Was Jesus really speaking of amniotic fluid?

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DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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#1
When Jesus was teaching Nicodemus on the issue of being born again, were the two "must" events He spoke of natural childbirth and spiritual birth?

Was Jesus really telling him that unless one goes through the amniotic fluid they cannot be born again?

Is this how the bible expresses natural childbirth? What does this mean for the souls of children who are murdered in the womb during abortions? Are there any groups that use the phrase "born of water" to refer to natural childbirth?

Jesus clearly states that there are two "musts". Is the water "must" truly amniotic fluid and not the waters of baptism?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#2
Some would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (verse 4) and with "flesh" (verse 6). According to that interpretation, Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is, of course, accompanied by amniotic "water"); the second is Spirit.

Have you considered living water? Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" in John 3:5. He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. *Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT. *Did you see that?

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of one becoming born again. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water.

In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#3
That which is born of flesh (represented by water) is flesh, but that which is born of spirit (God) is spirit.

Jesus is explaining how to be born again, you must be born of spirit, if your just born of flesh, its not enough.

If jesus wanted water to equal baptism he would have said so later, but what did jesus say we nee dto do to be born again? For god so lve the world, that he gave his only son, that whoever believes shall never die but has eternal life (born again) again, no mention of baptism
 
Feb 28, 2016
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#4
JOHN 3:3.
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,
he cannot see The Kingdom of God.

1COR. 15:50.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit The Kingdom of God;
neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,426
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#5
Was Jesus really telling him that unless one goes through the amniotic fluid they cannot be born again?
No Jesus was certainly NOT speaking about childbirth and amniotic fluid. He had already dismissed childbirth as "that which is of the flesh is flesh" (the body and natural childbirth). Meaning it has absolutely nothing to do with the New Birth.

When Christ said "water" and "Spirit" He was speaking about the two SUPERNATURAL agents which produce the New Birth. "Water " is a metaphor for the Word of God, and in this case the Gospel -- which is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16). And Spirit is the Holy Spirit who regenerates the soul and spirit. How do we know "water" actually means the Gospel (not water baptism)? Right here:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. (1 Peter 1:23-25).

Please note the contrast: "corruptible seed" (natural birth) v "incorruptible seed" (the Word of God)

 
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Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
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#6
JOHN 3:3.
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,
he cannot see The Kingdom of God.
Wouldn't that suggest that unless a man could describe what he saw then he hasn't been born again? Sure it would and that is the reason I get a chuckle out of the 'it is within you' responses from those who claim to be born again. Yes it is so how can anyone respond other than to say "Yes it was" but then again, I don't see how a person being honest and saying I haven't seen the kingdom of God is anything other that a reflection of a man who the Kingdom of God has come upon.

While I wouldn't question anyone's claim to have been born again, since you wouldn't have read the Bible unless you already knew the truth since no lie is of the truth.

Personally, I would say that I was blinded by the light, wrapped up like a deuce another running in the night considering what some might hear in 1 Tim 6:16 which others see in the Manfred's Mann Earth Band. But then again if one is going to lie about being born again it is extremely helpful to know the truth because it makes it oh so much more believable since there is no reason to lie (see Luke 11:20) because it written let God be true and all men be liars.
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
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#7
Scripture answers itself. So let's take a look here. "MUST" means salvation depends on it. We must be born of water and the Spirit. So what we must do is consider all the kinds of water that the Scriptures mention, since scriptures back up other scriptures in harmony. OK, so let's list waters...

Water from the sea
Water from amniotic fluid
Water of Life (Jesus)
Living Water (Jesus/Word of God
Waters (multitudes of people)
Sky

(If you know any other relevant waters, please mention it)

OK so now we must take out of the list any not mentioned in scripture. That would be amniotic fluid. It makes no sense anyways. Only modern day language calls it water- but it is not water any more than blood, or any other bodily fluid.

Moving on, we are not physically nor spiritually born from the sky or from multitudes of people (only a mother and father), so those come off the list as well. So what we have left is Jesus, the Word (same), and physical water...

