Faith and Deeds

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,034
13,041
113
58
No amount of works justifies that a person has put their belief in the shed blood of Jesus Christ for sin.
So let's hear YOUR interpretation of James 2:21-24. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6 and James said he was justified by works in James 2:21.

Yet James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,610
3,528
113
So let's hear YOUR interpretation of James 2:21-24. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6 and James said he was justified by works in James 2:21.

Yet James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
Abraham's justification was applied in Genesis 15, but that justification was not fulfilled until Genesis 22. That is the point James is making.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James is showing us that Genesis 15:6 was not fulfilled until Abraham offered up Isaac. Remember mailmandan, that the one Abraham was proving himself to on top of that mountain was God. He was not justified before men up there as most commenters falsely claim. On that mountain God said, "now I KNOW that thou fearest God, SEEING thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." Genesis 22:12

The question James is asking in James 2 is not "will works follow faith?" The question is "can faith save him?". James 2:14

Paul makes it clear that the faith that saved me has no works attached to it whatsoever. In fact, the faith that saved me was not my faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ! Abraham did not have the faith of Christ. It wasn't even available to him according to Paul in Galatians 3.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
Amen! If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works (James 2:14), then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not genuine faith.


I would say we cannot separate works from faith.It's all one thing as a labor of love

Faith is a work that God works in us so that we then can believe Him not seen.


If we walked by sight after the temporal things of this world then that could be true.

I would ask evident to who? Remember God said to the Israelites; ""when I see the blood". Man looks on the outside but God looks on the heart. He is able to finish the good work of salvation that he began in us

The Jew that required a sign of evidence that they performed something before they would believe. They stumbled over the cross. All Saints die not receiving the promise of their new body. The kingdom of God does not come by observation but rather we walk by faith the unseen promise of our new bodies.

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;1 Cor
 

Lewiz

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2018
346
22
18
Works-salvationists try to argue that the Bible teaches man is saved by "these" works (good works/works of obedience/works of faith) but just not by "those" works (works of the law). Yet when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, we cannot dissect good works/works of obedience/works of faith from the law (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; James 2:15-16; Matthew 22:37-40).
Not true. Straw man argument
 

Lewiz

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2018
346
22
18
Justification through the faith of Christ has been erased from all modern translations. This put the faith on the individual which must be demonstrated through works of obedience. Faith without works is dead. Man is now put in a dilemma.
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
By the faith of Jesus Christ.
--The preposition "by" occurs five times in this verse. In every case except the present it is represented by the same word in Greek. There is, however, no substantial difference of meaning; the only difference is that in the other cases stress is laid rather upon the cause, here rather upon the means."Faith of Jesus Christ" means, as we are more accustomed to say, "faith in Jesus Christ."

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
but by—Translate, "But only (in no other way save) through faith in Jesus Christ," as the MEAN and instrument of justification.

NASB Lexicon
[TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"]in Christ[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Ἰησοῦ[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]iēsou[/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5547[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]the Anointed One, Messiah, Christ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]from chrió
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

This sounds like a KJV only doctrine
 

Lewiz

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2018
346
22
18
Did you read post #42 and what I said in post #60? It's not a straw man argument and is absolutely true. Prior to my conversion several years ago, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I also defined faith "as" obedience/works and believed that salvation was by faith "plus works." I've heard this same argument from numerous works-salvationists on multiple Christian forums.
42 is true, & 60 is you quoting 42, So here we are waay later & you're still bringing up one measly post. back near the beginning.

That kinda makes you look guilty of purposely using this as a strawman argument.
 

Lewiz

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2018
346
22
18
so did they demonstrate it because they had it, or because they did. It have it

and are we saved because we have it, or do not have It?

salvation and works are byproducts, not interdependant on each other, they are interependent on faith,
Maybe you ought to say what you mean & mean what you say instead of using confusing phrases.

What exactly are you trying to say here?
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
113
Maybe you ought to say what you mean & mean what you say instead of using confusing phrases.

