Does God Sever Fellowship With Us When We Sin?

[JGIG]

Fellowship can indeed be lost.

With people...

This is a profound point, because so many times we take how we, as imperfect people, relate with other people, be it with family, friends, co-workers, strangers . . . and apply that to how we think God relates to mankind personally, corporately, and familially (with those of us who are in Christ and the adopted of God).

In doing so we err, because of our flawed perceptions, dysfunctional pasts (and in many cases present), and then assume that God would relate to/with others as we would.

He doesn't. In Isaiah when God is telling us that His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, and His ways higher than our ways (see Isaiah 55), that phrase, in context, is speaking of the New Covenant, and in Isaiah 54, God talks about how He will never be angry with us again (again, context is pointing to the New Covenant in Christ):

4“Do not be afraid; you will not be put to shame.
Do not fear disgrace; you will not be humiliated.
You will forget the shame of your youth
and remember no more the reproach of your widowhood.
5For your Maker is your husband—
the Lord Almighty is his name—
the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer;
he is called the God of all the earth.
6The Lord will call you back
as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit—
a wife who married young,
only to be rejected,” says your God.
7“For a brief moment I abandoned you,
but with deep compassion I will bring you back.
8In a surge of anger
I hid my face from you for a moment,
but with everlasting kindness
I will have compassion on you,”
says the Lord your Redeemer.

9“To me this is like the days of Noah,
when I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth.
So now I have sworn not to be angry with you,
never to rebuke you again.
10Though the mountains be shaken
and the hills be removed,
yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken
nor my covenant of peace be removed,”
says the Lord, who has compassion on you.




-JGIG​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The doctrine you're espousing gives people an excuse. What I am proposing is that we awake to righteousness and sin not (though if we do sin, we have an Advocate with the Father). For you to define the believer as having the nature of unrighteousness, you leave them in bondage to sin and its dominion.

That only happens to people with no faith.

 

[joefizz]

This is a profound point, because so many times we take how we, as imperfect people, relate with other people, be it with family, friends, co-workers, strangers . . . and apply that to how we think God relates to mankind personally, corporately, and familially (with those of us who are in Christ and the adopted of God).

In doing so we err, because of our flawed perceptions, dysfunctional pasts (and in many cases present), and then assume that God would relate to/with others as we would.

He doesn't. In Isaiah when God is telling us that His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, and His ways higher than our ways (see Isaiah 55), that phrase, in context, is speaking of the New Covenant, and in Isaiah 54, God talks about how He will never be angry with us again (again, context is pointing to the New Covenant in Christ):

4“Do not be afraid; you will not be put to shame.
Do not fear disgrace; you will not be humiliated.
You will forget the shame of your youth
and remember no more the reproach of your widowhood.
5For your Maker is your husband—
the Lord Almighty is his name—
the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer;
he is called the God of all the earth.
6The Lord will call you back
as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit—
a wife who married young,
only to be rejected,” says your God.
7“For a brief moment I abandoned you,
but with deep compassion I will bring you back.
8In a surge of anger
I hid my face from you for a moment,
but with everlasting kindness
I will have compassion on you,”
says the Lord your Redeemer.

9“To me this is like the days of Noah,
when I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth.
So now I have sworn not to be angry with you,
never to rebuke you again.
10Though the mountains be shaken
and the hills be removed,
yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken
nor my covenant of peace be removed,”
says the Lord, who has compassion on you.




-JGIG​

Yeah not as if to say that it "hasn't happened before" God breaking fellowship with someone,case in point,King saul,eventually God no longer spoke to king saul not in council or in any further warning,but to day since we can be "joined" with Jesus and therefore be children of God and not be forsaken by God as God did with Saul.

 

[BenFTW]

Ben, you cannot propose believers DO NOT SIN, because you admit that we DO.

So if you say believers merely SHOULD NOT SIN, that is the same position taken by everyone else.


Therefore, why all the fuss over this issue?