We were already born physically, so to be born again of both water and the Spirit means to be spiritually born of both water and the Spirit. There is no question that Jesus is Living Water that we cannot spiritually live without. Jesus told the woman at the well, "This water will make you thirst again, but I can give Living Water." He was speaking of Himself. So how do we get this Living Water? ...

Well Jesus is that water, so we must be in Him to have that water of life. How do we then get into Christ, since those in Christ will be saved? The bible mentions only one thing that puts us in Christ- we are baptized into Christ. (Romans 6:3). How? Jesus showed us how. He did not get baptized to wash away His sins, He had none. He did it because we must follow His lead. Remember, when a command of God uses the word 'must' our salvation depends on it.

How did Jesus get baptized? Did He say a sinners prayer? No. Did He simply have faith that God exists? No. Was He sprinkled with water? No. Scriptures say He came up out of the water. That does not happen with sprinkling. What happened next? The Holy Spirit came. And what did Peter say? "Repent and be baptised all of you, and you will receive the Holy Spirit." Do not get tripped up on receiving the Holy Spirit before or after baptism. Having the Holy Spirit is not salvation, having Christ's blood is salvation. Peter says we will receive it, he doesn't say when.

Did speaking face to face with Jesus save Paul? No, because Jesus told him to go into the city where he will be told what he must do. Was Paul told to fast or pray? No, that is not what saved him. Fasting, praying, being prayed for, being healed, having faith- none of these things saved Paul, so what did? What was he told he must do? Ananias said "What are you waiting for, arise, be baptised and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Philippe and the Ethiopian Eunuch stopped where there was much water, so that he can be baptised. Why did Philip disappear after? Because that was it, what needed to be accomplished. It was not faith, not studying, that saved the Eunuch. He was born again by water. Which water? There is nothing magical about physical water that saves our souls. However, we are in physical bodies- therefore in order to obey God spiritually it sometimes requires what we do physically.

Please understand, water baptism saves us, but only because it is when we come in contact with Living Water (baptised into Christ). During baptism God performs circumcision of the heart with Christ's blood. The ark saved Noah, but not before building it and stepping into it. If he did not build it or go into it he would not be saved by it. In the same way, being dunked under water does not save us itself, but obeying God to do so puts us in Christ where we are saved.

The bible says that the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It also says that we must obey the gospel. "With flames of fire (hell) He will take vengeance on those who know not God and who obey not the gospel of His Son." (Whoever does not call that salvation-dependant, wow, just wow). So what does this mean? Only martyrs for Christ will be saved? Must we die on a cross as He did? The answer to this is in Romans 6. It says 'like this', and to what does that refer? Baptism. If we join Him in His death like this (baptized into Christ's death), then we will join Him in His resurrection.

Baptism is a death, burial, and resurrection. Aft
er being water baptized, Jesus said He had a baptism to undergo, and how greatly distressed He was until it was accomplished. Who gets that stressed about water baptism? No, He was speaking of His death. When we get baptised (born again) we die to ourself, bury our sinful self in the watery grave, and are raised to newness of life.



 
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Sep 4, 2012
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#8
Well Jesus is that water, so we must be in Him to have that water of life. How do we then get into Christ, since those in Christ will be saved? The bible mentions only one thing that puts us in Christ- we are baptized into Christ. (Romans 6:3). How? Jesus showed us how. He did not get baptized to wash away His sins, He had none. He did it because we must follow His lead. Remember, when a command of God uses the word 'must' our salvation depends on it.
There is something to be said for this. John, the greatest Levite who ever lived, transferred the priesthood to Jesus when he baptized him after the pattern of commissioning Levite priests into service by washing them with water at the door of the tabernacle (Exodus 40:12). Since believers are priests, water baptism appears to be the means by which they are commissioned into service in the order of Melchizedek priesthood.
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
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#9
Would you drink a glass of amniotic fluid? No, why? Because it is not water. We may call it water, but it is not water, it is bodily fluid.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#10
Wouldn't that suggest that unless a man could describe what he saw then he hasn't been born again? Sure it would and that is the reason I get a chuckle out of the 'it is within you' responses from those who claim to be born again. Yes it is so how can anyone respond other than to say "Yes it was" but then again, I don't see how a person being honest and saying I haven't seen the kingdom of God is anything other that a reflection of a man who the Kingdom of God has come upon.

