה and for the witness which they held, and they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Master, set-apart and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each one a white robe, and they were told that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brothers, who would be killed as they were, was completed.”

I trust His judgment.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 5:21-30,21 “For as the Father raises the dead and makes alive, even so the Son makes alive whom He wishes."22 “For the Father judges no one, but has given all the judgment to the Son,"23 that all should value the Son even as they value the Father. He who does not value the Son does not value the Father who sent Him."24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me possesses everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of Elohim. And those having heard shall live."26 “For as the Father possesses life in Himself, so He gave also to the Son to possess life in Himself,"27 and He has given Him authority also to do judgment, because He is the Son of Aḏam."28 “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice,"29 and shall come forth – those who have practiced righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practised evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment."30 “Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isaiah 11:1-10, “And a Twig shall come forth from the stump of Yishai, and a Branch from his roots shall be fruitful. The Spirit of יהוה [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]shall rest upon Him – the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[FONT=Times New Roman, serif], and shall make Him breathe in the fear of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, nor decide by the hearing of His ears. But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, and shall decide with straightness for the meek ones of the earth, and shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth (Rev 19:15, Hebrews 4:12-13), and slay the wrong with the breath of His lips. And righteousness shall be the girdle of His loins, and trustworthiness the girdle of His waist. And a wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and a leopard lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together, and a little child leads them. And cow and bear shall feed, their young ones lie down together, and a lion eat straw like an ox. And the nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole, and the weaned child shall put his hand in the adder’s den. They do no evil nor destroy in all My set-apart mountain, for the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a Root of Yishai, standing as a banner to the people. Unto Him the nations shall seek, and His rest shall be esteem.”[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
It will not be pretty however the Messiah is leading and righteous in judgment, I would not argue but do His will.


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[trofimus]

Well this is indeed what happens in Revelation, so if I am in the clouds with Yahshua/Jesus and we are in battle formation ready to make atonement upon the evil doers of this world and He says lets go and He is leading, then I would be glad to. Are you implying that if you enter His Kingdom and get called up to meet the Messiah in the air you will refuse?

THing is this:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 6:9-11, “And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the beings of those having been slain for the Word of יהוה and for the witness which they held, and they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Master, set-apart and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each one a white robe, and they were told that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brothers, who would be killed as they were, was completed.”

I trust His judgment.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 5:21-30,21 “For as the Father raises the dead and makes alive, even so the Son makes alive whom He wishes."22 “For the Father judges no one, but has given all the judgment to the Son,"23 that all should value the Son even as they value the Father. He who does not value the Son does not value the Father who sent Him."24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me possesses everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of Elohim. And those having heard shall live."26 “For as the Father possesses life in Himself, so He gave also to the Son to possess life in Himself,"27 and He has given Him authority also to do judgment, because He is the Son of Aḏam."28 “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice,"29 and shall come forth – those who have practiced righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practised evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment."30 “Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isaiah 11:1-10, “And a Twig shall come forth from the stump of Yishai, and a Branch from his roots shall be fruitful. The Spirit of יהוה [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]shall rest upon Him – the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[FONT=Times New Roman, serif], and shall make Him breathe in the fear of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, nor decide by the hearing of His ears. But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, and shall decide with straightness for the meek ones of the earth, and shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth (Rev 19:15, Hebrews 4:12-13), and slay the wrong with the breath of His lips. And righteousness shall be the girdle of His loins, and trustworthiness the girdle of His waist. And a wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and a leopard lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together, and a little child leads them. And cow and bear shall feed, their young ones lie down together, and a lion eat straw like an ox. And the nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole, and the weaned child shall put his hand in the adder’s den. They do no evil nor destroy in all My set-apart mountain, for the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a Root of Yishai, standing as a banner to the people. Unto Him the nations shall seek, and His rest shall be esteem.”[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
It will not be pretty however the Messiah is leading and righteous in judgment, I would not argue but do His will.


[/FONT]

Can you post at least one verse saying that we will bring the judgement by physically killing somebody? It would contradict all He teaches us by the Holy Spirit and in the New Testament, IMHO.

 

[Shamah]

Can you post at least one verse saying that we will bring the judgement by physically killing somebody? It would contradict all He teaches us by the Holy Spirit and in the New Testament, IMHO.

I said if I am in the air with Him as shown in this passage:

Revelation 19:11-16, “And I saw the heaven opened, and there was a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Trustworthy and True, and in righteousness He judges and fights. And His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns, having a Name that had been written, which no one had perceived except Himself – and having been dressed in a robe dipped in blood (Isaiah 63:2) and His Name is called: The Word of יהוה. And the armies in the heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations. And He shall shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of the Almighty Strength. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written: SOVEREIGN OF SOVEREIGNS AND MASTER OF MASTERS.”