The argument is one of propensity. HeRoseFromTheDead's words say that a believer's nature is unrighteousness, which means that their default acquiescence is to permit sin. It is who they are, after all. Yet, God tells us in His word through Paul to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God. That we are no longer slaves to sin. We have a new nature, we are a new creation. So our default, and through God's process of sanctification, is righteousness. Our propensity, our inclination, should be righteousness though this is hindered for different reasons (ignorance to the truth, habit, necessity of renewing the mind, etc).

The fuss then is not a proposal of suggestion, that one shouldn't sin, because of who we are in Christ, it no longer is who we are. We walk in righteousness, as it says in John, to not be deceived because the righteous commit righteousness. Paul wasn't telling people they shouldn't sin (only), as if to step up their game as it were, but informing them of who they are in Christ. Dead to sin and alive unto God. How do we live in sin, when we are dead to it? Wake up, awake to righteousness. God's grace isn't a license to sin (is the message).

So while we all agree that we shouldn't sin, the issue here was about propensity and inclination. Who are we in Christ? Are we still slaves to sin? If it is our nature, to be unrighteous, then yes indeed we are still slaves. Sin would still have dominion. Yet, God has made us new creations. He has put us under grace, so sin would not have dominion. The fact that sin doesn't have dominion means that is no longer is what we are inclined to.

 

[JGIG]

We have imputed righteousness, but not actual righteousness. Our spirit is righteous, but we, of ourselves, are not righteous because our body/soul is tainted with unrighteousness. We are clothed with Christ's righteousness through faith.

​

Scripture doesn't parse the righteousness of God the way you do. We are either righteous with the gift of God's righteousness or we're not:

21But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. (From Rom. 3)


7For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

20The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (From Rom. 5)


21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (From 2Cor. 5)

​

​

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-JGIG

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I think I understand the way you are seeing it HRFTD. And I think I understand how others are looking at it too. I don't see any horrid hereticalness anywhere. I need to come back and read at leisure when I'm not so rushed and see where the wreck happened. Good thread and topic budman. Not good what's happening but we can work it out, I'm sure of it. Got aa pot boiling over on stove gotta go be back tonight. Bear with and love one another. Even when someone rankles you or raises your fur a little with a remark.

I luv this word! hereticalness May I adopt it please?

Actually I like the whole phrase and see it might be infinitely useful on this forum.

Someone is always accusing but " I don't see any horrid hereticalness anywhere."

 

[maxwel]

The argument is one of propensity. HeRoseFromTheDead's words say that a believer's nature is unrighteousness, which means that their default acquiescence is to permit sin. It is who they are, after all. Yet, God tells us in His word through Paul to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God. That we are no longer slaves to sin. We have a new nature, we are a new creation. So our default, and through God's process of sanctification, is righteousness. Our propensity, our inclination, should be righteousness though this is hindered for different reasons (ignorance to the truth, habit, necessity of renewing the mind, etc).

The fuss then is not a proposal of suggestion, that one shouldn't sin, because of who we are in Christ, it no longer is who we are. We walk in righteousness, as it says in John, to not be deceived because the righteous commit righteousness. Paul wasn't telling people they shouldn't sin (only), as if to step up their game as it were, but informing them of who they are in Christ. Dead to sin and alive unto God. How do we live in sin, when we are dead to it? Wake up, awake to righteousness. God's grace isn't a license to sin (is the message).

So while we all agree that we shouldn't sin, the issue here was about propensity and inclination. Who are we in Christ? Are we still slaves to sin? If it is our nature, to be unrighteous, then yes indeed we are still slaves. Sin would still have dominion. Yet, God has made us new creations. He has put us under grace, so sin would not have dominion. The fact that sin doesn't have dominion means that is no longer is what we are inclined to.

So you agree that believers sin?
But you feel that although believers sin, we have no propensity, or disposition, toward sin in any way?

You sin, I sin, all believers sin...
but we have no propensity toward sin in any way?
It's just some strange, mysterious coincidence that we all sin?
It's just some strange, mysterious coincidence that none of us are sinlessly perfect?



