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Thread: Are we still divided?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Dino246's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are we still divided?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    The evidence of THINGS NOT SEEN. What we have is God's testimony to the finished work of Christ. That is enough, since Blessed are they that have NOT SEEN, and yet have believed (John 20:29).
    The third sentence is taken out of context and, as such, is tantamount to a pretext.

    The context is Christ's bodily resurrection. Blessed are those who have not seen the resurrected Christ and yet believe in His resurrection.

    When the verse is applied to all areas of faith, it distorts the nature of faith. I've seen this in responses from other contributors, who think that observing or experiencing the miraculous is somehow contrary to or undermining of faith, or that those who experience the miraculous are "less blessed" than those who don't. Frankly, I'll take an actual physical healing over the nebulous "blessing" of believing "in faith" without the healing.

    There's another nuance to this, one which I'd need to investigate in the Greek to understand better: "blessed are those who believe without seeing"... does that mean that they "will be blessed" (future state) or that they "have been blessed already"? I tend to go with the latter, because faith is a gift from God, so those who believe without seeing have been blessed with that ability/inclination to belief.

    One more thing... the KJV has Hebrews 11:1 as "evidence of things not seen". I prefer some of the newer versions on this which use "conviction" in place of "evidence". It carries the sense of certainty, which "evidence" no longer carries (if it ever did).

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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are we still divided?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dino246 View Post
    The third sentence is taken out of context and, as such, is tantamount to a pretext.
    Not at all. Christ was stating a general principle for all those who would believe on Him after His ascension -- the whole Church.

    Don't try to find excuses for fault-finding with my posts.

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    Senior Member Dino246's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are we still divided?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    Not at all. Christ was stating a general principle for all those who would believe on Him after His ascension -- the whole Church.
    You're welcome to your opinion, but it fails the test of context. Jesus spoke those words in a specific context. Applying them in that specific context is solid interpretation of Scripture. Applying them to any other context is conjectural, and while it may be valid in certain cases, it also may not be. It's not doctrinally certain in every case. It's usually a bad idea to make doctrine from narrative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    Don't try to find excuses for fault-finding with my posts.
    I don't need to find excuses; I do so without apology.

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    Senior Member OneFaith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are we still divided?

    Faith is obedience, but it is not the only thing to be obeyed. Hebrews 3:18,19 shows that they are interchangeable.

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    Senior Member mailmandan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are we still divided?

    Quote Originally Posted by OneFaith View Post
    Faith is obedience, but it is not the only thing to be obeyed. Hebrews 3:18,19 shows that they are interchangeable.
    Faith is believing and obedience which follows is works. To say that faith "is" obedience is to confuse faith and works and teach salvation by works. Example below how a Roman Catholic re-defined faith to include works of obedience and the end result was salvation by faith (his version of faith) + works.

    We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Are we still divided?

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Faith is believing and obedience which follows is works. To say that faith "is" obedience is to confuse faith and works and teach salvation by works. Example below how a Roman Catholic re-defined faith to include works of obedience and the end result was salvation by faith (his version of faith) + works.

    We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..
    According to Hebrews 11:1, does not faith need evidence? Does not faith require substance? The entire chapter shows the faith of those OT saints and their obedience to prove their faith. Notice...it's their faith, not the faith of Jesus Christ. The faith of Jesus Christ, which is God's righteousness, was not even available to them according to Galatians 3. They were going about to establish their own righteousness through their own individual faith. Philippians 3:9, Romans 10:1-3, Luke 1:6, etc...
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  7. #27
    Senior Member mailmandan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are we still divided?

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    According to Hebrews 11:1, does not faith need evidence? Does not faith require substance? The entire chapter shows the faith of those OT saints and their obedience to prove their faith. Notice...it's their faith, not the faith of Jesus Christ. The faith of Jesus Christ, which is God's righteousness, was not even available to them according to Galatians 3. They were going about to establish their own righteousness through their own individual faith. Philippians 3:9, Romans 10:1-3, Luke 1:6, etc...
    According to Hebrews 11:1, faith "is" the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (KJV). The NASB says, faith "is" the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1 does not say, faith "is" multiple acts of obedience/works.

    In Hebrews 11, notice in all of these occurrences that is was "by" or "out of" faith, not faith "is" in essence, these acts of obedience/works. Their faith was genuine and it was shown by their actions (works) so all of these works accomplished in Hebrews 11 were done "by" or "out of" faith, yet those works are not the essence of faith, but are the evidence (fruit) of faith.

    That is absolutely critical to understand! We are saved through faith at it's origin and not at some time later, based on the merit of works.

    We are found in Him, not having our own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith. (Philippians 3:9)

    Romans 10:1 - Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    No one can obey the law perfectly (Romans 3:23), so faith had to be put in the mercy and forgiveness of God which was illustrated by the Old Testament blood sacrifices. The Jewish nation as a whole lacked the understanding of justification by faith (Romans 10:3-9) and had fallen into the deception that they could be righteous by obeying the law (Mark 10:17). Notice in Luke 1:6 that the scripture doesn't say that Zacharias and Elisabeth were sinless but rather blameless.

