Grappling With Why God Allows Evil To Continue

[Stunnedbygrace]

PeacefulBeliever and I wanted to have a conversation regarding this topic. We agreed, through pm's, to have it here.
The first post was originally written by PeacefulBeliever and has been transferred here. The second post was my reply to her and has also been transferred here. We both agreed to bringing our posts here and want to continue to have respectful conversation because we feel it's a good topic to grapple with and learn what we can about.

Our posts came from a thread that went off the rails. We were not involved in the rancor and our posts did not cause any rancor and we don't want to call attention to a thread that was closed or continue any rancor, or disrespect the mods, so we are not doing the "reply with quote" option, but are just copying our two posts to here, by the agreement of us both, so we can continue our respectful discussion.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

This was PeacefulBelievers post:


#1 - What I have said throughout - God is not in control of EVERYTHING - MY meaning - God is NOT the causation of evil. I believe I said God does not control the evil done to us. (I could be wrong - there has been so much said and sometimes our words don't fully convey the full meaning of what we are trying to say!)
#2 - Then the "permission" thingy was brought up . . . I responded basically with if God responds to Satan with permission, assent, consent, allowing Satan to do evil then He is the causation of the evil that happens. I also responded with scripture.
#3 - When you posted scripture I responded to scripture - When I posted scripture, the scriptures I posted were never responded to.
#4 - If God says that Satan is the god of this world - then Satan is in control of things happening in this WORLD.
#5 - If God says that the whole world lies in the power, control of the evil one - then Satan is controlling the evil in this WORLD.
#6 - God stopping the evil that touches us - Yes, God can and will intervene on our behalf through our prayers and our faith
#7 - God stopping the evil that touches us - He has also given us the tools to keep ourselves from the wicked one
#8 - God does not render evil (make, cause, give) just so he can turn around and make it good - He takes the evil done, by and through our enemy and His, and makes it good.
#9 - Post #40 - "

It's easy for me to pray because I know where the evil comes from . . . I trust because I know where the evil comes from. I stay alert and watchful, aware of evil's methods and I hopefully, to the best of my ability, I keep myself within the full armor of God to avoid the fiery darts of the wicked . . . Yes, the fiery darts of the wicked NOT any evil that God "allows" to touch me. God "allowing" evil to touch me is God orchestrating with Satan to perform evil. As scripture says - there is no darkness in God at all - evil is darkness and I guess that's why I believe the way I do."
#10 - So, there is a problem with a God who allows evil and yet, tells me how to avoid evil - If God is permitting the evil to befall me then it is his will . . . but yet we are told to fight against evil?????? ​

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

This was my first reply to PeacefulBeliever.

I'm starting with your #1.

You say that when you say God is not in control of everything, that what you mean is He is not the causation of evil. I agree and I have stated numerous times that I do not believe God causes evil/is the author of evil/causes men to do evil to each other but that He works ALL things for our good, including any plans or plots that evil devises against us.

So do we differ? If we don't, then we are in agreement. If we do differ, what do you see us differing on regarding your point #1?​

 

[notuptome]

A good deal of this subject matter is related to Job.

God does not cause evil but man is inherently evil. Man is a natural rebel against the goodness of God.

How can man recapture the innocence he lost in the garden?

God is sovereign and His goodness is proven in that He has overcome evil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[trofimus]

Problem:

a) Some people are emphasising the goodness of God so much that they derogate His power or all-knowing (arminians).

b) Some people are emphasising the power of God so much that they derogate His goodness (calvinists).

Solution:

The only correct view is to merge both (God´s goodness and God´s power).

The outcome is the goal of everything, nothing is happening randomly. Everything temporal has a meaning and will lead into the best possible eternity.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

This was my first reply to PeacefulBeliever:

I'm starting with your #1.

You say that when you say God is not in control of everything, that what you mean is He is not the causation of evil. I agree and I have stated numerous times that I do not believe God causes evil/is the author of evil/causes men to do evil to each other but that He works ALL things for our good, including any plans or plots that evil devises against us.

So do we differ? If we don't, then we are in agreement. If we do differ, what do you see us differing on regarding your point #1?​

Depends on where you think "any plans or plots that evil devises against us" comes from. I know from your previous post

(I am only speaking of your post) from what I understand - You believe that God permits, allows, consents to the evil happening to us.
​

Now . . . if something is permitted, allowed, consented to - would that not also be the same as "making" (causing) something happen"?

