About soul

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Chavah

Junior Member
Feb 17, 2018
39
12
8
#1
Hello there saints,

I have two questions, placed in two sections, both questions are in bold font.
So, feel free to skip the following intros.


1.
This is how my thoughts flowed.
God is eternal. Without beginning or end.
Our soul is also eternal.
When we die, we either live with God in eternity or we will be dying without Him eternally.

Since our soul has an eternal character, does it mean, that our soul was here (somewhere with God or I do not know where) before we were born?

There is a verse in Jeremiah supporting this presumption.

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou hast come forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee and prophet unto the nations.

2.
I had this argument with one fellow brother, or I was rather whining (as usual) about me in this world.
So, he mentioned, that actually, it could of be my own choice.
To come to this world.
How interesting and awesome, isn’t it? (For me it is easier to blame me rather than God, so it was a relief)
I mean beside the fact that why on earth would I choose this life… (that’s not a question for you, thou)

So basically, what he said was, that before we have been born, we were as souls with God and we might discussed with Him possibility of our life.
Or we might had agreed with God with us being born.
Same way as Jesus did. Well, he rather volunteered... but something like that.

Do you think, that we agreed or even asked God to be born?

(Us being born, not Him... I hate English...so ambiguous grammar)

If so, it would be interesting to hear your reasons (which you obviously can’t remember, but you can still kinda guess them or deduce them)

Thank you in advance for your time and hopefully also answers
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,247
25,716
113
#2
1. This is how my thoughts flowed.
God is eternal. Without beginning or end.
Our soul is also eternal.
When we die, we either live with God in eternity or we will be dying without Him eternally.

Since our soul has an eternal character, does it mean, that our soul was here (somewhere with God or I do not know where) before we were born?

There is a verse in Jeremiah supporting this presumption.

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou hast come forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee and prophet unto the nations.
Hello Chavah :) Man is not eternal, since he is a created being, made of earthly elements, which God breathed the breath of life (Ruach) into, at which point he became a living soul, which God can destroy. Only those who place their faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ attain to life ever after, being born again of the Spirit, for the flesh counts for nothing; all else pass into the second death. God knowing us before we were born speaks to His omniscience, for He knows the end from the beginning.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,176
2,539
113
#3
Those are actually very good questions that I myself have wondered. I make it a point to spend as much quality time with God as possible and sometimes in our alone time when he and I are just talking I feel like there is something familiar about him as if I had known him before.
And sometimes when I am longing for him deeply I say to him I miss him not because we have met but it's more like that feeling you have when you really miss someone that you have known well for a log time as if I had known him before I was even born. Now I am not one to rely on feelings alone but I can't deny these things happen to me
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
1,282
57
48
#4
Hello Chavah :) Man is not eternal, since he is a created being, made of earthly elements, which God breathed the breath of life (Ruach) into, at which point he became a living soul, which God can destroy. Only those who place their faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ attain to life ever after, being born again of the Spirit, for the flesh counts for nothing; all else pass into the second death. God knowing us before we were born speaks to His omniscience, for He knows the end from the beginning.
the body of a man is not eternal, but his soul is. we see that in the eternal torment of the lake of fire. i would like to think if earth was a test for the eternal soul to see who really love Him.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
981
113
33
#5
Hello there saints,

I have two questions, placed in two sections, both questions are in bold font.
So, feel free to skip the following intros.


1.
This is how my thoughts flowed.
God is eternal. Without beginning or end.
Our soul is also eternal.
When we die, we either live with God in eternity or we will be dying without Him eternally.

Since our soul has an eternal character, does it mean, that our soul was here (somewhere with God or I do not know where) before we were born?

There is a verse in Jeremiah supporting this presumption.

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou hast come forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee and prophet unto the nations.

