"A Counterfeit Gospel"

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VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#21
My point isn't that I follow the Law, but rather that the change in my behavior comes as a result of following Jesus. Do you believe that the presence of Jesus in a person's life produces a change in that person's character? Do you believe that that change will be in according to the commandments to love God and to love your neighbor? Do you believe that the entire Law is summed up in those two commands?
Okay, I am glad that you brought this up. Actually, I know that when Jesus comes into a person's life, they are changed, in their hearts, by the Spirit. I believe that they are given the nature of God to grow into their life, by interaction with God. But when you say that the Law is summed up by loving God and your neighbor as yourself, this is absolutely true. But this is not the commandment of Jesus, is it? His commandment is to love one another even as He has loved us. This goes so far beyond loving your neighbor as yourself as to make it meaningless. In fact, Jesus said of loving your neighbor that it was not enough, but rather that we were to love our enemies also.

Anyway, I have had trouble with this saying for a long time now, that His commandments are for us to love God and our neighbors as ourselves. What I get from reading the scriptures and from the Spirit is that His commandments are to believe in Him, and to love one another even as He has loved us. And these are the commandments I follow, but not with thought or even intent, but rather by being filled with the Spirit, who gives me the cry "Abba Father," and who fills my heart with the love of God for everyone around me, even my enemies.

Blessings in Christ,
vic
 
I

Israel

Guest
#22
Exodus 20


And God spake all these words, saying,

2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13Thou shalt not kill.
14Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15Thou shalt not steal.
16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
18And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
19And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
20And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
21And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
22And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
23Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.
24An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.
25And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it. 26Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.

These commandments of God are indeed vital to us today. They are summed up in loving God and loving our neighbor, but we must understand the meaning of that love. These were not given to only the Jews. It was wrong for Cain to murder before God spoke it on the mountain. God also showed the spirituality of the Sabbath before the mountain as well.

We were told not to make any image of God. That means none.

Deuteronomy 4:13-20

And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

14And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.
15Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
16Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
18The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:
19And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven. 20But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

Right from the start with these verses, we see that God had commanded Israel to keep the 10 commandments that He wrote with His own finger! Then we see that the LORD commanded Moses to teach the statutes and judgements to Israel. There was no mediator when the ten commandments were given. And again, we are told not to make any image of any figure, male or female and that only the voice was heard. This is very important because in effect, it puts to bed all arguments of a trinity or any other image we as a people might come up with for God.

John 4:24

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

God, being a Spirit, spoke the ten commandments. Does this not make these ten spiritual as well? Every other statute or judgement was given to Moses to teach as a witness against us. We only fall under these when we disobey the ten. Now these statutes and judgements were taken out of the way in Jesus to now live in the spirit of obeying these ten. How can we love God if we continue to make images of Him? How can we love our neighbor if we condemn him off of those statutes and judgements that we believe were taken away?
 
I

ibewhoibe

Guest
#23
The cults today teach that Christ's perfect and full atonement wasn't good enough and that you are still under the law of Moses either partially or fully. This is the most common counterfeit Gospel found in the world today: That you are not saved by grace but by your own works.

Tthe central theme of the gospel is that in Jesus, God has revealed a salvation that is received by faith. Romans is an epistle that some have viewed as a systematic theology. In an orderly fashion, it affirms the universality of man's lost condition and states that Jesus Christ has provided necessary redemption. With respect to the Law of Moses, the work of Christ has superseded it. The author shows that "righteousness" is of God and, furthermore, that those who come to righteousness must do so through faith in Jesus Christ. Justification before God is a matter of faith and not of works.

Paul cites Abraham as a prototype of justification by faith. God provides the means; man responds in faith. Although God does not predetermine man's actions, God's determined will makes salvation possible. He has acted in a way that brings assurance of salvation, provided the recipient lives in faith.