Romans 8:28 . . . And we know all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose. Are all things working together for good or is it God working all things together for good? There is a difference.

​

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Depends on where you think "any plans or plots that evil devises against us" comes from. I know from your previous post

(I am only speaking of your post) ​

from what I understand - You believe that God permits, allows, consents to the evil happening to us.

Now . . . if something is permitted, allowed, consented to - would that not also be the same as "making" (causing) something happen"?
[/LEFT]

No, i do not think so anyway,

it means they did not stop it for whatever reason,

god will not remove free will, in order to remove all evil, he wouod have to remove free will.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

No, i do not think so anyway,

it means they did not stop it for whatever reason,

god will not remove free will, in order to remove all evil, he wouod have to remove free will.

I hit "like" then removed it because I want to make sure I understand what you are saying EG. Is your "no" the answer to this: Now . . . if something is permitted, allowed, consented to - would that not also be the same as "making" (causing) something happen"?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I hit "like" then removed it because I want to make sure I understand what you are saying EG. Is your "no" the answer to this: Now . . . if something is permitted, allowed, consented to - would that not also be the same as "making" (causing) something happen"?

Yes, that was what i was responding to, sorry if i was not clear. Forgive me sis.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Yes, that was what i was responding to, sorry if i was not clear. Forgive me sis.

To me: If I give permission, the right to do something, my approval, my consent, to someone to do something and that "something" is evil or hurtful to someone else - then I, by giving my authority, am just as guilty as the one who "caused" the suffering. . . If I permit, authorize someone to steal . . . then I have to hold myself responsible or accountable for that action. I had a part in it because I authorized it. If my child wants to touch a hot stove and I allow it - then I am responsible for his/her pain and suffering. I don't know if I am expressing what I am trying to correctly!!! Maybe I have a weird way of looking at things!!!

 

[Noose]

Isa 45:6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

You 2 don't know what you are arguing about. God is God and everything else falls short of being God/perfect and for this reason:

God is Holy/good- means everything else experiences increases in evil
God is light- means everything else is in the dark and the more it is dark, the brighter God is comparatively.
And the list goes on and on but because God loves man, He wants man to shift from darkness to His side so that they are one (perfect/eternal/good/wise). So, man will be one with God- being in God and God in them. means that man will be God.

 

[Nehemiah6]

What I have said throughout - God is not in control of EVERYTHING - MY meaning - God is NOT the causation of evil.

Yes, God is indeed in control of everything, and at the same time He is not the first Cause of evil.

Christians cannot deny that God holds the entire universe in His hands, and is even aware of every sparrow which falls to the ground. That is what Christ told us. Therefore He is in full control of His universe at all time, and fully aware of every creature, and every thought and intent of the heart.

Having said that, GOD ALLOWS SIN AND EVIL TO EXIST in His universe. But it will only be for "a season". Since a thousand years are merely one day in the sight of God, He has allowed sin and evil for about six days (out of all eternity which is endless). There will come a day when Satan and his evil angels are in Hell, and there is a New Heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness. God has said: "Behold, I make all things new".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To me: If I give permission, the right to do something, my approval, my consent, to someone to do something and that "something" is evil or hurtful to someone else - then I, by giving my authority, am just as guilty as the one who "caused" the suffering. . . If I permit, authorize someone to steal . . . then I have to hold myself responsible or accountable for that action. I had a part in it because I authorized it. If my child wants to touch a hot stove and I allow it - then I am responsible for his/her pain and suffering. I don't know if I am expressing what I am trying to correctly!!! Maybe I have a weird way of looking at things!!!

By using this line of thinking, god is responsible for hitler and the millions of people who died at his hand,

i just can not think this way,

God allowed hitler for whatever reason, but he is not responsible for what hitler did.

As the bible says, god is patient willing that non should perish, imagine if he removed all evil and made our lives all perfect, who would seek God?

And again we have the free will issue.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Depends on where you think "any plans or plots that evil devises against us" comes from. I know from your previous post

(I am only speaking of your post) from what I understand - You believe that God permits, allows, consents to the evil happening to us.
​

Now . . . if something is permitted, allowed, consented to - would that not also be the same as "making" (causing) something happen"?

Romans 8:28 . . . And we know all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose. Are all things working together for good or is it God working all things together for good? There is a difference.

​

Sorry took so long. I was panfrying some tempeh and making a salad. No breakfast, starving, the schrapnel gonna' fly!