2.
I had this argument with one fellow brother, or I was rather whining (as usual) about me in this world.
So, he mentioned, that actually, it could of be my own choice.
To come to this world.
How interesting and awesome, isn’t it? (For me it is easier to blame me rather than God, so it was a relief)
I mean beside the fact that why on earth would I choose this life… (that’s not a question for you, thou)

So basically, what he said was, that before we have been born, we were as souls with God and we might discussed with Him possibility of our life.
Or we might had agreed with God with us being born.
Same way as Jesus did. Well, he rather volunteered... but something like that.

Do you think, that we agreed or even asked God to be born?

(Us being born, not Him... I hate English...so ambiguous grammar)

If so, it would be interesting to hear your reasons (which you obviously can’t remember, but you can still kinda guess them or deduce them)

Thank you in advance for your time and hopefully also answers
Its kind of redundant is it not? To have lived with God, to only agree to become separate from Him in order to be reconciled once more? It doesn't really make sense, since this life is a means of reconciling to God. Why would eternal beings in the presence of God decide to be born, to become alienated from God, to then have faith in the Son of God to be reconciled, when all of it could've been avoided by just staying with the Lord? Jesus wouldn't have had to die.

Jesus could say "before Abraham was born, I am", but we cannot. Then we must consider those who are condemned (that is the whole world without Christ), why would any of them agree to eternal damnation if they were already in His presence? You don't think the Father would've given them a heads up? lol

When you really flesh out the concept you're considering, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. In fact, there are many flaws.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,261
2,386
113
#7
Hello there saints,

I have two questions, placed in two sections, both questions are in bold font.
So, feel free to skip the following intros.


1.
This is how my thoughts flowed.
God is eternal. Without beginning or end.
Our soul is also eternal.
When we die, we either live with God in eternity or we will be dying without Him eternally.

Since our soul has an eternal character, does it mean, that our soul was here (somewhere with God or I do not know where) before we were born?

There is a verse in Jeremiah supporting this presumption.

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou hast come forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee and prophet unto the nations.

2.
I had this argument with one fellow brother, or I was rather whining (as usual) about me in this world.
So, he mentioned, that actually, it could of be my own choice.
To come to this world.
How interesting and awesome, isn’t it? (For me it is easier to blame me rather than God, so it was a relief)
I mean beside the fact that why on earth would I choose this life… (that’s not a question for you, thou)

So basically, what he said was, that before we have been born, we were as souls with God and we might discussed with Him possibility of our life.
Or we might had agreed with God with us being born.
Same way as Jesus did. Well, he rather volunteered... but something like that.

Do you think, that we agreed or even asked God to be born?

(Us being born, not Him... I hate English...so ambiguous grammar)

If so, it would be interesting to hear your reasons (which you obviously can’t remember, but you can still kinda guess them or deduce them)

Thank you in advance for your time and hopefully also answers


Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;




1. Let's look at what this verse says, and what it does not... lets not make presumptions.



Does it say, "Before I formed you in the belly, I used to hang out with you"?
No.

Does it say, "Before I formed you in the bell, you were a conscious being"?
No.

Does it say, "Before I formed you in the belly, YOU had some knowledge of ME"?
No.


This "knowing" is only going in one direction, from God to us.
Before we were born, God knew us; we did not know him.




2. Only 1 conscious being in this verse:

This "knowing" is not showing even a hint of a relationship between 2 conscious beings; it is doing nothing more than showing that God, being omniscient, has ALL PROPOSITIONAL KNOWLEDGE of ALL THINGS IN THE FUTURE... such as your birth.

That is all.

He knew YOU before your birth, because he simply knows EVERYTHING about EVERYTHING.
It does not say YOU knew HIM, or that you had a RELATIONSHIP with him, or the two of you were hanging out playing harps together... it is merely pointing out God's propositional knowledge of the future.

There IS nothing more than this in the verse.