The consequent life is a living sacrifice, displayed in constant array to God for all to see. The "new" man bears testimony to his newly found righteousness. Through unwavering faith, godly behavior, and a servant attitude, one becomes a living demonstration of the character of his Lord.

Galatians addresses a particular problem. Following Paul's teaching, there came teachers who did not understand the relationship between law keeping and faith. Since many references are made to the Law of Moses, one detects that the audience was heavily Jewish in background. Persons who felt that a right relationship with God was based on how well one observed the Law of Moses created the specific problem. Without diminishing the importance of right actions, Paul set forth a different basis for justification. The important dimension of justification is faith expressing itself through love.

Understanding the meaning of “faith” as used by Paul in Romans and Galatians is critical to interpreting his thought. As one approaches the texts of Romans and Galatians, one should be aware of a variety of meanings associated with the word throughout the New Testament. In the context of Romans and Galatians, “faith” is generally equated with the channel, means, or location of righteousness.

Righteousness is not found in law, but in Christ. It is not attained by human effort, but by God’s initiative in Jesus. The basis or ground of "righteousness" is the atonement. Faith is the channel through which righteous comes to us, the means by which we receive it. In this context, Paul’s injunction to “serve one another in love” and “live by the Spirit” (Rom. 13:9; Gal. 5:13-14, 16) implies that faith carries responsibility.

For Paul, “faith” embodies commitment and trust. It also assumes obedience, for in Christ one ceases being a slave to law and becomes a slave to God. James uses language similar to Paul when talking of the proper response of faith (see Jas. 5:16). But in the context of the Epistle of James, the claim to faith is empty if one neglects to perform the duties of a Christian. James asks, “What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?” (Jas. 2:14). When James says faith without works is dead, he is challenging those who claim to be Christians, but who act contrary to that claim. In favoring the rich, they despise the poor.

By their behavior, they deny the very faith they claim to hold. James is not denying the tenets of Paul’s teaching about where or how one is justified. He is showing the implication of that justification. For Luther to call James an epistle of straw hinders the complete picture of what faith is and what it calls us to be as justified people.

“Faith” has other nuances as well. The apostle John favors the verbal form of the word, and uses it mean assent to a truth. Following the report that Jesus had been seen in a post-resurrection appearance, Thomas said, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it.” A week later, Jesus appeared to him, showing him the signs he had requested. Jesus added, “Stop doubting and believe.” In this instance, to believe is to accept the resurrection of Jesus as a fact. Jesus continued with the statement, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” Then John adds his own note as to the purpose of his writing: “that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name” (John 20:24-31).

Having life is contingent upon accepting the fact of the resurrection. But elsewhere, we also know that acceptance of the fact of the resurrection is not sufficient for justification. There were many in Jerusalem who could not deny that Jesus had been resurrected. They had seen him. But this did not translate into a relationship with him. When the people gathered to hear the apostles speak at the first Pentecost following Jesus’ resurrection, they became convinced of the resurrection, ascension, and placement of Jesus at the right hand of God. It was at this point that they cried out, “What shall we do?” The apostolic response was simple, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:37-38).

These people were now convinced that Jesus had been raised, as were the Pharisees and Sadducees. But like the Pharisees, they remained captive to their sin, being condemned by the law they could not keep. Repentance would be a necessary step on the way to finding justification in Christ. As Paul explains in Romans, baptism would then be the act that portrayed their participation in the death of Christ, who alone can justify one before God.

Still further, faith is used to express unwavering dedication. This is especially apparent in the book of Hebrews. Faith is “defined” in the following way: “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see” (Heb. 11:1). “By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command” (Heb. 11:3). “By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings” (Heb. 11:4). “By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice” (Heb. 11:17).

Whether used by John, Paul, James, or the words of the author of Hebrews, the word “faith” is a powerful word. It expresses belief in a fact, the location of salvation, the performance of obligations, and long-term commitment. The context in which the term is used must be taken into account to sense the full and true meaning of the word. It would be a mistake to put Paul against James or to read into Paul something he was not advocating.

