Do genuine ex-Christians exist? (Discussion Topic)

[nogard]

Hello,

It has been a while since I've been on this site. Just cleaning up my bookmarks and thought I'd revisit to ask a simple question and see what responses we get.

The question is simple. Do ex-Christians exist? Are there people out there who once had genuine faith in Jesus Christ, but now no longer believe in God? It's an interesting question because different denominations have different starting points on this. Pentecostals will openly admit that such people exist, and have lost their salvation as a result of their denunciation. More Calvinist leaning denominations, like the Baptists, will staunchly deny that such people exist. There's simply no room for genuine exChristians in Calvinist theology.

But before we begin, I guess we need to clarify what it means to be a genuine Christian. For purposes of this discussion, and feel free to comment if you disagree, a genuine Christian is defined as an individual who acknowledged that they have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. They believe in Jesus Christ and what is written in the Bible. They believe Jesus is God, and He died on the cross for us, so that through Him we can be saved from our sin. They profess Jesus as Lord and invite the Holy Spirit to dwell inside them to guide them through life. They develop a repentant heart, where they turn from former sin and feel convicted when commit sin. They love the Lord and are genuine in their faith. This is a true believer.

So is it possible, for a true believer, as defined above, to one day struggle with their faith, for whatever reasons, and eventually lose their faith entirely as a result of that struggle, to the point where they no longer believe God exists?

According to those who claim to be genuine ex-Christians, the answer is an easy yes. A quick search online and you will find several communities of people proclaiming to be just that. Their stories are varied. Some were former missionaries or pastors. Others lost their faith while attending Christian college. Some were pastors kids. They share their testimony about how they came to Christ and their Christian life, testimonies that resemble one of any true believer. But then for one reason or another, a crisis of faith arose in their life, and it ended with them no longer believing.

So why this long-winded topic? Well, while several Christians completely acknowledge the existence of these people, and use them as evidence of how salvation can be lost, there is a large group of Christians who, despite any evidence ex-Christians try to give to prove that they were once genuine, refuse to believe that ex-Christians exist. They're response is quite simple: A true believer would never lose their faith, thus, these people must have never been true believers.

It's a response that's viewed as insulting to the ex-Christian community, as they feel it dismisses them without even hearing them out. Simply by no longer believing now, whatever they believed or experienced before must not have been genuine. End of discussion....

...Or is it? That's what I want to do here. How exactly does the latter dismiss the former? If they themselves were being genuine in their faith at the time, how can that be considered ingenuine? And if you truly believe they were never saved, then does that mean when I prayed as a young child for Jesus to come into my heart, that God said no?

Woops, didn't mean to make it personal. But it is personal. I exist. Living proof that it is very possible to live your life as a genuine follower of Jesus Christ but eventually come to a place where I lost that faith. If you don't agree with that, then let's discuss this, and try to get to the bottom of this tricky topic.

 

[Mel85]

You can’t really go against God’s Word right.....

 

[Ugly]

Stirring the pot it seems.

 

[joefizz]

You can’t really go against God’s Word right.....

Mel you probably shouldn't have gone for the "bait" I've been to the ex christian site and they like throwing that line around and this person seems no different,a bunch of logical and illogical stuff put together merely to stump the reader and hope for a response.

 

[Mel85]

Mel you probably shouldn't have gone for the "bait" I've been to the ex christian site and they like throwing that line around and this person seems no different,a bunch of logical and illogical stuff put together merely to stump the reader and hope for a response.

Thanks for looking out

Aslong as Truth has been told here (as per the scripture that i posted), and that this person behind the screen see’s it, I can only pray that they are convicted by the Holy Spirit

 

[joefizz]

Thanks for looking out

Aslong as Truth has been told here (as per the scripture that i posted), and that this person behind the screen see’s it, I can only pray that they are convicted by the Holy Spirit

Well you certainly have "courage" just saying that talking to such an individual is like hoping to get them convinced concerning God/Jesus but truth is that they are already convinced of something else and are just looking to do some converting of their own or as they call it "deconverting".

 

[joefizz]

Hello,

It has been a while since I've been on this site. Just cleaning up my bookmarks and thought I'd revisit to ask a simple question and see what responses we get.

The question is simple. Do ex-Christians exist? Are there people out there who once had genuine faith in Jesus Christ, but now no longer believe in God? It's an interesting question because different denominations have different starting points on this. Pentecostals will openly admit that such people exist, and have lost their salvation as a result of their denunciation. More Calvinist leaning denominations, like the Baptists, will staunchly deny that such people exist. There's simply no room for genuine exChristians in Calvinist theology.