While I wouldn't question anyone's claim to have been born again, since you wouldn't have read the Bible unless you already knew the truth since no lie is of the truth.

Personally, I would say that I was blinded by the light, wrapped up like a deuce another running in the night considering what some might hear in 1 Tim 6:16 which others see in the Manfred's Mann Earth Band. But then again if one is going to lie about being born again it is extremely helpful to know the truth because it makes it oh so much more believable since there is no reason to lie (see Luke 11:20) because it written let God be true and all men be liars.
So what are you saying?

There is no such thing as being born again?

Or you think the Light being spoken of in 1 Tim 6:16 is the Kingdom too?
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
369
83
#11
There is something to be said for this. John, the greatest Levite who ever lived, transferred the priesthood to Jesus when he baptized him after the pattern of commissioning Levite priests into service by washing them with water at the door of the tabernacle (Exodus 40:12). Since believers are priests, water baptism appears to be the means by which they are commissioned into service in the order of Melchizedek priesthood.


Yes! Now here is someone who knows what they are talking about. The physical things in the Old Testament represented the spiritual things. The tabernacle was a physical copy of the spiritual layout. You had to wash (baptism) to get into the holy place (church/Christ’s body). Once inside you ate the bread (Lord’s Supper). And Jesus took away the dividing curtain so that those in the holy place (church) could enter the most holy place (heaven).
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#12
Yes! Now here is someone who knows what they are talking about. The physical things in the Old Testament represented the spiritual things. The tabernacle was a physical copy of the spiritual layout. You had to wash (baptism) to get into the holy place (church/Christ’s body). Once inside you ate the bread (Lord’s Supper). And Jesus took away the dividing curtain so that those in the holy place (church) could enter the most holy place (heaven).
And it wasn't just washing with water. The Levite priests were also clothed in garments of righteousness and anointed with oil (Leviticus 40:13-15). When Jesus came out of the water he was anointed with holy spirit and declared righteous by GOD - "And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
 
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DustyRhodes

Senior Member
Dec 30, 2016
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#13
I don't believe that Jesus would be talking in contradictions.
What He was telling Nicodemus who was a Pharisee and as
such beholden to the law. Simply you cannot be beholden
to the law and at the same time be guided by the Spirit.
In that context being born again means lose the laws and
inherit grace.
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
887
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#14
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The use of “spirit” denotes Jesus’ spirit.

The use of “Spirit” denotes the Spirit of God.

The word “quickeneth” denotes the active power that makes a dead thing live.

The flesh is not profitable because it is dead, in that, it is not of the Spirit.

Jesus shows this by means of his first miracle done at Cana.

The six water pots denote the heart of every man.
The pots being empty denote repentant man.
The cleansing of the pots denotes the effective washing of man’s heart by the word of God. ( the words of Jesus)
The filling of the pots with pure water denotes the reception into the heart of the words of Jesus.
That the pots are filled to the brim denotes complete faith in only the word of God, leaving no room for the words of others nor one’s own words.
The new wine denotes the spirit of the born again man.
That the new wine came at the end of the marriage feast denotes Jesus’ words coming after 4,000 years.
The ruler of the feast is the Devil.
The feast is man enjoying life in this world.
The marriage denotes the soul of man married to his own flesh.
The miracle denotes the power of the Spirit giving birth to spirit, at Jesus’ command.
The words of Mary denote that Jesus’ command was given only when God gave allowance.
The servants denote the function of the faithful in bring souls to Christ.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
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#15
Jesus is speaking of both the physical and non-physical aspects of being born again, water and the spirit. It is through water and the spirit that we are born again and saved. It is the sensibilities of the "faith alone" crowds that fight this simple understanding. They cannot see pass their self-imposed premise that God would never require a physical event on our part to happen in order to be saved. Even willing to come up with the most absurd reasoning to deny the obvious.

I could just imagine this logic being used by the Hebrews when told to cover their door posts with blood as protection against the angel of death.

"Put down that brush! Your faith alone will protect you. Don't you know that if you brush that blood on your door posts it will mean you earned your protection."