Surely, faith in Christ eliminates the possibility that human activity can merit the grace of God. But to eliminate appropriate deeds from the life of the Christian is to deny the very faith by which one may claim his salvation.

As in Romans, Galatians emphasizes that man can find righteousness only through faith in Jesus Christ. In both books, Paul insists, however, that acts of a sinful nature are to be set aside so spiritual fruit that reflects the Holy Spirit at work in one's life may be produced.

Together, Romans and Galatians establish the rationale for the gospel. Man cannot find this through meditation, self-denial, self-mutilation, observance of rules, or cult teachings. He cannot find it even through submission to regulations that are divinely derived. Only in and through Jesus Christ is righteousness attained and reconciliation realized.

If you have a serious interest in this topic, listen to 'The Law Accomplished' audio teaching for free from the Messages on the Law series found on this webpage:

Audio
Now will you please stop posting a couple false assertions and ignoring all the good information you are being given refuting the false theology you expouse. Thank you. We appreciate your cooperation.

Hey AOK,
I'm not stoping I've got a pack of wolves to Feed,
In reality, the first four of the Ten Commandments tell us how to love God, and the last six tell us how to love our neighbor, Christ's " new Commandment is that we are to love one another in the same way that He loved us , with sacrifical love. This in no way does away with the Ten Commandments. Rather it amplifies thier meaning, and shows that Christians are held to an even higher standard than was ancient Israel
(John 13:34)

We are to obey God's commandments not merely in the letter, but also in the spirit. This means fulfilling thier full meaning and intent, Jesus said that He did not come to destroy the law, but rather to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17) that is, to fill it to the brim with meaning. He illustrated this in the sermon on the Mount by showing that merely refraining from physical adultry was not sufficient; God requires that we not even look with lust upon a woman (Matthew 5:27-28) Merely refraining from the act of murder is insufficient; rather we are forbidden to harbor an attitude of hatred or contempt (Matthew 5: 21-22). Far from doing away with the law, the spirit of the law deepens it and makes it more binding,
If you wont hear Jesus now, you will in the end,
"I Be a Disciple of Jesus"
"I be In His Service"
 
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I

ibewhoibe

Guest
#24
I disagree. When you are following Jesus, you are doing just that, following Jesus. No Law. When you walk in the Spirit, it is without regard to any law. The Law was given as a covenant, to the Jews. Actually, according to Paul, this is what separated us from them. Actually excluded us from the promises of God. Paul wrote this, not me. And he further wrote that in the death of Jesus, these barriers were removed, the Law of the covenants.

Now, either you teach the Law, which means that you teach everyone to become a Jew, or you teach Jesus Christ. That is what Paul wrote.
Heres what John said
Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

My Point is: John said,Paul wrote, we could go on and on.

But if you wont listen to what Jesus Christ Said: "you dont follow Jesus"
Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments

There is no talking to you any-more

"I Be a Disciple of Jesus Christ"
"I be In His Service"
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#25
Hello my Seventh Day Adventist mission field. I will continue to post the truth in contrast to your heresy in the hopes that one day you will actually read it and respond to it rather than ignore it and continue to post the heretical doctrine of SDA.

Are you in bondage to Seventh Day Adventist theology? (Apologetics) (http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Intro/tabid/64/Default.aspx)

The 10 commandements were never a false doctrine but Seventh Day Adventist teaching regarding them qualifies as false doctrine.

Read 'Is the Christian Under The Bondage of the Ten Commandments?' : http://www.exadventist.com/Portals/0...H%20Savage.pdf

Us authentic Christians are not under the Old Covenant God had with the nation of Israel (The Law - Only One Covenant?). We are under a New Covenant in Jesus Christ with its glory and liberty as evidenced in the Old and New Testaments as the prophet Jeremiah stated in Jeremiah 31:31-34:

"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.