It's just some strange, mysterious coincidence that we have no disposition toward sin, none at all, and yet not a single one of us has ever managed to be sinlessly perfect after becoming believers?

It's all just coincidence?








.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

OK, sorry, not trying to be confusing. I don't think I've said anything contradictory. I can agree that we have A righteous nature within us, which is the spirit of Christ, but I disagree that we ourselves - body, soul and spirit - are righteous. Does that make sense?

I didn't see anything wrong with what you posted in the first place. People can really take things the wrong way sometimes.
I understood you to mean the sinful human nature we are all born with (is unrighteous) Vs the new spirit nature God has planted in us. ( which is his imputed righteousness) and the two are in conflict. We FEEL it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought you were talking about this:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not to do what you want.

The Amplified
17 For the sinful nature has its desire which is opposed to the Spirit, and the [desire of the] Spirit opposes the [h] sinful nature; for these [two, the sinful nature and the Spirit] are in direct opposition to each other [continually in conflict], so that you [as believers] do not [always] do whatever [good things] you want to do.

[h] Lit flesh.

 

[Lewiz]

The Bible proves that those who fall away will be severed:
Heb 6:
1Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do, if God permits.4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

 

[joaniemarie]

I didn't say it's OK and I didn't say TO TELL A LIE -- I said TO TELL A WHITE LIE is different from committing adultery.

I seriously don't believe you are saying to tell lies Marcello so lets start there. Based on the Bible., I believe there is no difference where sin is concerned because Jesus died for every sin but more importantly He died for the penalty of sin that was put upon us all when Adam and Eve were in the garden. Sin passed on all the human race.

The more sin., the more confusion the more mess the more death. Consequences come from living a life of sin here on earth but those consequences do not come down as God's judgment on us because Jesus has already paid the price and made the ultimate sacrafice. We cannot be tried 2Xs for the same crime. (no double jeopordy)

So it's not the "sins" it's SIN. When we were saved., our sinful man born in Adam died on the cross and was crucified with Him. Gal.2:20 All sin the sin nature of man was crucified on the cross and is NO LONGER ABLE to throw us back into the grave. Jesus redeemed us. It's called "REDEMPTION" And it's a miracle.

But the echo - the memory - the PRESENCE - of sin is still here. The POWER of sin has been defeated by Jesus. It's vital to understand the difference so one can live free from the lying influences of sin. Do we take the simplicity of Romans 8:1-2 to heart? Do you believe there IS condemnation to those who are IN Christ Jesus? (question to all who read Romans 8:1-2)

Are you ever (not) IN Christ Jesus as a believer? I think each one of us has to answer that question for ourselves by the info in the Bible. I believe based on what the Bible says I am no longer condemned anymore. The price has been paid., there remains no more sacrafice for sin. Jesus paid it all.


Jesus has set us free from the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH. Now we (by faith) walk out that reality as born again creations IN Christ Jesus. It's called the spirit of life IN CHRIST JESUS.

So often Christians come here and try to explain how important it is to KNOW WHO WE ARE IN CHRIST JESUS. We are NEW CREATIONS now. Old things have actually passed away.... BEHOLD LOOK AT IT!! ALL THINGS HAVE BECOME NEW.

Now we are to walk IN HIM IN NEWNESS OF LIFE. Walk out the life of Christ in you., Christ in you., the hope of glory. So many verses come to mind when I think about the new birth and the truth of REDEMPTION. Jesus is our life now.

 

[maxwel]

Please note:
If I go after some of Ben's theological views,
that does not mean I'm going after Ben as a person.

Ben and I disagree on some things,
but I like Ben just fine.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I didn't see anything wrong with what you posted in the first place. People can really take things the wrong way sometimes.
I understood you to mean the sinful human nature we are all born with (is unrighteous) Vs the new spirit nature God has planted in us. ( which is his imputed righteousness) and the two are in conflict. We FEEL it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought you were talking about this:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not to do what you want.