But before we begin, I guess we need to clarify what it means to be a genuine Christian. For purposes of this discussion, and feel free to comment if you disagree, a genuine Christian is defined as an individual who acknowledged that they have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. They believe in Jesus Christ and what is written in the Bible. They believe Jesus is God, and He died on the cross for us, so that through Him we can be saved from our sin. They profess Jesus as Lord and invite the Holy Spirit to dwell inside them to guide them through life. They develop a repentant heart, where they turn from former sin and feel convicted when commit sin. They love the Lord and are genuine in their faith. This is a true believer.

So is it possible, for a true believer, as defined above, to one day struggle with their faith, for whatever reasons, and eventually lose their faith entirely as a result of that struggle, to the point where they no longer believe God exists?

According to those who claim to be genuine ex-Christians, the answer is an easy yes. A quick search online and you will find several communities of people proclaiming to be just that. Their stories are varied. Some were former missionaries or pastors. Others lost their faith while attending Christian college. Some were pastors kids. They share their testimony about how they came to Christ and their Christian life, testimonies that resemble one of any true believer. But then for one reason or another, a crisis of faith arose in their life, and it ended with them no longer believing.

So why this long-winded topic? Well, while several Christians completely acknowledge the existence of these people, and use them as evidence of how salvation can be lost, there is a large group of Christians who, despite any evidence ex-Christians try to give to prove that they were once genuine, refuse to believe that ex-Christians exist. They're response is quite simple: A true believer would never lose their faith, thus, these people must have never been true believers.

It's a response that's viewed as insulting to the ex-Christian community, as they feel it dismisses them without even hearing them out. Simply by no longer believing now, whatever they believed or experienced before must not have been genuine. End of discussion....

...Or is it? That's what I want to do here. How exactly does the latter dismiss the former? If they themselves were being genuine in their faith at the time, how can that be considered ingenuine? And if you truly believe they were never saved, then does that mean when I prayed as a young child for Jesus to come into my heart, that God said no?

Woops, didn't mean to make it personal. But it is personal. I exist. Living proof that it is very possible to live your life as a genuine follower of Jesus Christ but eventually come to a place where I lost that faith. If you don't agree with that, then let's discuss this, and try to get to the bottom of this tricky topic.

Welcome back,so do you have have anything " in particular" that you'd "actually" want to discuss?,
taking into account that you already have made a stance for yourself and others and that you pretty much have everything "figured out" for yourself what discussing can we have?

 

[nogard]

I'm confused. I'm not trying to bait anybody. Nor am I actively involved in any ex-Christian community at the moment. Believe it or not, I'm just a normal human being who is trying to have a civilized discussion about this topic. I'm puzzled by the hostility.

 

[nogard]

Well, I was hoping for an actual discussion. Where people, you know, actually share opinions and such rather than cast premature judgment. Also, I should note I am not trying to deconvert anyone, but I am trying to get people to acknowledge that ex-Christians do exist...so I guess I am guilty of that.

One person said what do I have to add to this conversation. Well, it's a very repetitive one for sure.

So basically, the same thing always happens when I try to prove that I was a genuine believer, no matter how I approach it:

1a. Mention the sinner's prayer as a starting point for my walk with Christ.

Response: "Just saying a prayer doesn't make you a genuine Christian, you need have a repentant heart and develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ"

1b. Don't mention the sinner's prayer, but instead mention how I repented of my sin and explain my faith in Christ.

Response: "Oh see, you never actually entered into a relationship with Christ or invited Christ into your life. You were simply just believing."

2a. Emphasize the external evidences of how I was a believer (church, love of worship, desire to serve God).

Response: "These are just works. It takes faith to be a true believer!"

2b. Emphasize the internal evidences of how I was a believer (love for God, prayer life, spirit of conviction).

Response: "All talk. Where are the fruits of your faith! I'm not seeing anything tangible that would make me think you were ever genuine."

Sigh.....No matter what I say or how I try to say it, they simply cannot accept that I was a genuine believer in Christ. I try to clarify the best I can, but the only response I usually get is one random verse thrown at me with the individual saying, "sorry, but I trust the word of God over you."

The irony there is that it's not the word of God that you are trusting, it's your interpretation of the word of God that you are trusting. Big difference there. We already covered how certain Christians believe that genuine ex-Christians can exist. So just be mindful that it is your personal interpretation of Scripture that you are choosing to side with.