3. If you want to make the verse say anything more than "God, being omniscient, has knowledge of all future things", you must:

1. Ignore what is actually stated, and not stated, in the text.
2. INJECT all kinds of PRESUMPTIONS into the text which aren't there.
3. Ignore all other scripture regarding this doctrine and many related doctrines.
4. Make yourself co-eternal with God:

A. For you to be eternal, you are logically and immediately making yourself co-eternal with God.
B. Being co-eternal with God logically makes you both "uncreated" and "self existent", because you cannot be eternal and be a created being.
C. Being uncreated challenges the nature of God, and the doctrine of him "creating all things".
D. This also challenges, intrinsically the nature of God as a "necessary being", and thus the doctrine of God being a "necessarily self existent being" ... called the doctrine of God's Aseity.
* OVERALL, to believe you existed eternally in heaven before your earthly birth is to place yourself in an ENORMOUS QUAGMIRE of a ENTIRE MULTITUDE of theological and philosophical problems which ALL orthodox denominations consider to be heresy and blasphemy... because these things contradict the very nature and attributes of God.
 
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Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#8
Interesting concept......the spirit that man has returns unto God that gave it......this whole grand experiment under the sun is about choice....the choice between God's kingdom and the fallen, material kingdom of Satan....EVEN the SON of GOD had to disrobe, take flesh and choose..........
 
Apr 15, 2017
2,867
653
113
#9
People did not exist before the creation,not even in soul, and spirit.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In the beginning was the plan of God to come in the future in flesh, and that plan was with God before He laid down the foundation of the world, and that plan was God manifest in flesh.

All things were created with the plan of God to come in flesh, and without that plan God would of not created anything that He created, for Jesus is the reason creation is successful, God manifest in flesh, the man Christ Jesus.

Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

The angels were before the creation, and creation was made for people, and their salvation, and the angels assist in that salvation, which the saints will have a higher position in heaven than that of the angels, for they will have a glorified body like Jesus, and rule with Jesus on earth for 1000 years.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Adam was not a living soul before creation, but when God made Adam from the dust of the earth, then man became a living soul.

And also this disproves evolution for God made Adam and Eve, and all the animals from the dust of the earth, and not through evolution, and He made them after their own kind, which God made them in the mature form, and then they reproduced from there.

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

This does not mean Jeremiah in any way existed before He was conceived, but it means God already ordained him to be a prophet to the nations before he was born, and God also knows the DNA in our body and knew how Jeremiah would look when he was born, and all throughout his life.

But I believe it mainly means that God ordained Jeremiah to be a prophet to the nations, and sanctified unto God before He formed him in the womb, so God knew him before he was born, for he would be with God all through his life.

When humans are born then they have a soul, and spirit, which all spirits go back to God who gave them regardless of how the person acted on earth, and the soul will live on forever whether with God, or not.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#10
I knew thee


yada: to know
Original Word: [FONT=&quot]יָדַע[/FONT]
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: yada
Phonetic Spelling: (yaw-dah')
Short Definition: know

Jeremiah 1:5
HEB: [FONT=&quot]ק) בַבֶּ֙טֶן֙ יְדַעְתִּ֔יךָ וּבְטֶ֛רֶם תֵּצֵ֥א[/FONT]
NAS: you in the womb I knew you, And before
KJV: thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth
INT: earthen the womb knew and before forth
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
981
113
33
#11
Those are actually very good questions that I myself have wondered. I make it a point to spend as much quality time with God as possible and sometimes in our alone time when he and I are just talking I feel like there is something familiar about him as if I had known him before.
And sometimes when I am longing for him deeply I say to him I miss him not because we have met but it's more like that feeling you have when you really miss someone that you have known well for a log time as if I had known him before I was even born. Now I am not one to rely on feelings alone but I can't deny these things happen to me
The familiarity is that He is your Creator. He knows you, through and through. The bond you feel is that He not only is your Creator, but now too, your Father.