What exactly are you trying to say here?
When I read those confusing phrases I always look for what they're trying not to say.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,610
3,528
113
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
By the faith of Jesus Christ.
--The preposition "by" occurs five times in this verse. In every case except the present it is represented by the same word in Greek. There is, however, no substantial difference of meaning; the only difference is that in the other cases stress is laid rather upon the cause, here rather upon the means."Faith of Jesus Christ" means, as we are more accustomed to say, "faith in Jesus Christ."

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
but by—Translate, "But only (in no other way save) through faith in Jesus Christ," as the MEAN and instrument of justification.

NASB Lexicon
[TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"]in Christ[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Ἰησοῦ[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]iēsou[/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5547[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]the Anointed One, Messiah, Christ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]from chrió
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

This sounds like a KJV only doctrine
The Greek from which the English is translated is the phrase ‘Pistis Christou’, which is a genitive, and in the context, a subjective genitive, meaning that the faith spoken of is that belonging to the subject, even Jesus Christ. It is His faith which is in view here. In now way is it referring to an individual's faith in Christ.

The evidence for the wording being a subjective genitive, referring to faith belonging to, and personal to, Jesus Christ, is backed up by similar grammar used elsewhere in the New Testament. There are many other verses referring to things which are personal to Christ or to God (eg. The ‘hand of God’, the ‘face of Jesus Christ’, etc.) which are worded in identical grammar in the Greek as with ‘Pistis Christou’ (the Greek construction used in Romans 3:22 and Galatians 2:16, meaning “faith of Christ”).
 

Lewiz

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2018
346
22
18
Amen! If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works (James 2:14), then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not genuine faith.
So you're saying no one can start righteous(by grace thru faith), & change by showing empty faith?

I hear the warnings to us(change what you believe before it's too late)that we're not currently saved even though we believed in Christ in the beginning just like you did.

You can't have it both ways and judge us as unsaved.

I didn't hear you say that, but I saw you liking someone else's post that did.

So you believe it too.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
113
The Greek from which the English is translated is the phrase ‘Pistis Christou’, which is a genitive, and in the context, a subjective genitive, meaning that the faith spoken of is that belonging to the subject, even Jesus Christ. It is His faith which is in view here. In now way is it referring to an individual's faith in Christ.

The evidence for the wording being a subjective genitive, referring to faith belonging to, and personal to, Jesus Christ, is backed up by similar grammar used elsewhere in the New Testament. There are many other verses referring to things which are personal to Christ or to God (eg. The ‘hand of God’, the ‘face of Jesus Christ’, etc.) which are worded in identical grammar in the Greek as with ‘Pistis Christou’ (the Greek construction used in Romans 3:22 and Galatians 2:16, meaning “faith of Christ”).
The faith of Christ is the words that he and his apostles spoke. It is the way, the path, the faith of Christ.
 

Lewiz

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2018
346
22
18
So let's hear YOUR interpretation of James 2:21-24. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6 and James said he was justified by works in James 2:21.

Yet James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
Galatians 3:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

[HR][/HR]James 2:23 (AMP)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And [so] the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed in (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on) God, and this was accounted to him as righteousness (as conformity to God's will in thought and deed), and he was called God's friend.

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:3 (Interlinear)

[TABLE]
[TR="class: ms"]
[TH]?????s??[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: ms-trans"]
[TD]elogisthe[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: morph"]
[TD]VIAP--3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: def"]
[TD]IT WAS ACCOUNTED[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: root"]
[TD]??????µa?[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: strongs"]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: audio"]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:5 (Interlinear)
[TABLE]
[TR="class: ms"]
[TH]?????eta?[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: ms-trans"]
[TD]logizetai[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: morph"]
[TD]VIPP--3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: def"]
[TD]IS ACCOUNTED[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: root"]
[TD]??????µa?[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: strongs"]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: audio"]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:9 (Interlinear)

[TABLE]
[TR="class: ms"]
[TH]?????s??[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: ms-trans"]
[TD]Elogisthe[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: morph"]
[TD]VIAP--3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: def"]
[TD][SUP]3[/SUP]WAS ACCOUNTED[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: root"]
[TD]??????µa?[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: strongs"]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: audio"]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:11 (Interlinear)