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."[/FONT]



This says "armies" it does not litearlly say what they will be doing but it is POSSIBLY implied, the next passage says "[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]you will tread down the wicked" I dont know either way exactly what this is, but I am not affraid of the word, this prophecy in Malakyah is not yet fulfilled and is about the return of the Messiah, so we will see.

IF He says to, I would. As in I am a part of the army behind Him and He gives Command, then I would gladly do His will.

So tell me does Yahshua/Jesus contradict NT teaching by carrying this out?


[/FONT]

 

[Shamah]

Tro, have we really gotten that politically correct and to the point of some false religion where we act like Yahshua/Jesus can not even judge Hitler, Mao, Stalin types? Where we are in some kind of “soothsayer” religion of only soothing sayings and we can not even say we will join the Messiah as the Scriptures say? And by extension find fault with those who believe what is written?

I want to re-affirm this question:

So tell me does Yahshua/Jesus contradict NT teaching by carrying this out?

 

[Miri]

The other version of this is that God had the Israelites wander around the
wilderness for 40 years so most of them would die off. A new generation was
to enter the promised land, not the original ones who left Egypt.

They were given numerous chances, saw miracles, saw Gods provision first hand
but refused to become God centred people. They complained, grumble, worshiped
a golden calf, wished they could go back to Egypt, refused to follow even the simple
instructions about gathering manna for two days just before the sabbath.

They were unteachable, lacked ears to hear.

God saw the bigger picture, He wanted a chosen people through who the Saviour of
the World would be born. They were unfit for purpose. You can take the people out of
the world but not the world out of the people.

Just think about the exodus, every Hebrew left with Moses. Not every single Hebrew
wanted to follow God or was chosen by God.

Its always been that way and still is. Jesus died for everyone, not everyone is saved.
Broad is the path which leads to destruction......


Numbers 32:13 NKJV
[13] So the LORD's anger was aroused against Israel, and He made them wander
in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation that had done evil in the sight
of the LORD was gone.




Hebrews 3:14-19 NKJV
[14] For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of
our confidence steadfast to the end, [15] while it is said: "Today, if you
will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."
[16] For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came
out of Egypt, led by Moses? [17] Now with whom was He angry forty
years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the
wilderness? [18] And to whom did He swear that they would not
enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? [19] So we see that
they could not enter in because of unbelief.

 

[Shamah]

The other version of this is that God had the Israelites wander around the
wilderness for 40 years so most of them would die off. A new generation was
to enter the promised land, not the original ones who left Egypt.

They were given numerous chances, saw miracles, saw Gods provision first hand
but refused to become God centred people. They complained, grumble, worshiped
a golden calf, wished they could go back to Egypt, refused to follow even the simple
instructions about gathering manna for two days just before the sabbath.

They were unteachable, lacked ears to hear.

God saw the bigger picture, He wanted a chosen people through who the Saviour of
the World would be born. They were unfit for purpose. You can take the people out of
the world but not the world out of the people.

Just think about the exodus, every Hebrew left with Moses. Not every single Hebrew
wanted to follow God or was chosen by God.

Its always been that way and still is. Jesus died for everyone, not everyone is saved.
Broad is the path which leads to destruction......


Numbers 32:13 NKJV
[13] So the LORD's anger was aroused against Israel, and He made them wander
in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation that had done evil in the sight
of the LORD was gone.




Hebrews 3:14-19 NKJV
[14] For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of
our confidence steadfast to the end, [15] while it is said: "Today, if you
will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."
[16] For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came
out of Egypt, led by Moses? [17] Now with whom was He angry forty
years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the
wilderness? [18] And to whom did He swear that they would not
enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? [19] So we see that
they could not enter in because of unbelief.

This is truth, this is seeking understanding of Scripture not seeking to accuse it.

This is exactly what I was implying when I said:

Is this OK? Or is this not loving?

Do you understand why these are killed?

Do you understand why those people will killed in Exodus?

 

[Miri]

Tro - if you don’t understand, all I can say is that you are probably
spiritual young in your Christian Walk (and that’s ok by the way God has not
finished with you yet , or any of us for that matter, we all need to learn).

There are different ways of understanding the bible. Book by
book where we all start off, then gradually understanding
of the bigger picture seeing how all the bible comes together.
Its broken down into books but it’s really one epic story.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Ecclesiastes 3 (NIV)


There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:

2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

 

[Shamah]

Ecclesiastes 3 (NIV)


There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:

2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Malachi 3:2 “And who is able to bear the day of His coming, and who is able to stand when He appears? For He is like the fire of a refiner, and like the soap of a launderer.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 6:17, “because the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Jeremiah 33:15, “In those days and at that time I cause a Branch of righteousness to spring forth for Dawiḏ. And He shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.”[/FONT]

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

[video=youtube;pKP4cfU28vM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKP4cfU28vM[/video]

 

[trofimus]

Tro - if you don’t understand, all I can say is that you are probably
spiritual young in your Christian Walk (and that’s ok by the way God has not
finished with you yet , or any of us for that matter, we all need to learn).