"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

Faith in Christ eliminates the possibility that human activity can merit the grace of God. However, to say that the New Covenant condones sin, which you appear to be arguing for in your haste to return to the bondage of the law, is a complete and false assertion. In both Romans and Galatians, Paul insists that acts of a sinful nature are to be set aside so spiritual fruit that reflects the Holy Spirit at work in one's life may be produced.

The Ten Commandments are part of the Old Covenant made between God and Israel. Notice the introduction to them:

“And God spoke all these words: ‘I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt...’” (Exodus 20:1,2). “Moses summoned all Israel and said: Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today” (Deuteronomy 5:1). (The Ten Commandments begin at verse 6).

It is misleading to quote the Ten Commandments but leave off the introduction which tells for whom they were intended. “When they are read in their context (Exodus 19-24), the Ten Commandments are seen to inseparably connected with the Old Covenant, while we are now under the New Covenant of Grace.” (J.O. Sanders).

Of course the Ten Commandments and the Old Testament contain many principles of behavior pleasing or not pleasing to God. These unchanging standards are repeated in the New Testament. Examples of these “moral laws” are found in Matthew 5, where Jesus quotes from the Ten Commandments, and then applies them to Christian behavior. Such laws are always in effect. But the Old Covenant itself, as a code or agreement, has passed away. (Hebrews 8:13).

Read Romans 6. Obviously we are to be dead to sin but alive in Christ and in Christ following the rightous law of love and morality written on our hearts. Attempting to earn this by practicing a Sabbath ritual, offering burnt sacrifices, observing the ceremonial washings, etc... given to Israel in the Old Covenant isn't part of this and its in error to go about it like it is.

Those practices were to be observed forever as long as the covenant endured, for they were part of the covenant. But now the entire covenant has been replaced by something better, as the book of Hebrews makes plain.

The Bereans have a good page on the subject at: (Cult Profiles)

Now I realized you were brought in SDA heretical teachings much like a Muslim is brought up in Islam or a Mormon in Mormonism and so believe them though they are not true. I will continue to shed light for you on what the scriptures say and what the apostolic church and all the early church fathers taught.
 
Jun 29, 2010
398
0
0
#26
Where did Jesus say to keep the 10 commandments? Where did He say exactly that?
I tell what scripture does say.

1st john 2
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.



If we do not obey Christ it is because we neither love Him nor know Him at all
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#27
You took this verse out of context. If you had finished reading, you would have seen that John tells us His commandments. Look and see if you can find them.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#28
He didn't take it out of context, the cult founders and the false prophetess of the cult he was born into did. He simply believed what they told him to believe.

1 John 2:3 is talking about keeping Jesus commandments. If he understood authentic early Christian church history and scripture correctly, he would know that in 1 John, the Apostle John is dealing with very early Gnostics and other opponents of the church that denied Jesus had come in the flesh.

John reminds us that the church is the custodian of the truth (Not the cult of SDA which came later and takes verses out of context to put people into the bondage of the Old Covenant which the New Testament repeatedly warns against such who do this).

John’s concern is the responsibility of the corporate community to discern false belief and practice, to distinguish between truth and error. While this theme is explicitly mentioned only in 1 John 4:1–6, nevertheless it is presumed throughout 1 John. The church must stand guard against any who would bring distortion or error (2 Jn 8).

But this presents a problem. How can we discern truth from falsehood? If a prophet urges something new under the authority of the Spirit (such as Christians are still under the Law of Moses except for the "ceremonial" portion), how can it be weighed?

John teaches that it must be weighed against scripture and apostolic church tradition. Throughout 1 John the author affirms that what was “from the beginning” should be the anchor for what we believe now (1 Jn 1:1; 2:13, 14; 3:11). In fact “from the beginning” becomes a refrain as John urges his readers to recall what they first learned and measure all else by it. “Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father” (1 Jn 2:24 NRSV). He says that his commandments are not new, but “old commandment that you have heard from the beginning” (1 Jn 2:7; 2 Jn 5).

