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Thread: A sad truth.

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    Default A sad truth.

    In order for a publisher of a Bible it needs to be copywrited... and in order for any book to be copywrited it needs to be unique (they have to use different words than anyone else before them) or it's considered plagiarized. ... the sad part is that... over time... this leads to a more watered down version of what God intended.

    I had this conversation with a pastor, and he added that some are worse than others... he called the "Message Bible" the "Massage Bible" because it had been so smoothed out that many of the deeper meanings God has for us were lost by it.

    But I believe even to degradation of God's word is part of the greater plan. Now the reading of scripture is a test for us to go through... to see if we are going to believe subtle falsehoods or seek revelation of God's truth for ourselves.

    The blunt honesty is... if you say, "they're all true."... then you're failing a test.

    Food for thought.

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    Senior Member HeRoseFromTheDead's Avatar
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    Default Re: A sad truth.

    That's why I use interlinear bibles. I only use translated bibles for quoting here, or the KJV when the holy spirit brings a verse to remembrance that I can search for in bible software (I grew up on the KJV)
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    This is the work of God: that you believe into the one [the father] set apart. John 6:29

    Interlinear Bible ... Interlinear LXX ... BibleHub Interlinear ... theWord ... Azal River (Zechariah 14:5) ... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    Default Re: A sad truth.

    Good call
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    Default Re: A sad truth.

    Have you ever wondered if that is a test that God wants in every Bible? ... I mean.. is it possible that the true seekers of truth (who will be few and will be persecuted) will only rely on the Holy Spirit in their heart and not assume someone else got it right when they put things down on paper? For example, in 1Samuel 16 we see in many verses that God sent an evil spirit to torment Saul... but does God have evil minions? ... and will we persecute those Christians that say, "No... God wouldn't do that... but I won't stop reading because a test (a falsehood) was allowed into the Bible?

    Will we persecute those Christians and say that they aren't Christian? Is this another test we might be failing?
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    Senior Member posthuman's Avatar
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    Default Re: A sad truth.

    rather than doubt everything that's written, and imagine for myself what i think it *should* say based on my own feelings and thoughts, i just don't read 'the message' and i encourage people to burn their copy of it, if they have one.
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    good news gives health to the bones
    (Proverbs 15:30)

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    Default Re: A sad truth.

    Sorry.. that was a duplicate... and i don't know how to delete it. I'm new here.
    Last edited by Jason1975; 1 Week Ago at 10:08 AM.

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    Senior Member HeRoseFromTheDead's Avatar
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    Default Re: A sad truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason1975 View Post
    Good call
    If you're ever interested, there are links in my signature to two very good software versions (both free). TheWord software (also linked to) has the Apostolic Bible Polyglot interlinear (as an add-on module). I don't know what the other software bibles have.
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    This is the work of God: that you believe into the one [the father] set apart. John 6:29

    Interlinear Bible ... Interlinear LXX ... BibleHub Interlinear ... theWord ... Azal River (Zechariah 14:5) ... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    Default Re: A sad truth.

    I don't mean we should doubt everything.. but pray about everything.

    Every word has purpose... but I believe sometimes the purpose is "the test"... and those verses in 1Samuel is, in part, God seeing if we will believe he has workers of evil doing His bidding.

    If we simply accept it because the wisdom of man says, "you have to believe it because it says it"... will we?
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    Senior Member posthuman's Avatar
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    Default Re: A sad truth.

    all of the Hebrew/Aramaic and Greek the Bible is translated from into other languages is completely public domain without any claim of copyright. maybe He wishes for us to look into the Word in the language it was originally given.

    so for example if you are puzzled by 1 Samuel 16 as you read it in English, perhaps you should find out if the Hebrew says anything substantially different? and if it does not - what will you think, that there is a problem with the original text? or that there is a problem with what you think about it?
    good news gives health to the bones
    (Proverbs 15:30)

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    Default Re: A sad truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason1975 View Post
    In order for a publisher of a Bible it needs to be copywrited... and in order for any book to be copywrited it needs to be unique (they have to use different words than anyone else before them) or it's considered plagiarized. ... the sad part is that... over time... this leads to a more watered down version of what God intended.

