No Outward Act Can Save You

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wanderer6059

wanderer6059

Senior Member
#1
Oct 27, 2013
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#1
water baptized, works, the law, sacraments, nothing you can do in your own power can save you or even help your salvation. if there is anything you do it is the heart state you have and speaking.

there is only one thing that saves, that is to believe that Jesus was and is the Christ, and to confess Him as Lord. it is by Grace you are saved through faith.
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#2
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
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#2
wanderer6059 said:
water baptized, works, the law, sacraments, nothing you can do in your own power can save you or even help your salvation. if there is anything you do it is the heart state you have and speaking.

there is only one thing that saves, that is to believe that Jesus was and is the Christ, and to confess Him as Lord. it is by Grace you are saved through faith.
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Thats a starting point, but not a complete view.

""Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
Mt 7:21
 
wanderer6059

wanderer6059

Senior Member
#3
Oct 27, 2013
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#3
trofimus said:
Thats a starting point, but not a complete view.

""Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
Mt 7:21
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i agree, but again it's living by faith that we continue in that. the good works of our spirit are but a byproduct of His work in us, not something we can claim. that's why those that say "Lord, Lord" will be turned away, they tried to work it out in their own right, and not let His love and Grace work them out, only faith will please God, anything else is but sin to Him.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#4
#4
wanderer6059 said:
water baptized, works, the law, sacraments, nothing you can do in your own power can save you or even help your salvation. if there is anything you do it is the heart state you have and speaking.

there is only one thing that saves, that is to believe that Jesus was and is the Christ, and to confess Him as Lord. it is by Grace you are saved through faith.
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I think everyone knows this. The problem is people think this means you don't have to do anything now that you're saved, not realizing that doing nothing ultimately shows that you aren't saved.
 
wanderer6059

wanderer6059

Senior Member
#5
Oct 27, 2013
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#5
Ralph- said:
I think everyone knows this. The problem is people think this means you don't have to do anything now that you're saved, not realizing that doing nothing ultimately shows that you aren't saved.
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right, but i think that is agreement in an extreme. while on the other-side i see people promote works righteousness to the max.

i think an understanding of there is nothing you can do but yield to God, but in that meekness there should be a life transforming power at work in you.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#6
#6
wanderer6059 said:
i agree, but again it's living by faith that we continue in that. the good works of our spirit are but a byproduct of His work in us, not something we can claim. that's why those that say "Lord, Lord" will be turned away, they tried to work it out in their own right, and not let His love and Grace work them out, only faith will please God, anything else is but sin to Him.
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Actually, what Christ says there in Matthew 7:23 is they are lawless. The ministerial works they will try to use to prove they know him are not what shows you know him. Your obedience to the commands of God is what shows you know him:


4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
6No one who abides in Him sins (practices lawlessness); no one who sins (practices lawlessness) has seen Him or knows Him."-1 John 3:4,6)


Which is a very timely message for the church at this present time. Many Christians are taking false comfort in their service to God in the church--leading Bible studies, giving money to the church, faithful church attendance, supporting church programs--then they go back home to their lawless, immoral lives. These are the ones Christ will turn away when he comes back. They show by their disobedient lives that they do not know him.
 
wanderer6059

wanderer6059

Senior Member
#7
Oct 27, 2013
1,282
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#7
Ralph- said:
Actually, what Christ says there in Matthew 7:23 is they are lawless. The ministerial works they will try to use to prove they know him are not what shows you know him. Your obedience to the commands of God is what shows you know him:


4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
6No one who abides in Him sins (practices lawlessness); no one who sins (practices lawlessness) has seen Him or knows Him."-1 John 3:4,6)


Which is a very timely message for the church at this present time. Many Christians are taking false comfort in their service to God in the church--leading Bible studies, giving money to the church, faithful church attendance, supporting church programs--then they go back home to their lawless, immoral lives. These are the ones Christ will turn away when he comes back. They show by their disobedient lives that they do not know him.
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i completely agree, i am just saying that our obedience is only possible by the work of grace and faith in our life.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#8
#8
wanderer6059 said:
i see people promote works righteousness to the max.
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I don't. I've only known or talked to one or two people in all my years as a Christian who think what they do makes them righteous in God's sight.

By far the problem in the church is people taking false comfort in the sacrifice of their service in the church that they are 'okay' with God in salvation. Not knowing it is the obedience of their personal lives that shows they know Christ and are 'okay' with God in salvation.
 