So where does that leave the discussion. Well, my questions at the end of my first post seem like a good place to start. Let's talk about this. If anyone wants to, that is.

 

[joefizz]

I'm confused. I'm not trying to bait anybody. Nor am I actively involved in any ex-Christian community at the moment. Believe it or not, I'm just a normal human being who is trying to have a civilized discussion about this topic. I'm puzzled by the hostility.

Well then I'll explain why I reacted in such a way that you call "hostile", your post is very "unclear" and after reading it you are in favor of the as you put it "ex christian" perspective yet want to try discuss it's "aspects" which really is "questionable" off hand,so naturally I would gather that you aren't here to discuss even though you say you want to discuss.
Making a post rather "scattered" or somewhat "leaning to one perspective" is something we look out for here because typically the people turn out to be "trolls".(people hoping to justify sinful nature,be one sided entirely,cause trouble intentionally,or promote themselves)

 

[Mel85]

Well you certainly have "courage" just saying that talking to such an individual is like hoping to get them convinced concerning God/Jesus but truth is that they are already convinced of something else and are just looking to do some converting of their own or as they call it "deconverting".

I understand your view and that maybe you’ve come across many people like this but nothing will stand in the way of me sharing the Truth, even if their intentions are to manipulate people. I ain’t perfect and I know what it was like to be lost in this world, so I’m giving it the benefit of the doubt that this brother might be actual legit in his OP and generally wants a discussion. If not, then that’s for God to judge, not me.

 

[trofimus]

I exist. Living proof that it is very possible to live your life as a genuine follower of Jesus Christ but eventually come to a place where I lost that faith.

Did you know Him? Did you see God working in your life, did you see Him in all His creation?

If you did, you could not lose your faith, because such faith is based on personal knowledge and external evidence.

If you did not, you were just a follower of Christian teaching.

IMHO.

 

[Mel85]

Well, I was hoping for an actual discussion. Where people, you know, actually share opinions and such rather than cast premature judgment. Also, I should note I am not trying to deconvert anyone, but I am trying to get people to acknowledge that ex-Christians do exist...so I guess I am guilty of that.

Bascially, a backslider? Cause I don’t believe in “ex-Christians”. You’re either a Christian or not. I know a few people who are of that and majority of them exercise the reason that “they know better than God” now, which is why I posted my first reply in scripture.

 

[joefizz]

Well, I was hoping for an actual discussion. Where people, you know, actually share opinions and such rather than cast premature judgment. Also, I should note I am not trying to deconvert anyone, but I am trying to get people to acknowledge that ex-Christians do exist...so I guess I am guilty of that.

One person said what do I have to add to this conversation. Well, it's a very repetitive one for sure.

So basically, the same thing always happens when I try to prove that I was a genuine believer, no matter how I approach it:

1a. Mention the sinner's prayer as a starting point for my walk with Christ.

Response: "Just saying a prayer doesn't make you a genuine Christian, you need have a repentant heart and develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ"

1b. Don't mention the sinner's prayer, but instead mention how I repented of my sin and explain my faith in Christ.

Response: "Oh see, you never actually entered into a relationship with Christ or invited Christ into your life. You were simply just believing."

2a. Emphasize the external evidences of how I was a believer (church, love of worship, desire to serve God).

Response: "These are just works. It takes faith to be a true believer!"

2b. Emphasize the internal evidences of how I was a believer (love for God, prayer life, spirit of conviction).

Response: "All talk. Where are the fruits of your faith! I'm not seeing anything tangible that would make me think you were ever genuine."

Sigh.....No matter what I say or how I try to say it, they simply cannot accept that I was a genuine believer in Christ. I try to clarify the best I can, but the only response I usually get is one random verse thrown at me with the individual saying, "sorry, but I trust the word of God over you."

The irony there is that it's not the word of God that you are trusting, it's your interpretation of the word of God that you are trusting. Big difference there. We already covered how certain Christians believe that genuine ex-Christians can exist. So just be mindful that it is your personal interpretation of Scripture that you are choosing to side with.

So where does that leave the discussion. Well, my questions at the end of my first post seem like a good place to start. Let's talk about this. If anyone wants to, that is.

Well if you want to discuss with anyone I can't and wouldn't hinder you though you might consider talking as if you want a discussion instead of like that you are trying to promote something or someone whether Christian,ex christian,atheist,whatever you believe yourself to be,just be "You", no need for a long speech or things like that,just talk as you would face to face with a "friend".