    I had this conversation with a pastor, and he added that some are worse than others... he called the "Message Bible" the "Massage Bible" because it had been so smoothed out that many of the deeper meanings God has for us were lost by it.

    But I believe even to degradation of God's word is part of the greater plan. Now the reading of scripture is a test for us to go through... to see if we are going to believe subtle falsehoods or seek revelation of God's truth for ourselves.

    The blunt honesty is... if you say, "they're all true."... then you're failing a test.

    Food for thought.
    the blunt honesty is if you say one translation can accurately translate the complexity of koine Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic is being ignorant.
    Last edited by wanderer6059; 1 Week Ago at 10:26 AM.

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    Senior Member posthuman's Avatar
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    Default Re: A sad truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason1975 View Post
    Sorry.. that was a duplicate... and i don't know how to delete it. I'm new here.

    you get 5 minutes after you make a post in which you can still edit it. at the bottom of your post there will be an "edit post" button ((that goes away 5 mins later))


    to delete a recent post, hit that button, then :

    Capture.jpg



    people complain about the '5 minute rule' often, but it's there for good reason. it'd be a mess if people are debating and arguing and you could go back and change what you said days ago so the other person looks like they're lying about what you said, for example, you know?

    but you can take as long as you want writing a post & revising & editing & formatting it. just use the "go advanced" button instead of "post quick reply"

    Capture.JPG

    then you can work on writing it, and use the 'preview post' button to make sure it looks like how you want it to look, as many times and for as long as you like. no time limit.
    make sure pictures show up, links work, text is right color, etc. read and revise all day if you want to

    Capture.JPG

    the 5-min time limit only applies once you've finally hit 'submit reply'
    if you want to have a post deleted after those 5 minutes, you have to PM a moderator, who has rights to do so for you.




    welcome to the forums!
    good news gives health to the bones
    (Proverbs 15:30)

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    Default Re: A sad truth.

    I will check them out thanks :-)
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    Default Re: A sad truth.

    Thank you :-)
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    Default Re: A sad truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason1975 View Post
    I don't mean we should doubt everything.. but pray about everything.

    Every word has purpose... but I believe sometimes the purpose is "the test"... and those verses in 1Samuel is, in part, God seeing if we will believe he has workers of evil doing His bidding.

    If we simply accept it because the wisdom of man says, "you have to believe it because it says it"... will we?
    my thought is that, at some point yes, because it is what the scripture says, we must believe it, because i believe the scripture is true.
    maybe individual words and phrases are handled poorly in my language, maybe errors have been made copying it over the centuries of years and certain words are not quite as they should be. those are small things that do not generally change what the message of the text is. a lot of that kind of error, we can actually do a pretty good job of identifying, because we've found lots of copies in Greek for example, and can roughly place them in a timeline, and recognize where some mistake was made copying, so that it shows up in some copies but not in others. or where someone wrote a note in a margin, and the next monk copied the note along with the text, and it worked its way into the text, or a line was missed and disappeared from later copies, for example.

    when i am puzzled by something, like 1 Samuel 16 for example, then yes, one of the first things i will do is check other translations in languages i can read, and see what do they say? i will look for the passage in the original Hebrew, and even though i don't understand Hebrew, i can see if the words there are open to some interpretation, or are they clear? do the words i'm reading in English exist in the original text at all, or has there been some paraphrasing? are there variants here - is this a place where one copy has a word that another copy doesn't?

    yes, i do get suspicious about translation, and i make my best effort to look into it. i know that i am not really qualified to make scholarly judgements about it, but i can find out if people way more qualified than me have disagreed about it, and maybe i can see one of their views making more sense to me.

    but it's dangerous; i shouldn't reject what i read just because i don't understand it. i should accept what is really the most accurate version of it in my language. and i should understand that i'm reading it in my language, not the language it's written in originally -- and that with translation from language to language, there is a good chance information can be lost.

    yes, i do get suspicious of translation and try to find out whether it really says what i'm reading it saying. it's very dangerous to be in the position where i am willing to cross out anything in the Bible and replace it with what i think it should say, because i think it's probably all pretty much corrupted and twisted. to put myself in the position where i think i know better than what it says.

    you know?




