perfect

Hi,
In answer to another thread, I want to say that Jesus was sinless but he was not born perfect.
Hebrews 5:7 During the days of Jesus's life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect , he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
On another matter if Jesus is God does that make God a priest in the order of Melchizedek?

love
edwin.

That's... what it is. Thanks Ed, you've answered a few questions for me there.

Originally Posted by ed

Hi,

On another matter if Jesus is God does that make God a priest in the order of Melchizedek?

love
edwin.

Does it? You'll have to tell me, you're a bit too clecer for this groover.

Originally Posted by Beggs

Does it? You'll have to tell me, you're a bit too clecer for this groover.

Hi Beggs,
Please don't think this way. We all have a path to God through Jesus and Jesus teaches us that which is pertinent to our pathway. No one will sit down in front of Jesus and have all of scripture explained to them. Jesus only teaches us what is necessary because a lot of his teachings come from our life's experiences which are under his control. Your will be done. We could not bear the agony of learning too much.
love
edwin.

I like that, Jesus does only teach us what is necassary. Thanks.

[Saint]

Originally Posted by ed

Hi,
In answer to another thread, I want to say that Jesus was sinless but he was not born perfect.
Hebrews 5:7 During the days of Jesus's life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect , he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
On another matter if Jesus is God does that make God a priest in the order of Melchizedek?

love
edwin.

Well, first off, thank you, ed, for taking this to another forum, it allows us to focus our discussion. but i must take from that last sentence that you believe that Jesus was not God, if that is untrue, then i'm sorry for being mistaken. But if it is true, then let me ask you this, why does Jesus say, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30) and if Jesus is the Father, that makes Him perfect, because God is perfect.

[AgeofKnowledge]

Admittedly, God adapted to human limitations in order to communicate with us. Indeed, Jesus, who was God, was also 'a human being, and as a human being He was limited in His knowledge. This is borne out by several passages of Scripture; for instance, as a child "he grew in wisdom" (Luke 2:52). Even as an adult He had certain limitations on His knowledge. According to Matthew, Jesus did not know what was on the fig tree before He got to it (Matt. 21:19). Jesus Himself said He did not know the time of His second coming: "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" (Matt. 24:36).

However, despite the limitations on Jesus' human knowledge, we know that He never erred for two basic reasons. First, limits on understanding are different from misunderstanding. The fact that He did not know some things does not mean He was wrong in what He did know. It is one thing to say Jesus did not know as a man a theological position of some pagan religion held on the other side of the globe or what was on every fruit tree in Israel, for example. But it is quite another to say Jesus was wrong when He affirmed that David wrote Psalm 110 (Matt. 22:43) or that Moses wrote the law (Luke 24:27; John 7:19, 23) or that Daniel wrote the prophecy attributed to him in Matthew 24:15. In short, Jesus' limitations on things He did not know as a man did not hinder Him from affirming truly the things He did know. And God did reveal things to Him, as necessary, such as when He saw Nathaniel under the fig tree in a vision too far away to have known such a thing by physical senses.

Second, what Jesus did know and teach He affirmed with divine authority. This is evident for many reasons. For one thing, Jesus said to His disciples: "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age" (Matt. 28:18-20).

Further, He affirmed many things He taught with emphasis. In the gospel of John, Jesus said twenty-five times "Truly, truly..." (John 3:3,5,11). Indeed, He claimed His words were on the level of God's, declaring, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away" (Matt. 24:35).
What is more, Jesus taught only what the Father told Him to teach: "I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me' (John 8:28). He added, "By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me" (John 5:30). So to charge Jesus with error is to charge God the Father with error, since He spoke only what the Father told Him to speak.

[Saint]

well said, ageofknowledge

Originally Posted by Saint

Well, first off, thank you, ed, for taking this to another forum, it allows us to focus our discussion. but i must take from that last sentence that you believe that Jesus was not God, if that is untrue, then i'm sorry for being mistaken. But if it is true, then let me ask you this, why does Jesus say, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30) and if Jesus is the Father, that makes Him perfect, because God is perfect.