John is not merely giving a stubborn defense of tradition, as if older is better. By “the beginning” he refers to the historic coming of Jesus Christ and the preservation of that revelation. What was revealed in the Incarnation must be the litmus test for all new theological insights. Thus in 1 John 1:1-3 John points to what he saw with eyes and touched with hands—the incarnate Christ. Historic christology must be the touchstone for all Christian belief. How do we know love? “God sent his son into the world” (1 Jn 4:9). Curiously his exhortation in 1 John 2:12–14 twice reminds the fathers—those who are older—to rekindle their acquaintance with the ancient teachings, things the younger generation may no longer treasure.

This theological anchor in historic christology is reminiscent of what we read in the Gospel of John. In his Farewell Discourse Jesus talks about the Spirit and the limits of what he will do. As Jesus’ words cannot deviate from the Father’s words (Jn 5:19), so too the Spirit will reiterate what Jesus himself has said in history (Jn 14:26). The Spirit “will not speak on his own, he will speak only what he hears” (Jn 16:13). In Christian faith Father, Son and Spirit provide a revelation that is self-consistent and harmonious. No later revelation contradicts what has gone before. John is affirming that Christian wisdom and truth, anchored in right christology, are cumulative and binding.

What John is NOT doing is teaching early Christians they have to return to legalistic bondage under the Law of Moses except for "ceremonial" law. That is a false teaching that began with the Seventh Day Adventist church.

1 John 2:3–6 is about obedience. It's not about being in bondage to the Law of Moses for our salvation and observing the Sabbath our we burn in hell forever with the devil at some point as SDA theology teaches, it's the test by which we can know whether, in spite of our failures, we are in right relationship with God!

This test is whether we obey Jesus Christ's commandments in our New Covenant relationship (stressed again in v 4; 3:22, 24; 5:3; cf. 5:2) with God. If we really know God, this will have a powerful effect on our daily lives. Knowledge is an important theme in this letter; the verb ‘to know’ (Gk. ginōskō) occurs twenty-five times (and oida, another verb meaning ‘to know’, fifteen times). The knowledge of God is not some mystic vision or intellectual insight; it is manifested when we obey Christ's commandments.

Obedience is not spectacular, but it is at the basis of all true Christian service. Anyone who claims to have this knowledge but does not do what Christ commands, SUCH AS THE EARLY GNOSTICS JOHN WAS WARNING THE CHURCH ABOUT IN THE BOOK OF 1 JOHN (empahsis added), John says forthrightly, is a liar. He underlines this by adding, the truth is not in him.

Now the Seventh Day Adventist has twisted this into if you don't obey the Sabbath under the Law of Moses, because Jesus Christ's atonement was not good enough, is devoid of the truth. See how these cults operate and why the Apostles resisted their heresy so adamantly even as John is doing here in this letter to the church in speaking out against the false teachings of early Gnosticism that was arising.

John goes on to say, by contrast, God’s love is truly made complete in the person who obeys his word. This does not mean that Christianity is a form of legalism. It means that God has revealed himself in Christ who is his Word (1:1; Jn. 1:1), and that the coming of Christ is a challenge to our whole way of life. We are challenged to abandon all self-seeking and to take up our cross; nothing less will do. We anticipate that John will say something about the obedient person’s having the truth of God in him. Instead we find that God’s love is in that person and not only in him but ‘truly made perfect’ (reb) in him. Love (Gk. agapē) is stressed throughout this letter. It occurs eighteen times, which is more than in any other book in the NT (next is 1 Corinthians, fourteen times). In such a short book this is very significant. Love is primarily seen in the divine self-giving of Christ (4:10), but the term can also signify the human response to what God has done; perhaps both are in mind here. Love is seen in obedience, for love delights to do God’s will.