[TABLE]
[TR="class: ms"]
[TH]
[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: ms-trans"]
[TD]logisthenai[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: morph"]
[TD]VNAPA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: def"]
[TD][SUP]3[/SUP]TO BE ACCOUNTED[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: root"]
[TD]??????µa?[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: strongs"]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: audio"]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:22 (Interlinear)

[TABLE]
[TR="class: ms"]
[TH]?????s??[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: ms-trans"]
[TD]elogisthe[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: morph"]
[TD]VIAP--3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: def"]
[TD]IT WAS ACCOUNTED[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: root"]
[TD]??????µa?[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: strongs"]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: audio"]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:5 (MaceNT)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] whereas he that trusts in God to be made righteous, tho' he has not done such actions, shall find his faith accounted as righteousness.

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:9 (MaceNT)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Is this happiness then for the circumcised only, or for the uncircumcised also? for we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:22 (MaceNT)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] and therefore it was accounted to him for righteousness.

[HR][/HR]Genesis 15:6 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:3 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:9 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:22 (NKJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness."

[HR][/HR]James 2:23 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.

You were saying?

So much for shown to be
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
[
=mailmandan;3582445]Both me and my brothers and sisters in Christ on Christian Chat are sick of your continuous straw man arguments and false accusations! Preaching salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" is not striving to live by ALL the Word's of God, but is PERVERTING THE GOSPEL. You only believe your twisted interpretation of the scriptures and are only fooling yourself.
I make no false accusation. You teach to transgress the Commandments of God by your religious traditions. You know you do. You may believe you are somehow more righteous than the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time who did the same thing, and maybe you are. But according to the Bible you are not. Since I believe the Bible is right when in conflict with religious man, I choose the Word over your religion.

Your anger is perfectly in line with the examples of religious man in the Bible. It is much simpler and easier to just silence or discredit those who point out transgressions than it is to consider them and make changes in your religion. It is much easier to just ignore scriptures which expose your man made religious traditions, than to change your religious traditions.

As Jesus said:

"Unless your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees you shall in no wise enter heaven".

What if Jesus is right? This is an option a wise man would consider. My hope is that you will.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Maybe you ought to say what you mean & mean what you say instead of using confusing phrases.

What exactly are you trying to say here?

I said what i meant

a byproduct of faith is salvation, another byproduct of faith is works. Faith is the root cause of both, thus boh are independent on fath,

take faith away, you have no salvation, and you have no works (james called this a dead faith) thus, a lack of works is not proof of lack of salvation, it is proof of lack of faith, also, lack of salvation is not proof of lack of works, lack of salvation is proof of lack of faith.

faith is the key word, not salvation and not works.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,034
13,041
113
58
Abraham's justification was applied in Genesis 15, but that justification was not fulfilled until Genesis 22. That is the point James is making.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James is showing us that Genesis 15:6 was not fulfilled until Abraham offered up Isaac. Remember mailmandan, that the one Abraham was proving himself to on top of that mountain was God. He was not justified before men up there as most commenters falsely claim. On that mountain God said, "now I KNOW that thou fearest God, SEEING thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." Genesis 22:12

The question James is asking in James 2 is not "will works follow faith?" The question is "can faith save him?". James 2:14

Paul makes it clear that the faith that saved me has no works attached to it whatsoever. In fact, the faith that saved me was not my faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ! Abraham did not have the faith of Christ. It wasn't even available to him according to Paul in Galatians 3.
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,034
13,041
113
58
[

I make no false accusation. You teach to transgress the Commandments of God by your religious traditions. You know you do. You may believe you are somehow more righteous than the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time who did the same thing, and maybe you are. But according to the Bible you are not. Since I believe the Bible is right when in conflict with religious man, I choose the Word over your religion.

Your anger is perfectly in line with the examples of religious man in the Bible. It is much simpler and easier to just silence or discredit those who point out transgressions than it is to consider them and make changes in your religion. It is much easier to just ignore scriptures which expose your man made religious traditions, than to change your religious traditions.