Hi Saint,
Yes it is true that I believe that Jesus is not God. Scripture clearly says, Son. and Father. If Jesus was God then Mary would be the mother of God and Jesus would have been born perfect. Can anyone belief that God could be anything else but perfect. There are a thousand verses giving proof that Jesus is the Son, before the world, the Word of God. The Word was made flesh. Those who speak the word of God are gods. etc etc etc, but by far the biggest proof is that God can't lie. Son means son and Father means Father. Of course they are one, as you and I are one with Jesus and God. We live in each other. Jesus is an heir How can God be an heir to God.It goes against the language given us by God. We are coheirs. Are we coGods as in coGod the Father..
Really I am totally frustrated with this deception that Jesus is God when the proof is so overwhelming that Jesus is the Son.
I have asked why and the answer really really scares me. If deep in a person's heart they believe that Jesus is really God then they don't really have Jesus but God, and are therefore not saved.They are living in the old testament tmes. How awfully sad is that. What can I do?
love
edwin

Originally Posted by AgeofKnowledge

Admittedly, God adapted to human limitations in order to communicate with us. Indeed, Jesus, who was God, was also 'a human being, and as a human being He was limited in His knowledge. This is borne out by several passages of Scripture; for instance, as a child "he grew in wisdom" (Luke 2:52). Even as an adult He had certain limitations on His knowledge. According to Matthew, Jesus did not know what was on the fig tree before He got to it (Matt. 21:19). Jesus Himself said He did not know the time of His second coming: "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" (Matt. 24:36).

However, despite the limitations on Jesus' human knowledge, we know that He never erred for two basic reasons. First, limits on understanding are different from misunderstanding. The fact that He did not know some things does not mean He was wrong in what He did know. It is one thing to say Jesus did not know as a man a theological position of some pagan religion held on the other side of the globe or what was on every fruit tree in Israel, for example. But it is quite another to say Jesus was wrong when He affirmed that David wrote Psalm 110 (Matt. 22:43) or that Moses wrote the law (Luke 24:27; John 7:19, 23) or that Daniel wrote the prophecy attributed to him in Matthew 24:15. In short, Jesus' limitations on things He did not know as a man did not hinder Him from affirming truly the things He did know. And God did reveal things to Him, as necessary, such as when He saw Nathaniel under the fig tree in a vision too far away to have known such a thing by physical senses.

Second, what Jesus did know and teach He affirmed with divine authority. This is evident for many reasons. For one thing, Jesus said to His disciples: "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age" (Matt. 28:18-20).

Further, He affirmed many things He taught with emphasis. In the gospel of John, Jesus said twenty-five times "Truly, truly..." (John 3:3,5,11). Indeed, He claimed His words were on the level of God's, declaring, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away" (Matt. 24:35).
What is more, Jesus taught only what the Father told Him to teach: "I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me' (John 8:28). He added, "By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me" (John 5:30). So to charge Jesus with error is to charge God the Father with error, since He spoke only what the Father told Him to speak.

Hi AgeofKnowledge,
Please read your post. You have answered your post.
love
edwin

[AgeofKnowledge]

You're confused and all over the landscape Ed. Christology is a coherent subset of theology and is systematic. If you want to understand the subject, I recommend you start with Lee Strobel's 'The Case For Christ' as a quick primer and then move into scholarly materials such as Dr. Norman Geisler's 'Christian Apologetics' with emphasis on Chapter 17 'The Deity and Authority of Jesus Christ' which begins with Jesus' fulfillment of prophecy, His uniquely miraculous life, and His resurrection from the dead. That is if you really wish to gain a scholarly understanding on this topic. You'll have to do the work though. I'm too busy to do more than provide the context and resources right now. Happy 4th btw .

[AgeofKnowledge]

Originally Posted by ed

Hi AgeofKnowledge,
Please read your post. You have answered your post.
love
edwin

Negative Ed. I wrote that post as a response to the first post in this thread which opened this topic up for discussion. You wrote the first post in this thread so it was a response to your post not myself.

[Saint]

Originally Posted by ed

Hi Saint,
Yes it is true that I believe that Jesus is not God. Scripture clearly says, Son. and Father. If Jesus was God then Mary would be the mother of God and Jesus would have been born perfect. Can anyone belief that God could be anything else but perfect. There are a thousand verses giving proof that Jesus is the Son, before the world, the Word of God. The Word was made flesh. Those who speak the word of God are gods. etc etc etc, but by far the biggest proof is that God can't lie. Son means son and Father means Father. Of course they are one, as you and I are one with Jesus and God. We live in each other. Jesus is an heir How can God be an heir to God.It goes against the language given us by God. We are coheirs. Are we coGods as in coGod the Father..
Really I am totally frustrated with this deception that Jesus is God when the proof is so overwhelming that Jesus is the Son.
I have asked why and the answer really really scares me. If deep in a person's heart they believe that Jesus is really God then they don't really have Jesus but God, and are therefore not saved.They are living in the old testament tmes. How awfully sad is that. What can I do?
love
edwin