The cults are so transparent and their error so clear if you understand scripture in light of church history.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#29
Well, okay, but there is a verse in 1 st John which specifically lays out what the commandments of Jesus are. I don't have my bible here, so I can't tell you chapter and verse, but I do remember these commandments. To believe in Him whom God has sent, and to love one another just as He has commanded us. I believe this is at the end of chapter 3. I find thar most believers ignore this passage, which includes our hearts not condemning us, which is why we have confidence before God and know that we have received the things we have asked of Him. It just does not agree with what they have been taught. This is sad to me, that scripture must be made to conform to preconcieved doctrines. (The Law is good, so we must live by it.)

But I believe that arguing beyond a certain point is not fruitful. I am thinking that that point is here.

Blessings in Christ,
Vic
 
M

machew

Guest
#30
It's a lot simpler than people think. Give your life to Jesus as Lord and Savior, Love God with all your heart soul mind and strength(1st most important according to Jesus), doing this gives you the ability to be obedient to the 2nd most important commandment, Love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus said that all of the law and prophets hang on these two commandments, so if you do the first, you will have relationship with God, which allows you to know what Love is to do the second, and through these two naturally do everything else without much thought.


Blessings,

Machew
 
I

ibewhoibe

Guest
#31
Hello my Seventh Day Adventist mission field. I will continue to post the truth in contrast to your heresy in the hopes that one day you will actually read it and respond to it rather than ignore it and continue to post the heretical doctrine of SDA.

Are you in bondage to Seventh Day Adventist theology? (Apologetics) (http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Intro/tabid/64/Default.aspx)

The 10 commandements were never a false doctrine but Seventh Day Adventist teaching regarding them qualifies as false doctrine.

Read 'Is the Christian Under The Bondage of the Ten Commandments?' : http://www.exadventist.com/Portals/0...H Savage.pdf

Us authentic Christians are not under the Old Covenant God had with the nation of Israel (The Law - Only One Covenant?). We are under a New Covenant in Jesus Christ with its glory and liberty as evidenced in the Old and New Testaments as the prophet Jeremiah stated in Jeremiah 31:31-34:

"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.

"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

Faith in Christ eliminates the possibility that human activity can merit the grace of God. However, to say that the New Covenant condones sin, which you appear to be arguing for in your haste to return to the bondage of the law, is a complete and false assertion. In both Romans and Galatians, Paul insists that acts of a sinful nature are to be set aside so spiritual fruit that reflects the Holy Spirit at work in one's life may be produced.

The Ten Commandments are part of the Old Covenant made between God and Israel. Notice the introduction to them:

“And God spoke all these words: ‘I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt...’” (Exodus 20:1,2). “Moses summoned all Israel and said: Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today” (Deuteronomy 5:1). (The Ten Commandments begin at verse 6).

It is misleading to quote the Ten Commandments but leave off the introduction which tells for whom they were intended. “When they are read in their context (Exodus 19-24), the Ten Commandments are seen to inseparably connected with the Old Covenant, while we are now under the New Covenant of Grace.” (J.O. Sanders).

Of course the Ten Commandments and the Old Testament contain many principles of behavior pleasing or not pleasing to God. These unchanging standards are repeated in the New Testament. Examples of these “moral laws” are found in Matthew 5, where Jesus quotes from the Ten Commandments, and then applies them to Christian behavior. Such laws are always in effect. But the Old Covenant itself, as a code or agreement, has passed away. (Hebrews 8:13).

Read Romans 6. Obviously we are to be dead to sin but alive in Christ and in Christ following the rightous law of love and morality written on our hearts. Attempting to earn this by practicing a Sabbath ritual, offering burnt sacrifices, observing the ceremonial washings, etc... given to Israel in the Old Covenant isn't part of this and its in error to go about it like it is.

Those practices were to be observed forever as long as the covenant endured, for they were part of the covenant. But now the entire covenant has been replaced by something better, as the book of Hebrews makes plain.