Jesus telling Nicodemus that one must be born of water and the spirit is no different then when He said whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mark 16:16)
 
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Exegete

Guest
#16
Regarding the account of Nicodemus, the early church firmly (and according to one source, universally) believed - and taught - that Jesus was referring to water baptism.

"[Scripture says], 'And he dipped himself seven times in the Jordan.' It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized. Rather, this was a symbol for us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean from our old transgressions by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord. We are spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, just as the Lord has declared: 'Unless a man is born again through water and the Spirit, he will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.' " Irenaeus, writing about AD 180

Often times, it is best to go to early church writings. These are the people who learned either from the disciples directly or from the students of the disciples. If you disagree with this view I have to ask: How can you say you know better when they had the original sources?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#17
Regarding the account of Nicodemus, the early church firmly (and according to one source, universally) believed - and taught - that Jesus was referring to water baptism.
The "early church" started introducing changes to Bible doctrine almost immediately after the apostle passed on. The water of baptism cannot possibly wash away sins, therefore it cannot possibly produce the New Birth. It is the blood of Christ applied to the soul which washes away our sins and our guilt.

The early church should have understood that it is THE GOSPEL which is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16), and the Gospel is the "seed" of the New Birth (1 Pet 1:23-25). This is the "water" of the Word of God. Do we even comprehend that the Word of God is quick (alive) and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword (Heb 4:12,13)?

At the same time it is God the Holy Spirit who regenerates a sinner, therefore he or she is born of the Spirit, born from above, born of God, and born again (Tit 3:4-7).
 
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Exegete

Guest
#18
"In short, baptism in early Christianity was the supernatural rite of initiation by which a new believer passed from being the old man of the flesh to being a newly reborn man of the spirit. However, please don't think their practice was some empty ritual. the early Christians didn't separate baptism from faith and repentance. Baptism wasn't some magical ritual that could regenerate a person if it wasn't accompanied by faith and repentance. They specifically taught that God was under no necessity to grant forgiveness of sins simply because a person went through the motions of baptism. A faithless person was not reborn through water baptism."

From "Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up" by David Bercot (page 80)
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
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#19
The "early church" started introducing changes to Bible doctrine almost immediately after the apostle passed on. The water of baptism cannot possibly wash away sins, therefore it cannot possibly produce the New Birth. It is the blood of Christ applied to the soul which washes away our sins and our guilt.

The early church should have understood that it is THE GOSPEL which is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16), and the Gospel is the "seed" of the New Birth (1 Pet 1:23-25). This is the "water" of the Word of God. Do we even comprehend that the Word of God is quick (alive) and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword (Heb 4:12,13)?

At the same time it is God the Holy Spirit who regenerates a sinner, therefore he or she is born of the Spirit, born from above, born of God, and born again (Tit 3:4-7).
The "early church" started introducing changes to Bible doctrine almost immediately after the apostle passed on.
But not you, of course.

The water of baptism cannot possibly wash away sins, therefore it cannot possibly produce the New Birth. It is the blood of Christ applied to the soul which washes away our sins and our guilt.
"water of baptism", "wash away sins", "new birth" or "blood of Christ". These are simply figures of speech and certainly not literal. You cannot build a theology on the turn of a phrase. The ordained act of baptism is the moment of the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) regardless of how your decide to label it.

The early church should have understood that it is THE GOSPEL which is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16), and the Gospel is the "seed" of the New Birth (1 Pet 1:23-25). This is the "water" of the Word of God. Do we even comprehend that the Word of God is quick (alive) and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword (Heb 4:12,13)?

At the same time it is God the Holy Spirit who regenerates a sinner, therefore he or she is born of the Spirit, born from above, born of God, and born again
(Tit 3:4-7).
This is nothing more then generalities and does not disconnect baptism with the remission of sins.
 

Musicus

Senior Member
Oct 26, 2017
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#20
I noticed something:

3Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[SUP]a[/SUP] ”

note a says - also from above (NIV)

The Greek word translated to again is ανωθεν which seems to more correctly translate to above, or from above.


Then Jesus repeats Himself, but adds clarity:

5Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

so that from above = water and Spirit.

But it could also be that He was referring to 2 different things, since in the first He says "...see the kingdom...", and in the 2nd, "...enter the kingdom...".