 

[nogard]

Well then I'll explain why I reacted in such a way that you call "hostile", your post is very "unclear" and after reading it you are in favor of the as you put it "ex christian" perspective yet want to try discuss it's "aspects" which really is "questionable" off hand,so naturally I would gather that you aren't here to discuss even though you say you want to discuss.
Making a post rather "scattered" or somewhat "leaning to one perspective" is something we look out for here because typically the people turn out to be "trolls".(people hoping to justify sinful nature,be one sided entirely,cause trouble intentionally,or promote themselves)

You don't have to be completely neutral on a topic to have a discussion about it. I'm clearly not neutral as I identify as an ex-Christian, and I imagine you are not neutral either. That's what a discussion is for. Let's bring our opinions to the table. If you don't want to do that, that's fine, simply don't post in this topic. No one's forcing you.

What responses am I looking for out of this? Well, we can start extremely basic if we want. Here are some questions for Christians to respond to if they want.

1. Why is it not possible for a genuine believer to one day no longer believe? (This isn't asking if we can lose our salvation, but simply asking if a genuine believer can stop believing.) Share scripture if you'd like.

2. If someone believes their faith is genuine, as all Christians do, how exactly does it all become ingenuine the second they stop believing? If that person would have died before they stopped believing, would they have been a true Christian then?

3. If they were never saved, does that mean God rejected that person the entire time they thought they were saved? Once again, as a young boy of 10 years of age, I asked the Lord to come into my life, and I began my walk with Christ. Did God reject me as a young boy? Does that not contradict a boatload of Scripture?

 

[nogard]

Bascially, a backslider? Cause I don’t believe in “ex-Christians”. You’re either a Christian or not. I know a few people who are of that and majority of them exercise the reason that “they know better than God” now, which is why I posted my first reply in scripture.

Thanks Mel. I do appreciate your responses. It's interesting you bring this up because I have had people who believe in eternal security tell me that God will never let me go, and that I am still His child, just gone astray.

It's a comforting feeling. To think that if I was wrong in my deconversion that somehow I am still covered by the blood of Christ. Believe it or not, I didn't want to stop believing. I didn't want to lose my faith. It's just certain things became cognizant in my life that caused my perspective to change on things like God's goodness, the validity of Scripture, etc., and I struggled for many years to keep my faith, ultimately losing that battle.

As odd as it would be for someone like me to still be considered saved under the bonds of eternal security, it's better than people denying that I ever was what I know in my heart that I was. I just wonder if that viewpoint coincides with scripture. Would God still count me as one of his own even though I no longer believe He exists? Seems unlikely to me. But who knows.

 

[joefizz]

You don't have to be completely neutral on a topic to have a discussion about it. I'm clearly not neutral as I identify as an ex-Christian, and I imagine you are not neutral either. That's what a discussion is for. Let's bring our opinions to the table. If you don't want to do that, that's fine, simply don't post in this topic. No one's forcing you.

What responses am I looking for out of this? Well, we can start extremely basic if we want. Here are some questions for Christians to respond to if they want.

1. Why is it not possible for a genuine believer to one day no longer believe? (This isn't asking if we can lose our salvation, but simply asking if a genuine believer can stop believing.) Share scripture if you'd like.

2. If someone believes their faith is genuine, as all Christians do, how exactly does it all become ingenuine the second they stop believing? If that person would have died before they stopped believing, would they have been a true Christian then?

3. If they were never saved, does that mean God rejected that person the entire time they thought they were saved? Once again, as a young boy of 10 years of age, I asked the Lord to come into my life, and I began my walk with Christ. Did God reject me as a young boy? Does that not contradict a boatload of Scripture?

Well I gotta get some sleep(just got out from work,4:20 am here) I do hope you find what you are looking for,what you are asking for sounds along the lines of apolegetics which according to this site's management is not allowed just as one last word of advice(I don't make the rules some sites allow apolegetics some don't) anyways per my usual though I hope you not to be offended by this statement since I mean it in good will...
Good night everyone and may God bless you all!

 

[nogard]

thanks Joe, I need to go to bed too. Good night to you as well.

 

[Mel85]

Thanks Mel. I do appreciate your responses. It's interesting you bring this up because I have had people who believe in eternal security tell me that God will never let me go, and that I am still His child, just gone astray.