Alright, let's start with the "how can God be Father and Son" well, i see your confusion, but you can't respectively give God your restrictions, i mean, if everything is possible with God (Matthew 19:26) then the answer is simple: because He can. God can be Son, Father, Uncle, Grandpa, and Brother all at the same time. Why? because He's omnipotent, and there's nothing He can't do. If He want's to be human, restrict Himself, His knowledge, His power, then He can. If He wants to do so while talking to Himself, giving Himself permission, He can. I mean, can you fathom the mysteries of God? (Job 11:7-9)

second, let's go with the coGod thing. i understand where you're coming from and everything ( i forgot the verse, though) but it's more like cogods, because to say coGod is to say that we are at a same or similar level with God.

And lastly, wether you know it or not, you just passively-aggressively told me that i wasn't saved. and i would just like to point out, that you do not have the right to judge that. not even a little bit, and in all honesty, i'm willing to say you crossed a line. i might seem to taking that harder than neccisary, but i've already had my faith accused by people close to me, and i, just like everyone else on here, did not join this website in order to get accused of not having faith. I came here to learn and grow in a constructive way, and if you want to tell me that i'm mistaken in something, it is your God-given right to do so, but not like that, that was rude and uncalled for. (1 Corinthians 13).

but i'm ok, and i don't condemn you because of one crossed line (God knows i've crossed far more than one) so i forgive you, and won't hold that against you in future posts. i just wanted you to know how you come accross when you post things like that.

Originally Posted by ed

Hi Saint,
Yes it is true that I believe that Jesus is not God. Scripture clearly says, Son. and Father.
Just as we understand the title of Father as a descriptive idiom, in the same way we understand that the title of Son is a descriptive idiom. It describes an eternal relationship between the Father and the Son rather than a biological one.
If Jesus was God then Mary would be the mother of God
The mother-son relationship between Mary and Jesus began with the miraculous conception of Jesus and ended with his death on the cross. Think about the illustration that Paul uses about the temporal relationship of husband and wife. In order for Mary to be the mother of God, it would have to be an eteranl relationship. The Catholics would have a different view of this.
and Jesus would have been born perfect.
If by perfect you mean without human frailty, I disagree. If by perfect you mean without sin or failure, I believe that he was so.
Can anyone belief that God could be anything else but perfect. There are a thousand verses giving proof that Jesus is the Son, before the world, the Word of God. The Word was made flesh. Those who speak the word of God are gods. etc etc etc, but by far the biggest proof is that God can't lie. Son means son and Father means Father. Of course they are one, as you and I are one with Jesus and God. We live in each other.
The word "one" is an adjective, so you have to ask, one what? In the case of Jesus and the Father, they were and are one in will and purpose, an eternal composite unity, a co-existant community.
Jesus is an heir How can God be an heir to God.It goes against the language given us by God.
Again, we are using language limited by our own concepts to apply to eternal concepts. So, we can't apply all the human nuances to the title of heirs to Jesus. Consider that God never dies, so our inheritance is not one that passes upon death.
We are coheirs. Are we coGods as in coGod the Father..
Really I am totally frustrated with this deception that Jesus is God when the proof is so overwhelming that Jesus is the Son.
To believe that Jesus is God is not to deny that He is the Son. The Bible clearly shows that the Father shares His glory with the Son. Can the glory of God be shared with a created being or with anyone who is not God.
I have asked why and the answer really really scares me. If deep in a person's heart they believe that Jesus is really God then they don't really have Jesus but God, and are therefore not saved.They are living in the old testament tmes. How awfully sad is that. What can I do?
love
edwin

I would have the opposite view, which is how can I have Jesus "in me" if he is a limited, created being? Would that not be possession rather than fellowship?

[loveschild]

Jesus was and is perfect. Hes God he didn't learn how to be perfect.