The Bereans have a good page on the subject at: (Cult Profiles)

Now I realized you were brought in SDA heretical teachings much like a Muslim is brought up in Islam or a Mormon in Mormonism and so believe them though they are not true. I will continue to shed light for you on what the scriptures say and what the apostolic church and all the early church fathers taught.
Good morn AOK,

I will say you sound like you know whats up!!! and I would hope that after this cup and I wake up good, I will pour into your post more heavly, as much work as you have done on this topic, it deserves looking into harder by me. I will say you've had me laughping with your opening statments about the

(Hello my Seventh Day Adventist mission field. I will continue to post the truth in contrast to your heresy in the hopes that one day you will actually read it and respond to it rather than ignore it and continue to post the heretical doctrine of SDA.)

"I be"
 
J

juspekatzus

Guest
#32
Jesus gave us 2 commandments-telling us- love the Lord our God-with all our heart,soul ,and mind,-the second-Love our neigbour as we love ourself. In doing so, all the law is covered. Our saviour makes it clear- Whosoever, is under the law- is not under his blood -therefore being under the law, that person must keep all the laws-without breaking any- in thought and deed. For whoever is under the law, will also die in the laws of sin and death. Us in Christ are free to live and love and be in peace with our neigbour-all over the world. Only those- whose sins are not covered by the sons blood, are not at peace, therefore hating those who yearn for peace. We must come together and pray them to Christ-then they will know their true father-not the one who lies to them.
 
I

Israel

Guest
#33
Jesus gave us 2 commandments-telling us- love the Lord our God-with all our heart,soul ,and mind,-the second-Love our neigbour as we love ourself. In doing so, all the law is covered. Our saviour makes it clear- Whosoever, is under the law- is not under his blood -therefore being under the law, that person must keep all the laws-without breaking any- in thought and deed. For whoever is under the law, will also die in the laws of sin and death. Us in Christ are free to live and love and be in peace with our neigbour-all over the world. Only those- whose sins are not covered by the sons blood, are not at peace, therefore hating those who yearn for peace. We must come together and pray them to Christ-then they will know their true father-not the one who lies to them.

How would you demonstrate that love for God and your love for someone of a different religion?
 
I

ibewhoibe

Guest
#34
Jesus gave us 2 commandments-telling us- love the Lord our God-with all our heart,soul ,and mind,-the second-Love our neigbour as we love ourself. In doing so, all the law is covered. Our saviour makes it clear- Whosoever, is under the law- is not under his blood -therefore being under the law, that person must keep all the laws-without breaking any- in thought and deed. For whoever is under the law, will also die in the laws of sin and death. Us in Christ are free to live and love and be in peace with our neigbour-all over the world. Only those- whose sins are not covered by the sons blood, are not at peace, therefore hating those who yearn for peace. We must come together and pray them to Christ-then they will know their true father-not the one who lies to them.
Hi Jus,
If you are following these two commandments from Jesus, you are following the 10 from our Father>.
and thier-for under the Law of the 10 Commandments
In reality, the first four of the Ten Commandments tell us how to love God, and the last six tell us how to love our neighbor, Christ's " new Commandment is that we are to love one another in the same way that He loved us , with sacrifical love. This in no way does away with the Ten Commandments. Rather it amplifies thier meaning, and shows that Christians are held to an even higher standard than was ancient Israel (John 13:34)
We are to obey God's commandments not merely in the letter, but also in the spirit. This means fulfilling thier full meaning and intent, Jesus said that He did not come to destroy the law, but rather to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17) that is, to fill it to the brim with meaning. He illustrated this in the sermon on the Mount by showing that merely refraining from physical adultry was not sufficient; God requires that we not even look with lust upon a woman (Matthew 5:27-28) Merely refraining from the act of murder is insufficient; rather we are forbidden to harbor an attitude of hatred or contempt (Matthew 5: 21-22). Far from doing away with the law, the spirit of the law deepens it and makes it more binding,
"I Be a Disciple of Jesus"
"I be In His Service"
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#35
Good morn AOK,

I will say you sound like you know whats up!!! and I would hope that after this cup and I wake up good, I will pour into your post more heavly, as much work as you have done on this topic, it deserves looking into harder by me. I will say you've had me laughping with your opening statments about the

(Hello my Seventh Day Adventist mission field. I will continue to post the truth in contrast to your heresy in the hopes that one day you will actually read it and respond to it rather than ignore it and continue to post the heretical doctrine of SDA.)