There are different ways of understanding the bible. Book by
book where we all start off, then gradually understanding
of the bigger picture seeing how all the bible comes together.
Its broken down into books but it’s really one epic story.

What do you think I should understand? That I can be given a command to kill unbelievers even though I am taught to love my enemies and to better be harmed than harm others?

Its like telling your child to love her friends in school and to sacrifice for them and then, when she grows up, to give her a command to kill them all.

If it makes sense to you, maybe I am really too spiritually young.

 

[Shamah]

intellectual dishonesty tro...

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isaiah 4:2-4, “In that day the Branch of יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]shall be splendid and esteemed. And the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for the escaped onesa of Yisra’yl. (Joe 2:32, Oba 1:17) And it shall be that he who is left in Tsiyon and he who remains in Yerushalayim is called set-apart, everyone who is written among the living in Yerushalayim. When יהוה [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]has washed away the filth of the daughters of Tsiyon, and rinsed away the blood[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] of Yerushalayim from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning.”[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Ariel82]

"Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.

27 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded..."
Ex 32

Would you obey such a command? We are, by the Holy Spirit and teaching of Jesus, being transformed to beings walking in light, love and peace, loving our enemies and better die than to harm others. Such a command seems to contradict it very much.

Any thoughts?

It has been said an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. However I say if someone hits you on one cheek tur, the other so they might hit it as well....if someone forces you to walk one mile, walk with him two....

..love your enemies...

Different covenants.

Moses was under the old covenanr, we are under the new.

When Peter cut off the guards ear, Jesus reprimanded Peter and healed it.

When the sons of thunder wanted to call down fire from heaven to destroy a town, Jesus told them no....not because they didn't have the power,but because that was not His purpose.

 

[Ariel82]

If you would get a command to kill people and to make streets full of blood, would you not have any problem with that? I have a problem with killing even insects. So why does God transform and teaches us to be peaceul, while, on the other hand, He will or can command us to massacre people, like you say?

This is the contradiction I would like to be addressed in this thread.

God did allow people to be massacred in the old testament, but I don't believe He calls us to do so in the new.

In the past He was establishing and earthly kingdom through the nation of Israel. In the future he will use His angels to gather and destroy the wicked.

Presently He is showing the world Himself through His body, His children.

He is calling people to Himself so that they may turn from their wickeness and live.

Our example is Jesus who died upon the cross for others. Are we willing to die also?

Or do we seek to call down fire on the heads of those who offend us?

 

[Ariel82]

Can you post at least one verse saying that we will bring the judgement by physically killing somebody? It would contradict all He teaches us by the Holy Spirit and in the New Testament, IMHO.

No because Jesus taught the concept that we should bless those who curse us, feed them, clothe them and in that manner heap coals of judgment upon their head.

Jesus taught forgiveness and agape love.

Jesus taught unmerited grace and the ability to call God Abba, Father.

 

[graceNpeace]

The New covenant is completely different to the Sinaitic covenant...

In the context of this thread perhaps the biggest difference is that the Sinaitic covenant was made with a NATION while the New covenant is a covenant that God makes with INDIVIDUALS.

The Sinaitic covenant was also a covenant where the governance of a nation was the focal point - and it was a theocracy. A nation needs to be able to defend itself, and in the case of the Israelites, they needed to conquer a land that had been promised to them in centuries past.
What is more, the conflict between the Israelites and the various tribal groups then in Canaan, was as much a SPIRITUAL battle as a battle for land.
In fact, the Israelites pretty much won the battle for the land but lost the spiritual battle and succumbed to the foreign gods of the Canaanite tribes eventually resulting in the then, two Kingdoms, first the Kingdom of Israel, and then later the Kingdom of Judah, being subject to conquest and captivity as a judgement from God for serving false gods.
Any spiritual battle fought on a large scale always results in real casualties...

The New covenant, because it is made with individuals, of necessity, requires a completely different ethic.
Also, while conflict is recognised as being an integral part of the New covenant, it is also EXPLICITLY recognised that the real antagonists are NOT fellow human beings but evil spirits - demons led by Satan - and as such our primary weapons are spiritual, being the authority we all have in Jesus Christ over demonic beings as well as being able to pray directly to God.
However, it also accepted in the New covenant that believers, either singly or corporately, have the authority to defend themselves in any way necessary if under attack, even though we should always avoid open conflict when possible...

Simply put, it is impossible to directly compare events prior to establishing the New covenant by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and after, without recognising the profound differences between the two covenants!