You say it depends on where any plans or plots that evil devises against us comes from to determine if we are in agreement.. It obviously comes from evil if I say: "any plans or plots evil devises against us." If evil devises, plans, plots or conceives them, they have originated from evil - not from God. Otherwise, I would have said: any plots or plans God devises against us...

As to whether God permitting evil to continue on earth is Him causing it to happen, I don't believe that. If I allow you/permit you to borrow my car and you cause a wreck because you're texting, was my permission the cause of the wreck. If I permit you to eat some of my tempeh and you choke to death, was I the cause of you choking to death?

God could choose to end this all whenever He wants. Evil has not caused Him to not be able to end it whenever He wants or else after the fall, He would not have been able to destroy all but a few men in the flood.

Put it this way, if you ask to borrow my car and you are of age, and my car is insured, and you wreck it because of texting, would your family win a court case if they tried to sue me, saying I was the cause of your death and your death was my fault?

Or, if we are friends and you come over my house for lunch and I cook tempeh and a salad and you choke to death on a piece of tempeh while I'm in the bathroom, would your family win a court case if they tried to sue me, saying I was the cause of your death because I shared my food with you?

The answer to both of those has to be no. Otherwise, no one would ever legally be allowed to borrow someone elses car and no one could ever open a restaurant, share their food, or even give someone a mint or a drink of water!

So to give permission/to let/allow does not then lead to causation of bad. It can be, in cases of negligence or lack of due diligence, but it is not a given at all and depends on many factors.

So when you ask if something is allowed or permitted, isn't that the same as causing it to happen - no. God could end this all (and will one day) but He has not yet. By your argument, by His permitting it to continue, He is causing cancer, murder, etc.

I'm not saying your argument can not be made tenable. But it is not tenable as it stands because you circle around and blame God when your intent is to do the opposite.

As to your last paragraph, I think you probably know my answer! If you really don't, let me know and I'll give it to you.

 

[Joidevivre]

I agree with Eternally Grateful, that in order to permit freedom of choice, evil will just be one of the choices because of the nature of man.

But there is another aspect. Could it be possible that God allows evil (sickness, harm, etc.) to exist simply to have a foundation on which to reveal Himself as Healer, Restorer, Deliverer, Savior and especially Comforter? Without the effects of evil, we would not know or experience God so completely.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

To talk to you about this difficult subject requires so much concentration, PB. I will need a lot of breaks to tax my brain so hard!. I'll be back, hopefully in an hour or so. I'm going to take a break and work on a rocking chair. That's funny...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree with Eternally Grateful, that in order to permit freedom of choice, evil will just be one of the choices because of the nature of man.

But there is another aspect. Could it be possible that God allows evil (sickness, harm, etc.) to exist simply to have a foundation on which to reveal Himself as Healer, Restorer, Deliverer, Savior and especially Comforter? Without the effects of evil, we would not know or experience God so completely.

I would also say if evil was allowed to go untethered. We would have most likely destroyed our planted many years ago,

that will happen in the end, when jesus removed the spirit which restrains, and allowes evil to go unchcked. The world will fall to utter chaos, and he will be forced to return for the sake of the elect because if he did not, no flesh would survive.

 

[jaybird88]

I don't like evil but rather live in a world with choices as opposed to a world where I am a puppet on a string

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Problem:

a) Some people are emphasising the goodness of God so much that they derogate His power or all-knowing (arminians).

b) Some people are emphasising the power of God so much that they derogate His goodness (calvinists).

Solution:

The only correct view is to merge both (God´s goodness and God´s power).

The outcome is the goal of everything, nothing is happening randomly. Everything temporal has a meaning and will lead into the best possible eternity.

Going to try to keep my conversation only with PB for a bit, not to be rude to anyone, but so she and I can really dig into this without getting sidetracked from our goal. I was going to give you a rep comment though because I agree heartily.

There are ditches on BOTH sides of a road.

But I was unable to rep you so i had to do this instead.

I'll gladly expand my conversation to you guys in a little bit. You all have given fantastic thoughts, well thought out thoughts. I'm just experimenting on whether I can maybe keep myself from diluting my focus until PB and I can discuss the rest of her original post. But this isn't to say you cannot converse with each other for a bit! Like I could stop you anyway!

 

[crossnote]

A short while ago, the mayor may have 'stood down' the rioterrs (allowed them to riot by watching, when he could have had the police stop them) but he did not cause the riots.