The Amplified
17 For the sinful nature has its desire which is opposed to the Spirit, and the [desire of the] Spirit opposes the [h] sinful nature; for these [two, the sinful nature and the Spirit] are in direct opposition to each other [continually in conflict], so that you [as believers] do not [always] do whatever [good things] you want to do.

[h] Lit flesh.

Yep that's it. By faith we are able to overcome the longings of the flesh and do what is right.

 

[ColoradoGal]

I've heard this repeated time and again. While we won't lose salvation when we sin, God will, however, break fellowship with us until we "repent" and stop sinning.

Whoever told you that is VERY confused. It sounds like a hybrid between Catholicism and Christianity. The Bible simply states that we can be punished on earth for our sins, NOT that we lose fellowship, leave his Grace, or anything else. I'd suggest asking the next person that tells you that to substantiate their argument with scripture. I guarantee you that they will not be able to.

 

[UnderGrace]

We overcome the longings of the flesh by the riches of His grace.

Faith is being persuaded what God says is true, faith is the vehicle by which we draw from the Living Water, Jesus is always the object of our faith.

We are told to go to His grace and draw.

Yep that's it. By faith we are able to overcome the longings of the flesh and do what is right.

 

[joaniemarie]

Where does it say that our nature is righteousness? We have been given a new spirit that is no longer enslaved to the flesh, but we still have an unrighteous nature, otherwise we would never sin.

If you are born again you are a NEW CREATION IN CHRIST. OLD THINGS HAVE PASSED AWAY... It's our choice to choose to walk by faith and believe this reality in Christ or to deny it.

In Christ we are brand new. Our old manner of life from before we were saved.... how we conducted our lives before being saved has no power over us but what we ALLOW. Do we look back and see the way we once were without the life of Christ and try to resurrect a corpse? We can live here on earth by the flesh BUT it will kill our bodies and our minds...steal our joy in Christ and all our strength... but our new man IN CHRIST who is our life can not die. WE ALREADY DIED THAT DEATH. IT HAS NO POWER OVER US.

The Bible is clear and says to walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh because the flesh is totally against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh. The 2 cannot work in conjunction with one another.


There is a mixed opinion about whether the old man is still alive and well in the believer. I believe based on the Scriptures that our old man is dead-dead-dead. But like a bell in a tower that rang for many years once it's stopped has reverberations but no substance., so is the life of the flesh. It has no power to be spiritual. The flesh has to be controlled by the spirit now. We are not in a civil war. I believe Gal.2:20

[SUP]18 [/SUP]For if I [or any others who have taught that the observance of the Law of Moses is not essential to being justified by God should now by word or practice teach or intimate that it is essential to] build up again what I tore down, I prove myself a transgressor.
[SUP]
19 [/SUP]For I through the Law [under the operation of the curse of the Law] have [in Christ’s death for me] myself died to the Law and all the Law’s demands upon me, so that I may [henceforth] live to and for God.
[SUP]
20 [/SUP]I have been crucified with Christ [in Him I have shared His crucifixion]; it is no longer I who live, but Christ (the Messiah) lives in me; and the life I now live in the body I live by faith in (by adherence to and reliance on and complete trust in) the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So while we all agree that we shouldn't sin, the issue here was about propensity and inclination. Who are we in Christ? Are we still slaves to sin? If it is our nature, to be unrighteous, then yes indeed we are still slaves. Sin would still have dominion. Yet, God has made us new creations. He has put us under grace, so sin would not have dominion. The fact that sin doesn't have dominion means that is no longer is what we are inclined to.

Those who practice sin are slaves to sin. Nature has nothing to with it, unless of course someone doesn't have the divine nature to assist in overcoming the sinful nature.

It seems that what is missing from all of your rationalizations is faith. Faith is what allows us to overcome the sinful nature.

 

[joaniemarie]

That was unnecessary HeRoseFromTheDead.

Let me ask you, how can believers be unrighteous by nature and yet "they do not live in sin?" If it is your nature, its how you would act. A liar is someone who lies. It is their nature. If sin is our nature, then we would sin and only sin. Who has God called you to be? Who has He made you to be, in Christ?