I don't think you should try to make this esoteric, as something shared with the OP, and on feeling try to say that you have known Him not only all the days of your life, but prior to existing on earth. It leads to inconsistencies in doctrine, and truth.

I think, if I may assume or presume, that what you feel with the Lord is home. It is where you belong. He created you to be in His presence, and mankind lost this, but now are you reconciled (through and in Christ). So maybe the familiarity to which you speak, is rather a knowing of where you belong. In His presence.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
12,763
113
#12
Hello there saints, I have two questions, placed in two sections, both questions are in bold font.
The answer to both questions is "NO". Hope that is sufficient
 

Chavah

Junior Member
Feb 17, 2018
39
12
8
#13
Hello Chavah :) Man is not eternal, since he is a created being, made of earthly elements, which God breathed the breath of life (Ruach) into, at which point he became a living soul, which God can destroy. Only those who place their faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ attain to life ever after, being born again of the Spirit, for the flesh counts for nothing; all else pass into the second death. God knowing us before we were born speaks to His omniscience, for He knows the end from the beginning.
Yes, thank you Magenta :)

That’s what I was taught as well.
Body goes to dust, soul is what connects us to God most because it comes from God, and spirit is what makes us “us”.

Soul and spirit are (at least for me) quite entangled thou.

I am overreaching a speculating here now, but if our soul comes from God (he breathe it in us) that means that part of God is in us (we were made thru Him for Him and with Him we are able to move) which make part of us in a way eternal (without beginning and end) as well.

When we die, will our spirit die too with our body? What remains will be only our soul which came from God anyway? I was taught that both our soul and spirit will live….

Anyway, thank you Magenta and God bless you :)
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
113
#14
Yes, thank you Magenta :)

That’s what I was taught as well.
Body goes to dust, soul is what connects us to God most because it comes from God, and spirit is what makes us “us”.

Soul and spirit are (at least for me) quite entangled thou.

I am overreaching a speculating here now, but if our soul comes from God (he breathe it in us) that means that part of God is in us (we were made thru Him for Him and with Him we are able to move) which make part of us in a way eternal (without beginning and end) as well.

When we die, will our spirit die too with our body? What remains will be only our soul which came from God anyway? I was taught that both our soul and spirit will live….

Anyway, thank you Magenta and God bless you :)
Greetings Chavah,

Forgive me for butting in, but remember that at the Lord's appearing the resurrection will take place, which is the reanimation of the body, immortal and glorified, with the spirit of those who will have departed to be in the presence of Christ, who is our example and guarantee of every believers resurrection. He was laid in the tomb and 3 days later His spirit reentered His body (resurrected) and appeared to His disciples. The disciples were afraid thinking they were seeing a spirit, but He comforted them saying, "Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see--for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." - Luke 24:39

Therefore, at the time of the resurrection, when the dead rise and the living are changed and caught up, we will take on immortal and glorified qualities with a body, soul and spirit.
 
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Chavah

Junior Member
Feb 17, 2018
39
12
8
#15
Therefore, at the time of the resurrection, when the dead rise and the living are changed and caught up, we will take on immortal and glorified qualities with a body, soul and spirit.[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
Greetings back to you Ahwatukee,

yes, absolutely, but our new "body" will be heavenly, completely new, not our old just "updated", imho. So it will be probably very very different from what we have now. Our old body goes to dust bcs it was made from dust, so God said to Adam.

God bless you and thank you for your input :)
 

Chavah

Junior Member
Feb 17, 2018
39
12
8
#16
Hello,

Blain, wanderer6059, BenFTW, HeRoseFromTheDead,maxwel, dcontroversal (cheers brother! :) ) , MattforJesus, Nehemiah!


Thank you all ...very much .. for your time and shared opinions, especially maxvel I appreciate your pint point respond and nice analytical view.

And yes Nehemiah, your no no was sufficient enough, thanks for bothering! :D


There are things and our own theories maybe even doctrines we create and assume based on knowledge we currently have. Like Jews assumed for centuries that life in heaven will be similar to our life on earth. Until Jesus told them that actually we will be like angels, not men and women. I bet it was very new to them.