Originally Posted by Saint

Alright, let's start with the "how can God be Father and Son" well, i see your confusion, but you can't respectively give God your restrictions, i mean, if everything is possible with God (Matthew 19:26) then the answer is simple: because He can. God can be Son, Father, Uncle, Grandpa, and Brother all at the same time. Why? because He's omnipotent, and there's nothing He can't do. If He want's to be human, restrict Himself, His knowledge, His power, then He can. If He wants to do so while talking to Himself, giving Himself permission, He can. I mean, can you fathom the mysteries of God? (Job 11:7-9)

second, let's go with the coGod thing. i understand where you're coming from and everything ( i forgot the verse, though) but it's more like cogods, because to say coGod is to say that we are at a same or similar level with God.

And lastly, wether you know it or not, you just passively-aggressively told me that i wasn't saved. and i would just like to point out, that you do not have the right to judge that. not even a little bit, and in all honesty, i'm willing to say you crossed a line. i might seem to taking that harder than neccisary, but i've already had my faith accused by people close to me, and i, just like everyone else on here, did not join this website in order to get accused of not having faith. I came here to learn and grow in a constructive way, and if you want to tell me that i'm mistaken in something, it is your God-given right to do so, but not like that, that was rude and uncalled for. (1 Corinthians 13).

but i'm ok, and i don't condemn you because of one crossed line (God knows i've crossed far more than one) so i forgive you, and won't hold that against you in future posts. i just wanted you to know how you come accross when you post things like that.

Hi Saint,
Thank you for the straightforward post. I do not know what you really believe until you tell me however if I do not speak what I believe then I am not being true to myself or to you. That you were upset means that you considered the words I wrote. Thank you for that. You are responsible for what you believe as I am for what I believe. To me God gave us a language to communicate. To me Son means son and Father means Father. Yes the son has the seed of the Father but the Father is the Father and the Son is the Son or we would have different words.
To me it is that simple
love
edwin

Originally Posted by charisenexcelcis

I would have the opposite view, which is how can I have Jesus "in me" if he is a limited, created being? Would that not be possession rather than fellowship?

Hi charisenexcelcis,
Thank you for participating. I am sorry if somehow I gave the impression that Jesus to me is limited to a created being. I believe he is God Son, begotton before the world was made. The world was made through him. He is the Word. The Word was made flesh.
To me there are thousands of lines which scream out that Jesus is the son of God and not God. Would you discuss this one with me, please.
1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own turn; Christ the firstfruits; then, when he comes those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion,authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that 'everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to Him who put everythiing under him, so that God may be all in all.
This is the Jesus Christ I believe in.
love
edwin.

Originally Posted by loveschild

Jesus was and is perfect. Hes God he didn't learn how to be perfect.

Hi loveschild,
I hope you are well. Scripture says that Jesus was perfected through suffering. Sinless but not perfect.
love
edwin

Originally Posted by AgeofKnowledge

You're confused and all over the landscape Ed. Christology is a coherent subset of theology and is systematic. If you want to understand the subject, I recommend you start with Lee Strobel's 'The Case For Christ' as a quick primer and then move into scholarly materials such as Dr. Norman Geisler's 'Christian Apologetics' with emphasis on Chapter 17 'The Deity and Authority of Jesus Christ' which begins with Jesus' fulfillment of prophecy, His uniquely miraculous life, and His resurrection from the dead. That is if you really wish to gain a scholarly understanding on this topic. You'll have to do the work though. I'm too busy to do more than provide the context and resources right now. Happy 4th btw .

Hi AgeofKnowledge,
Thank you very much for joining in and helping. As this is a huge subject I wonder if you would help me one question at a time.
The first question is this. Is God a priest in the order of Melchizedek?
love
edwin.

Originally Posted by ed

Hi charisenexcelcis,
Thank you for participating. I am sorry if somehow I gave the impression that Jesus to me is limited to a created being. I believe he is God Son, begotton before the world was made. The world was made through him. He is the Word. The Word was made flesh.
To me there are thousands of lines which scream out that Jesus is the son of God and not God. Would you discuss this one with me, please.
1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own turn; Christ the firstfruits; then, when he comes those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion,authority and power.
Can anyone accomplish this without the fullness of diety?
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
Do we have any King but God?
The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that 'everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject
If this subjection is not perfected until this time, than Jesus was not fully in subjection to God. Who but God is not fully subject to God?
to Him who put everythiing under him, so that God may be all in all.
This is the Jesus Christ I believe in.
love
edwin.

How is being the Son from all eternity differ from being God? do you believe that He is omnipotent, omnipresence, and omniscient?