    Through their faith in the blood sacrifices (which were symbolic of Christ), God put the blame for their sins on the Lamb (John 1:29). They accepted God's way and sought to live by it, but without FAITH, they could not be considered blameless by committing theirselves to walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord. In Philippians 3:6, before Paul was saved, we see him describing himself; "Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." The NIV says, "as for legalistic righteousness, faultless."
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Are we still divided?

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    According to Hebrews 11:1, faith "is" the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (KJV). The NASB says, faith "is" the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1 does not say, faith "is" multiple acts of obedience/works.

    In Hebrews 11, notice in all of these occurrences that is was "by" or "out of" faith, not faith "is" in essence, these acts of obedience/works. Their faith was genuine and it was shown by their actions (works) so all of these works accomplished in Hebrews 11 were done "by" or "out of" faith, yet those works are not the essence of faith, but are the evidence (fruit) of faith.

    That is absolutely critical to understand! We are saved through faith at it's origin and not at some time later, based on the merit of works.

    We are found in Him, not having our own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith. (Philippians 3:9)

    Romans 10:1 - Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    No one can obey the law perfectly (Romans 3:23), so faith had to be put in the mercy and forgiveness of God which was illustrated by the Old Testament blood sacrifices. The Jewish nation as a whole lacked the understanding of justification by faith (Romans 10:3-9) and had fallen into the deception that they could be righteous by obeying the law (Mark 10:17). Notice in Luke 1:6 that the scripture doesn't say that Zacharias and Elisabeth were sinless but rather blameless.

    Through their faith in the blood sacrifices (which were symbolic of Christ), God put the blame for their sins on the Lamb (John 1:29). They accepted God's way and sought to live by it, but without FAITH, they could not be considered blameless by committing theirselves to walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord. In Philippians 3:6, before Paul was saved, we see him describing himself; "Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." The NIV says, "as for legalistic righteousness, faultless."
    Deuteronomy 6
    24 And the Lord commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.

    Luke 1
    5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
    6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

    When one was blameless, not sinless, but blameless in the law, which included the commandments and ordinances, they were righteous before God. It was their righteousness, not God's righteousness. This must be understood.

    God's righteousness through the faith of Jesus Christ was not available to them until after His resurrection. Christ's faith was not only blameless, but sinless. That's the righteousness that we need, the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ.

    Galatians 3
    22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
    23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
    24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    You see, God's righteousness was through the faith of Jesus Christ. You see, the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us and revealed God's righteousness through the very faith of Jesus Christ as He lived and died a spotless Lamb without blemish.

    Romans 3
    21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    The righteousness of God through the faith of His Son has been revealed and is upon all them that believe. We need Christ's faith which is God's righteousness imputed to us. How do we get God's righteousness? Through believing the gospel of Jesus Christ which is Christ's testimony in what He accomplished.

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    Senior Member eternally-gratefull's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are we still divided?

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    According to Hebrews 11:1, does not faith need evidence? Does not faith require substance? The entire chapter shows the faith of those OT saints and their obedience to prove their faith. Notice...it's their faith, not the faith of Jesus Christ. The faith of Jesus Christ, which is God's righteousness, was not even available to them according to Galatians 3. They were going about to establish their own righteousness through their own individual faith. Philippians 3:9, Romans 10:1-3, Luke 1:6, etc...

    According to Heb 1, Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things HOPED for. the EVIDENCE of things not seen.

    You can see works, if you can see works, Works are not a part of faith.

    However, what you see in chapter 11, Is faith PRODUCES works.

    Noah trusted in the unseen promise of God, and unseen flood that God said he would send, And based on the hope that God promised to save him and his family, He spent a year building the ark.

    thats how faith and works relate.
    dcontroversal and mailmandan like this.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

  10. #30
    Senior Member dcontroversal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are we still divided?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post

    According to Heb 1, Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things HOPED for. the EVIDENCE of things not seen.

    You can see works, if you can see works, Works are not a part of faith.

    However, what you see in chapter 11, Is faith PRODUCES works.

    Noah trusted in the unseen promise of God, and unseen flood that God said he would send, And based on the hope that God promised to save him and his family, He spent a year building the ark.

    thats how faith and works relate.
    AMEN....Notice the inspired version of what faith is.....it does not say faith is obedience.......

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    Default Re: Are we still divided?