Knowing that we should reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God, that sin shall not have dominion over us not being under the law but grace, what excuse can we make for sin? How are we who are dead to sin, live therein (as the apostle Paul says)? To say that our nature is unrighteous gives us an excuse, we might as well say, "God made me do it." Yet, we are called to walk in holiness and righteousness. We have been born-again, made new creations. No longer slaves to sin, but of righteousness. Using our members for righteousness unto God.

The doctrine you're espousing gives people an excuse. What I am proposing is that we awake to righteousness and sin not (though if we do sin, we have an Advocate with the Father). For you to define the believer as having the nature of unrighteousness, you leave them in bondage to sin and its dominion.

Amen to that Ben. A vital truth many Christians are not aware of or walking in the freedom of. To some it sounds un important but in actuality it's a vital part of how we learn to live and move and have our "being"... THAT IS IN Christ. Work out your own salvation... work OUT what JESUS HAS WORKED IN.

REDEMPTION


The Bible is clear... if you are IN Christ and He is IN YOU... (sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise) His SEED remains IN YOU and you CANNOT sin... What does that mean? It means you are no longer who you ONCE WERE-GUILTY headed for hell and judgment. YOU WERE ONCE DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SINS. NOW YOU ARE MADE ALIVE IN CHRIST.

GOD SEES YOU AS 100% RIGHTEOUS IN CHRIST. IMPUTATION.... REDEEMED.... MADE RIGHT. IN CHRIST JESUS.

You are a new creation. You have His seed in you and now you are called to grow and mature by the washing of the water of the Word. Growing up in Him. He is our Life., He is our Hope., our Shield., our Defense., our Shepherd. and so much more.

 

[BenFTW]

So you agree that believers sin?
But you feel that although believers sin, we have no propensity, or disposition, toward sin in any way?

You sin, I sin, all believers sin...
but we have no propensity toward sin in any way?
It's just some strange, mysterious coincidence that we all sin?
It's just some strange, mysterious coincidence that none of us are sinlessly perfect?



It's just some strange, mysterious coincidence that we have no disposition toward sin, none at all, and yet not a single one of us has ever managed to be sinlessly perfect after becoming believers?

It's all just coincidence?








.

I provided three reasons why believers still sin, in my previous post. I mentioned ignorance to the truth, habit, and a lack of renewal of the mind. These are only three, there are more. The presence of sin in the life of a believer doesn't negate the truth of victory over sin, provided in God's word through Christ (bringing about our new-birth). We cannot make human experience the standard of truth, for then faith is set aside.

That we are told not to sin, to walk righteously because you are dead to sin, means that our nature could not possibly be unrighteous after having been born-again. For as a duck quacks, so does an unrighteous nature sin. Yet, we have received a new nature. We have been given newness of life.

The point here is that HeRoseFromTheDead made a statement that believers, children of God, have a nature and it is unrighteousness (though they do not live in sin, he said). He didn't mention any duality, or both natures in this original post. He stated that we have an unrighteous nature. This is contrary to the call of holiness and righteousness.

Time is short, I am being pulled away from the PC to spend time with family, so I will be back to discuss this further.

 

[UnderGrace]

That"s right it is impossible to be Born Again.... Again.

We are only born again once.

To try and do so, like the Hebrews, means that the one sacrifice was not enough and they are trying to crucify Jesus again, which put Jesus and His work to open shame saying His death was insufficient to save from all sin.

This whole passage actually confirms we are secure in Christ once we are born again in Him which is eternal

So can I say busted now?

The Bible proves that those who fall away will be severed:
Heb 6:
1Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do, if God permits.4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That we are told not to sin, to walk righteously because you are dead to sin, means that our nature could not possibly be unrighteous after having been born-again. For as a duck quacks, so does an unrighteous nature sin. Yet, we have received a new nature. We have been given newness of life.

This is saying that righteousness is due to nature, not walking by faith. Adam had a righteous nature, yet sinned.