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    good news gives health to the bones
    (Proverbs 15:30)

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    Senior Member posthuman's Avatar
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    Default Re: A sad truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason1975 View Post
    I
    I had this conversation with a pastor, and he added that some are worse than others... he called the "Message Bible" the "Massage Bible" because it had been so smoothed out that many of the deeper meanings God has for us were lost by it.

    But I believe even to degradation of God's word is part of the greater plan. Now the reading of scripture is a test for us to go through... to see if we are going to believe subtle falsehoods or seek revelation of God's truth for ourselves.

    i agree.

    versions like the 'NLT' and that 'message' thing are common, and while the 'message' is pretty obviously a bunch of hooey, the NLT in my opinion is also full of ________ but not *quite* as blatantly.
    and what's weird is i know people who use it all the time, exclusively, and even though we study together and i point out how it says things that are completely wrong as far as being faithful to the original text, and even how those inaccuracies and paraphrasing wind up making the scripture say something that it doesn't really say if you read it literally, they keep on using it.

    it's subtle, and it's troubling. still, you know, people read much more accurate versions and come away teaching things that the Bible really doesn't say either!

    we really do need the Spirit, to understand what we read. God has to open our eyes, or we remain blind -- and that's His plan, as He has willed it, so that it's by His power, and to His glory, not by ours, and not to our praise at all
    good news gives health to the bones
    (Proverbs 15:30)

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    Default Re: A sad truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason1975 View Post
    I will check them out thanks :-)
    Also, biblehub.com has an interlinear and a neat feature where you can examine each NT verse in Greek in detail (not sure about Hebrew). Just type in a verse, and then click on "Interlinear" or "Greek" in the top (sorta) right.

    Here's an example > John 1:1 Greek Text Analysis
    posthuman likes this.
    This is the work of God: that you believe into the one [the father] set apart. John 6:29

    Interlinear Bible ... Interlinear LXX ... BibleHub Interlinear ... theWord ... Azal River (Zechariah 14:5) ... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    Default Re: A sad truth.

    The glad truth is that the understanding only comes from God and not an interpretation - do you honestly think that the 1st century people who witnessed these things and were spoken to in their own, original language did better than us?

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    Default Re: A sad truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead View Post
    Also, biblehub.com has an interlinear and a neat feature where you can examine each NT verse in Greek in detail (not sure about Hebrew). Just type in a verse, and then click on "Interlinear" or "Greek" in the top (sorta) right.

    Here's an example > John 1:1 Greek Text Analysis
    It does the same for Hebrew, a very useful resource!

    But I've been told by people here who know about these languages that biblehub's Greek/Hebrew analysis pages sometimes have errors in them. Or at least, what they put as literal definitions in their tables are using resources like Strongs that aren't always accurate.
    good news gives health to the bones
    (Proverbs 15:30)

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    Default Re: A sad truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead View Post
    That's why I use interlinear bibles. I only use translated bibles for quoting here, or the KJV when the holy spirit brings a verse to remembrance that I can search for in bible software (I grew up on the KJV)
    The 1611 KJV actually is almost interlinear. Many use a false Greek

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    Default Re: A sad truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason1975 View Post
    Have you ever wondered if that is a test that God wants in every Bible? ... I mean.. is it possible that the true seekers of truth (who will be few and will be persecuted) will only rely on the Holy Spirit in their heart and not assume someone else got it right when they put things down on paper? For example, in 1Samuel 16 we see in many verses that God sent an evil spirit to torment Saul... but does God have evil minions? ... and will we persecute those Christians that say, "No... God wouldn't do that... but I won't stop reading because a test (a falsehood) was allowed into the Bible?

    Will we persecute those Christians and say that they aren't Christian? Is this another test we might be failing?
    A lot of so called translation problems or misunderstandings are cleared up when we let Scripture interpret Scripture. So for example regarding your passage above, we read in Job, in detail, how it is that God 'sends' satan to torment Job. It was satan's desire all along but God 'allowed' satan up to a point.
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