    Quote Originally Posted by OneFaith View Post
    Faith is obedience, but it is not the only thing to be obeyed. Hebrews 3:18,19 shows that they are interchangeable.
    Faith is-trusting,believing,accepting,not obedience,obedience is-following orders,hearkening,doing as one is told,serving one's master/Lord/God with typically without question.
    Kind of like that song "Trust and Obey" if you can manage to have faith and obey then it is far more fruitful,than just one,however each one has a distinct "purpose".
    Faith-A reflection of one's beliefs holding to one's beliefs even when things seem grim and hopeless,what one can have left to cling to even in the face of death.
    Obedience-Doing for one's master or God,in order to show one's dedication in a more "visible" sense,doing tasks to please one's master or God,doing tasks not necessarily out of belief for one's claimed master or God but often out of fear for one's life not necessarily out of respect for one's master or God.
    If you don't believe in true love then please don't tell me not to believe in it because I believe it to be real.
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    Senior Member eternally-gratefull's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are we still divided?

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    AMEN....Notice the inspired version of what faith is.....it does not say faith is obedience.......
    amen bro, faith produces obedience, that is different then saying faith IS obedience.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Are we still divided?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    amen bro, faith produces obedience, that is different then saying faith IS obedience.
    Yeah and just how can one "obey" correctly if one doesn't first "trust" or have faith in one's master/God/Lord?
    King Saul tried twice to "Obey" God without putting faith in God's orders,but rather both times putting the people's feelings above God.
    Last edited by joefizz; 3 Days Ago at 11:04 AM.
    If you don't believe in true love then please don't tell me not to believe in it because I believe it to be real.
    I'm a self proclaimed troll tracker.
    I am hopeless...thankfully though Jesus's grace is sufficient for my weakness.
    I have a tendency to speak through the spirit if you can't handle that get some ear plugs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milktalk View Post
    haha joey joe joe - a roo!



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    Default Re: Are we still divided?

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    AMEN....Notice the inspired version of what faith is.....it does not say faith is obedience.......
    Faith is the substance. Faith is the evidence. For instance, Noah had faith in what God told him, the unseen, and the evidence of his faith is the ark, the seen. The ark proves Noah's faith.

    This is totally different that what we have today.

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    Default Re: Are we still divided?

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Faith is the substance. Faith is the evidence. For instance, Noah had faith in what God told him, the unseen, and the evidence of his faith is the ark, the seen. The ark proves Noah's faith.

    This is totally different that what we have today.
    whats so different

    faith produces works. Faith caused noah to trust in the unseen, and led him to action. because he had faith in Gods word and assurance in his promise.

    No different than today.
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    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are we still divided?

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Faith is the substance. Faith is the evidence.
    Faith is the substance OF THINGS HOPED FOR...

    Faith is the evidence OF THINGS NOT SEEN...

    So faith is simply believing and trust God about things for which we have no tangible evidence.

    Why are you complicating things unnecessarily? Are you trying to create a new doctrine about faith?

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    Default Re: Are we still divided?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    whats so different

    faith produces works. Faith caused noah to trust in the unseen, and led him to action. because he had faith in Gods word and assurance in his promise.

    No different than today.
    I agree, faith produces works. The difference is that the believer is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ and not our own individual faith. Christ's faith produced His perfect obedience unto His Father. That's what we need! It's imputed unto us who believe. Our individual faith cannot justify. Period.

    GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS = THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST

    Our justification has zero to do with our individual faith.

  18. #38
    Senior Member Deade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are we still divided?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post

    According to Heb 1, Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things HOPED for. the EVIDENCE of things not seen.

    You can see works, if you can see works, Works are not a part of faith.

    However, what you see in chapter 11, Is faith PRODUCES works.

    Noah trusted in the unseen promise of God, and unseen flood that God said he would send, And based on the hope that God promised to save him and his family, He spent a year building the ark.

    thats how faith and works relate.
    Let's take a look at what you are saying here. First you state:
    You can see works, if you can see works, Works are not a part of faith.

    Then you go on to say:
    However, what you see in chapter 11, Is faith PRODUCES works.

    Then would not visible works be an indicator of faith?





    Last edited by Deade; 3 Days Ago at 01:13 PM. Reason: Cosmetics
    Romans 8:28: “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God,
    to them who are the called according to His purpose.”

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    Default Re: Are we still divided?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Let's take a look at what you are saying here. First you state:
    You can see works, if you can see works, Works are not a part of faith.

    Then you go on to say:
    However, what you see in chapter 11, Is faith PRODUCES works.

    Then would not visible works be an indicator of faith?





    i guess you couod say that if ALL works was visible. But thats not the case, so looking for works couod be a false indicator,
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Are we still divided?

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Faith is the substance. Faith is the evidence. For instance, Noah had faith in what God told him, the unseen, and the evidence of his faith is the ark, the seen. The ark proves Noah's faith.

    This is totally different that what we have today.
    Noah had faith and found grace before God warned him of the impending judgment
    Abraham had faith long before he was whacked and or offered Isaac
    Rahab had faith before the spies even came to her house and she hid them
    Abel had faith before he cut the throat of the lamb and offered blood

    No matter how you guys slice and dice.........The faith that one has is the bedrock of any and all acts, deeds, works, fruit and is given as a GIFT by GOD........

    WORKS, DEEDS, LAW KEEPING have not nor will they ever produce faith...........as a matter of fact the exact opposite is true.....

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