As Jesus said:

"Unless your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees you shall in no wise enter heaven".

What if Jesus is right? This is an option a wise man would consider. My hope is that you will.
I'm really not interested in your scripture twisting, your slanderous accusations or your perverted gospel. Go waste someone else's time with your trickery and deceit. You are not fooling me.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,034
13,041
113
58
Galatians 3:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

[HR][/HR]James 2:23 (AMP)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And [so] the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed in (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on) God, and this was accounted to him as righteousness (as conformity to God's will in thought and deed), and he was called God's friend.

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:3 (Interlinear)

[TABLE]
[TR="class: ms"]
[TH]?????s??[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: ms-trans"]
[TD]elogisthe[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: morph"]
[TD]VIAP--3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: def"]
[TD]IT WAS ACCOUNTED[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: root"]
[TD]??????µa?[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: strongs"]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: audio"]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:5 (Interlinear)
[TABLE]
[TR="class: ms"]
[TH]?????eta?[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: ms-trans"]
[TD]logizetai[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: morph"]
[TD]VIPP--3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: def"]
[TD]IS ACCOUNTED[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: root"]
[TD]??????µa?[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: strongs"]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: audio"]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:9 (Interlinear)

[TABLE]
[TR="class: ms"]
[TH]?????s??[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: ms-trans"]
[TD]Elogisthe[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: morph"]
[TD]VIAP--3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: def"]
[TD][SUP]3[/SUP]WAS ACCOUNTED[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: root"]
[TD]??????µa?[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: strongs"]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: audio"]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:11 (Interlinear)

[TABLE]
[TR="class: ms"]
[TH]
[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: ms-trans"]
[TD]logisthenai[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: morph"]
[TD]VNAPA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: def"]
[TD][SUP]3[/SUP]TO BE ACCOUNTED[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: root"]
[TD]??????µa?[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: strongs"]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: audio"]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:22 (Interlinear)

[TABLE]
[TR="class: ms"]
[TH]?????s??[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: ms-trans"]
[TD]elogisthe[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: morph"]
[TD]VIAP--3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: def"]
[TD]IT WAS ACCOUNTED[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: root"]
[TD]??????µa?[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: strongs"]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: audio"]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:5 (MaceNT)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] whereas he that trusts in God to be made righteous, tho' he has not done such actions, shall find his faith accounted as righteousness.

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:9 (MaceNT)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Is this happiness then for the circumcised only, or for the uncircumcised also? for we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:22 (MaceNT)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] and therefore it was accounted to him for righteousness.

[HR][/HR]Genesis 15:6 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:3 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:9 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.

[HR][/HR]Romans 4:22 (NKJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness."

[HR][/HR]James 2:23 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.

You were saying?

So much for shown to be
*See post #175.

So much for "justified by works" = saved by works (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,610
3,528
113
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
I'll start here. The believer is fully, completely, and perfectly justified the moment he/she trusted the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is no bringing to maturity of justification. Those carnal, baby Corinthian believers were justified. Why? Because they had believed the gospel and were in Christ.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,610
3,528
113
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
To whom do we prove our justification? To whom do we "shown to be righteous"? Other people? God?

1. What works prove that we are justified?
2. How often must these works be shown?

Remember, James is answering the question: Can faith save him? Not, will works follow faith. Paul says over and over that salvation has no works attached whatsoever, to gain salvation or to prove salvation. A believer can live a carnal, worldly life, void of good works and be saved. They will lose rewards and inheritance.
 

Faith101

Junior Member
May 17, 2018
15
1
3
So let's hear YOUR interpretation of James 2:21-24. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6 and James said he was justified by works in James 2:21.

Yet James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
I may be catching the tail end of this conversation, so if I'm off please excuse me. But Abraham was promised seed from Isaac in the chapter before the sacrifice. And when Abraham was taking Isaac to offer him his faith is already seen when he says wait here to his servants.. that him and the lad would go AND return. He already knew God would make a way.