"I be"
It's purely out of love for people and God's Word. God doesn't love SDA members any less than anyone else. He loves them VERY much. But heretical teaching can deceive people who don't know any better and scripture, the example of Jesus and the apostles, and our love for people and God's Word demands an authentic accurate response. If I didn't love people and care what happens to them, I wouldn't bother. I care a lot. But what blows my mind is how very deeply God loves people. He wants them to come out of such deception and into the truth. Truly we serve a very great and very loving God.

The SDA stumbles badly on many points and constantly makes the false assertion that authentic Christianity teaches sin is OK which is a lie. 1 John and much of the New Testament is dedicated to refuting the Judaizers, earliest Gnostics, and other groups that were asserting the same thing in one form or another.

The SDA twists these verses so badly they actually try to use them against authentic Christians who accurately follow the teachings the Apostles. It would be akin to a Judaizer or early Gnostic taking what the Apostles were saying about them and repeating the Apostles' exact own words at the Apostle as if the Apostle was the one in error instead of the Judaizer or early Gnostic. You can actually look at it like that and it's ludicrous.
 
Jun 29, 2010
398
0
0
#36
I tell what scripture does say.

1st john 2
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.



If we do not obey Christ it is because we neither love Him nor know Him at all
You took this verse out of context. If you had finished reading, you would have seen that John tells us His commandments. Look and see if you can find them.
It says what it says. What is it about this passage that causes you pause?
 

Crypto

Senior Member
Nov 14, 2009
662
7
18
38
#37
Good word ibe. There are many counterfeit gospels out there many of them related to one another, such as OSAS, free grace easy believism ect.....
Eternal security isn't a false gospel.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#38
It says what it says. What is it about this passage that causes you pause?
No pause. Just read 1st John 3:21-24. Pay attention to what John says His commandments are.
 
I

ibewhoibe

Guest
#39
posted by:AgeofKnowledge
The objections from the SDA members here that Christians are under the bondage of the Law of Moses and bound to follow it has been refuted in this thread using the Word of God, the teachings of the Apostles, and a clear presentation of the history surrounding the early church. They aren't reading any of it apparently and simply ignoring what they are being given so they continue to repeat their false assertion that Christians are under the Law of Moses and must follow Seventh Day Adventist heresy. Please make a note of it. Thank you.

posted by: "I Be who I Be "
Heres the word of Jesus, So Ya'll Please make note of it, Take Heed!!!

Mark 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

(Here in Jesus Christ exact words he is objecting, You can bet "AOK" that Jesus is a member of Cristains Chat! Scripture says where two are more are gathered in His name, now documented in Mark 10:19 "AOK" Jesus is telling you "Thou Knowest".
So are you saying Jesus in his own words here, wants to repeat false assertions and because of what our heavnly Bother is saying that he is a SDA heresy, and you want us Christains to make a note of it? or are you asking Jesus to make a note of it??)

So "AOK" Jesus told you in his own words here in Mark 10:19 "Thou Knowest" so in Matt 5:19 are you trying to teach Jesus is a liar for what he said? "Thou knowest"
Please Note: The Apostles Mark and Matthew are New Testment Teachings, Jesus words are written in red!!!
 
"I Be a Disciple of Jesus" "I Be In His Service"
 
I

ibewhoibe

Guest
#40
No pause. Just read 1st John 3:21-24. Pay attention to what John says His commandments are.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
VW ,I posted these Scriptures as all they confirm to me is Keeping our Fathers Commandments are pleasing to Him? So what your point here??
"I Be"