It's a comforting feeling. To think that if I was wrong in my deconversion that somehow I am still covered by the blood of Christ. Believe it or not, I didn't want to stop believing. I didn't want to lose my faith. It's just certain things became cognizant in my life that caused my perspective to change on things like God's goodness, the validity of Scripture, etc., and I struggled for many years to keep my faith, ultimately losing that battle.

As odd as it would be for someone like me to still be considered saved under the bonds of eternal security, it's better than people denying that I ever was what I know in my heart that I was. I just wonder if that viewpoint coincides with scripture. Would God still count me as one of his own even though I no longer believe He exists? Seems unlikely to me. But who knows.

God still and will always love you regardless, after all you are one of his (lost) sheep.

I think theres a difference between COMPLETELY turning away from God and doing your own thing vs falling into sin and losing sight of the Shepherd, but still wanting to be with God. Which one are you? Do you still want a relationship with God? Or have you made your mind up and believe that He doesn’t exist? (Rhetorical questions).

Also, one must be careful if you are proclaiming that once upon a time, you believed in God and now you are saying He doesn’t exist? This scripture comes to mind:

[h=1]Matthew 10:33 English Standard Version (ESV)[/h][FONT=&quot]33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
[/FONT]

 

[stonesoffire]

Hello,

It has been a while since I've been on this site. Just cleaning up my bookmarks and thought I'd revisit to ask a simple question and see what responses we get.

The question is simple. Do ex-Christians exist? Are there people out there who once had genuine faith in Jesus Christ, but now no longer believe in God? It's an interesting question because different denominations have different starting points on this. Pentecostals will openly admit that such people exist, and have lost their salvation as a result of their denunciation. More Calvinist leaning denominations, like the Baptists, will staunchly deny that such people exist. There's simply no room for genuine exChristians in Calvinist theology.

But before we begin, I guess we need to clarify what it means to be a genuine Christian. For purposes of this discussion, and feel free to comment if you disagree, a genuine Christian is defined as an individual who acknowledged that they have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. They believe in Jesus Christ and what is written in the Bible. They believe Jesus is God, and He died on the cross for us, so that through Him we can be saved from our sin. They profess Jesus as Lord and invite the Holy Spirit to dwell inside them to guide them through life. They develop a repentant heart, where they turn from former sin and feel convicted when commit sin. They love the Lord and are genuine in their faith. This is a true believer.

So is it possible, for a true believer, as defined above, to one day struggle with their faith, for whatever reasons, and eventually lose their faith entirely as a result of that struggle, to the point where they no longer believe God exists?

According to those who claim to be genuine ex-Christians, the answer is an easy yes. A quick search online and you will find several communities of people proclaiming to be just that. Their stories are varied. Some were former missionaries or pastors. Others lost their faith while attending Christian college. Some were pastors kids. They share their testimony about how they came to Christ and their Christian life, testimonies that resemble one of any true believer. But then for one reason or another, a crisis of faith arose in their life, and it ended with them no longer believing.

So why this long-winded topic? Well, while several Christians completely acknowledge the existence of these people, and use them as evidence of how salvation can be lost, there is a large group of Christians who, despite any evidence ex-Christians try to give to prove that they were once genuine, refuse to believe that ex-Christians exist. They're response is quite simple: A true believer would never lose their faith, thus, these people must have never been true believers.

It's a response that's viewed as insulting to the ex-Christian community, as they feel it dismisses them without even hearing them out. Simply by no longer believing now, whatever they believed or experienced before must not have been genuine. End of discussion....

...Or is it? That's what I want to do here. How exactly does the latter dismiss the former? If they themselves were being genuine in their faith at the time, how can that be considered ingenuine? And if you truly believe they were never saved, then does that mean when I prayed as a young child for Jesus to come into my heart, that God said no?

Woops, didn't mean to make it personal. But it is personal. I exist. Living proof that it is very possible to live your life as a genuine follower of Jesus Christ but eventually come to a place where I lost that faith. If you don't agree with that, then let's discuss this, and try to get to the bottom of this tricky topic.

Hi nogard

Your definition of a Christian is off according to scripture.

No one can come to God unless he/ she is drawn.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Why?

Because of our nature. We are cutoff from God because He is Holy and unapproachable to us because of sin. He comes to us, not the other way around.

Then He must be received when we are drawn to Him. This is an experience with God. The new birth is what joins us to Jesus and makes us part of the living body of Christ.

I would say that you are being drawn, but as of yet, you haven't been broken.

You have only played church.

You are nothing. He (Jesus) is everything. Harsh words? When you understand this, you will never turn away.