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HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#9
Sep 4, 2012
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#9
I tend to disagree about water baptism. I think it is essential as circumcision was, but I'm not dogmatic about it. I would insist to anyone I know personally that they get water baptized.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#10
Apr 7, 2014
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#10
trofimus said:
Thats a starting point, but not a complete view.

""Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
Mt 7:21
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John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#11
#11
wanderer6059 said:
i completely agree, i am just saying that our obedience is only possible by the work of grace and faith in our life.
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Just so we know, the things the people were doing in Matthew 7:22, whether it was done in the power of the Spirit or not, do not constitute the obedience of the Christian. How you live your personal life is what constitutes the obedience of the Christian. That is what shows whether or not you have a mature/maturing knowing of Christ in salvation. Your works of service to God do not show that one way or the other. Many people will find this out the hard way, on the day Christ returns, when it's too late.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#12
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
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#12
Ralph- said:
Which is a very timely message for the church at this present time. Many Christians are taking false comfort in their service to God in the church--leading Bible studies, giving money to the church, faithful church attendance, supporting church programs--then they go back home to their lawless, immoral lives. These are the ones Christ will turn away when he comes back. They show by their disobedient lives that they do not know him.
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The church in Ephesus in Revelation was praised for their many activities, but was rebuked for forsaking the foremost love, i.e., loving GOD with all of one's being. They failed to discern in all of their activities the one walking in their midst who holds all the riches of GOD that empower a godly walk. They were in a sense lamps without oil. His judgment is severe.
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#13
Aug 17, 2015
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#13
mailmandan said:
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
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Yes. But He said also other things. Our picture must be complete.

And faith without works is dead.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#14
Apr 7, 2014
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#14
trofimus said:
Yes. But He said also other things. Our picture must be complete.

And faith without works is dead.
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Are you suggesting we are saved by works? OR that works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith?
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#15
Aug 17, 2015
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#15
mailmandan said:
Are you suggesting we are saved by works? OR that works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith?
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I am saying that faith without works is useless.

Any real faith is accompanied by repentance, change of life, a desire to live better, cleaning of life, love for God etc.

Many Roman Catholics believe that Jesus is Christ and other basic christian doctrines but their life is like the life of any worldly person. Are they saved?
 
wanderer6059

wanderer6059

Senior Member
#16
Oct 27, 2013
1,282
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#16
Ralph- said:
Just so we know, the things the people were doing in Matthew 7:22, whether it was done in the power of the Spirit or not, do not constitute the obedience of the Christian. How you live your personal life is what constitutes the obedience of the Christian. That is what shows whether or not you have a mature/maturing knowing of Christ in salvation. Your works of service to God do not show that one way or the other. Many people will find this out the hard way, on the day Christ returns, when it's too late.
Click to expand...
i think i need to word things better lol, i agree. i see the church today operating much like the temple in Christ day, more concerned with the religious acts they can do but not truly living out the walk in the spirit, and obedience to His commandments. i think the falt lies is how the church has placed value of spiritual things. more orthodox churches have put religious sacrament over most and put Jesus almost out of reach by them, while on the other-hand charismatic and more modern churches have put signs and wonders at the pinnacle of the church experience, while setting aside the thought of deep and meaningful simple relationship with the Savior.

that is why we see the church struggle with obedience, at lease that is my opinion. how can they be obedient if they are forsaking the power to enable them to be obedient.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#17
Apr 7, 2014
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#17
trofimus said:
I am saying that faith without works is useless.
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I agree, yet "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#18
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
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#18
mailmandan said:
I agree, yet "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
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"Can such a faith save him?"

Just to believe that Jesus is Lord/Christ does not save all believers.

It saves only specific believiers, according to some other conditions (election, works, repentance, keeping the faith till death, gift of the Holy Spirit...)

Even miracles in Jesus´s name are useless regardings person´s salvation, when there is a disobedience, as Jesus said.
 
wanderer6059

wanderer6059

Senior Member
#19
Oct 27, 2013
1,282
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48
#19
mailmandan said:
I agree, yet "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
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one way i have seen it is faith is inactive without works. the Greek here for dead is not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions, unable, ineffective, dead, powerless.

my one question would be then if we are saves by grace, through faith.
​if faith is inactive, or we can say idle are we still saved?
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#20
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
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#20
Faith without works... What is that exactly? I would describe it as a profession of faith without any actual inward work to actualize that faith such that godliness becomes our nature. If the inside is right we don't have to worry about doing outward things. That will become our nature.
 
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