Even if I am not doing so well right now I do remember the connection and integrity I have gained thru Jesus with God and it was/is waaay more than just sense of home. At least for me. It is totally divine and absolute overwhelming grace. Eh, I wont even try to describe it.




Well, this was nice, even if it left me with more questions .... But I won’t open a new thread, don’t worry :D
Maybe this whole topic falls to box of the secret things belong to the Lord our God… (deut. 29)

God bless you all
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
113
#17
Greetings back to you Ahwatukee,

yes, absolutely, but our new "body" will be heavenly, completely new, not our old just "updated", imho. So it will be probably very very different from what we have now. Our old body goes to dust bcs it was made from dust, so God said to Adam.

God bless you and thank you for your input :)
Hello again,

My point was/is, that the body that is resurrected will be the same body that you died in, but with heavenly upgrades. In other words, the original body that dies does not remain dust, but God will reanimate it, but with heavenly qualities. This is supported by the fact that when Jesus resurrected, the tomb was empty and that because His spirit reentered the same body that He was buried in and is the same body that He is sitting at the right hand of the Father in. To be clearer, if say a believer was to die one day prior to when the resurrection takes place, that body that is lying on a table in the morgue would no longer be there, because it would be resurrected, but taking on heavenly qualities.

Understanding the meaning of the word "anastasis" which is translated "resurrection" helps to give understanding of this. The word basically means to stand up again in the same bodily that died. Examples are Lazarus, Tabatha, Dorcus, etc. These all resurrected, but not in their immortal and glorified bodies, for those bodies died again.

We also have scriptures stating that "all who are in the grave will hear His voice and will rise." There would be no point in raising people from their graves if God was not using their original bodies. I guess what i am trying to say is that, those bodies that die and decay will not remain in that state, but will stand up again.
 
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jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
586
113
#18
Hello there saints,

I have two questions, placed in two sections, both questions are in bold font.
So, feel free to skip the following intros.


1.
This is how my thoughts flowed.
God is eternal. Without beginning or end.
Our soul is also eternal.
When we die, we either live with God in eternity or we will be dying without Him eternally.

Since our soul has an eternal character, does it mean, that our soul was here (somewhere with God or I do not know where) before we were born?

There is a verse in Jeremiah supporting this presumption.

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou hast come forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee and prophet unto the nations.

2.
I had this argument with one fellow brother, or I was rather whining (as usual) about me in this world.
So, he mentioned, that actually, it could of be my own choice.
To come to this world.
How interesting and awesome, isn’t it? (For me it is easier to blame me rather than God, so it was a relief)
I mean beside the fact that why on earth would I choose this life… (that’s not a question for you, thou)

So basically, what he said was, that before we have been born, we were as souls with God and we might discussed with Him possibility of our life.
Or we might had agreed with God with us being born.
Same way as Jesus did. Well, he rather volunteered... but something like that.

Do you think, that we agreed or even asked God to be born?

(Us being born, not Him... I hate English...so ambiguous grammar)

If so, it would be interesting to hear your reasons (which you obviously can’t remember, but you can still kinda guess them or deduce them)

Thank you in advance for your time and hopefully also answers
Did a short blog on this subject, you can find it Here
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
887
7
18
#19
My understanding is that God breathed into Adam and he became a living soul. And this doesn’t happen to anyone else.
Therefore, all mankind is conceived of the soul of Adam. That mankind is all of one soul divided unto each man. That there doesn’t exist a depository of souls off somewhere.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
3,518
1,045
113
Australia
#20
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Dust + Breath = living soul.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field .....
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Do we die or don't we die? i don't want to believe the serpent and teach that we don't by saying we have eternal souls.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. ...

The soul that sins shall die. Jesus is our only means of Eternal life.