Do you truly understand the Virgin birth?

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Slepsog4

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#21
Markhelp,

Mary remained a virgin until after Jesus was born (cf. Matthew 1:25)
 
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christiancanadian

Guest
#22
Of course Christ didn't have a sinful nature but his human flesh inherited the corruption from Adam.
If Jesus was a human being then he would have had to have had Adam's DNA, of course!
The bible says Jesus was a descendant of David and David was obviously a descendant of Adam.
Jesus's body was sown in corruption and raised in incorruption. Just like ours will be. Jesus's earthly body was of course, corrupted.

If Jesus did not have the same human flesh as ours, corrupted thanks to sin, then Jesus would have been not able to die. He also would probably not have aged very much, if at all. His human flesh would probably have been perfect and uncorrupted in any way.

If Jesus had none of Adam's DNA then why would God choose a human woman. God could have used a surrogate cow to give birth to Jesus or make him come out of a large egg like in the beginning of Monkey Magic.

So I don't buy this idea that the reason God used Mary was to avoid Adam's DNA. It's not about DNA at all. Jesus had Adam's DNA, otherwise Jesus was not human and could not die for us who were also inheritied Adam's DNA. Think about it. And take some biology classes.
Adam and Eve were made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26-27). As a result, all human beings are also in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 9:6). However, we are also in the image and likeness of Adam (Genesis 5:3). When Adam fell into sin, that resulted in every one of his descendants also being “infected” with sin. David lamented this fact in one of his Psalms: “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me” (Psalm 51:5). This doesn’t mean that his mother bore him illegitimately; rather, his mother had inherited a sin nature from her parents, and they from their parents, and so on. David inherited sin from his parents, just as we all do. Even if we could live a perfect life, we are still sinners as a result of inherited sin.
 
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christiancanadian

Guest
#23
all people inherited sin from Adam and Eve, specifically Adam. Sin is described in the Bible as transgression of the law of God (1 John 3:4) and rebellion against God (Deuteronomy 9:7; Joshua 1:18). Sin had its beginning with Lucifer, the “shining star, the son of the morning,” the most beautiful and powerful of the angels. Not content to be all this, he desired to be the most high God, and that was his downfall and the beginning of sin (Isaiah 14:12-15). Renamed Satan, he brought sin to the human race in the Garden of Eden, where he tempted Adam and Eve with the same enticement, “you shall be like God.” Genesis 3 describes their rebellion against God and against His commandments. Since that time, sin has been passed down through all the generations of mankind, and we, Adam’s descendants, have inherited sin from him. Romans 5:12 tells us that through Adam sin entered the world and so death was passed on to all men because “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). This is the condition known as inherited sin. Just as we inherit physical characteristics from our parents, we inherit our sinful natures from Adam.
 
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christiancanadian

Guest
#24
Being born sinners results in the fact that we all sin. Notice the progression in Romans 5:12: sin entered the world through Adam, death follows sin, death comes to all people, all people sin because they inherit sin from Adam. Because “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), we need a perfect, sinless sacrifice to wash away our sin, something we are powerless to do on our own. Thankfully, Jesus Christ is the Savior from sin! Our sin has been crucified on the cross of Jesus, and now “in Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Ephesians 1:7). God, in His infinite wisdom, has provided the remedy for the sin we inherit, and that remedy is available to everyone: “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9).
 
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christiancanadian

Guest
#25
Of course Christ didn't have a sinful nature but his human flesh inherited the corruption from Adam.
If Jesus was a human being then he would have had to have had Adam's DNA, of course!
The bible says Jesus was a descendant of David and David was obviously a descendant of Adam.
Jesus's body was sown in corruption and raised in incorruption. Just like ours will be. Jesus's earthly body was of course, corrupted.

If Jesus did not have the same human flesh as ours, corrupted thanks to sin, then Jesus would have been not able to die. He also would probably not have aged very much, if at all. His human flesh would probably have been perfect and uncorrupted in any way.

If Jesus had none of Adam's DNA then why would God choose a human woman. God could have used a surrogate cow to give birth to Jesus or make him come out of a large egg like in the beginning of Monkey Magic.

So I don't buy this idea that the reason God used Mary was to avoid Adam's DNA. It's not about DNA at all. Jesus had Adam's DNA, otherwise Jesus was not human and could not die for us who were also inheritied Adam's DNA. Think about it. And take some biology classes.

Again MahoganySnail,
Jesus was not born in sin; that is, He had no sin nature (Hebrews 7:26). It would seem that the sin nature is passed down from generation to generation through the father (Romans 5:12, 17, 19). The Virgin Birth circumvented the transmission of the sin nature and allowed the eternal God to become a perfect man.
 

BLC

Banned
Feb 28, 2009
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#26
Jesus Christ was the God-man, the hyper-static union. Though he was a man, He was all God and though He was God, he was all man. The Son of God and the Son of man. The word (God's incorruptable seed) became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth (John 1:14). In Him all the fulness of God dwells (Col 1:19). He took upon himself the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men, being found in fashion as a man (Phil 2:7,8). Who did Jesus Christ get his humanity from or how did the Word become flesh? He was always with the Father but He became flesh as we are flesh. He was tempted in all points as we are (Heb 4:15), He was of like passions as we are, yet without sin (2Cor 5:21). He was just as much made of flesh, blood (Lev 17:11) and bones as we are, and his humanity could not inherit His rightful place with the Father until He tasted death for every man through shedding His blood and being crucified (Heb 2:9), and to be raised from the dead, by the Holy Spirit, with a new body. This body that was raised incorruptable, was not to be touched by the other Mary, because He had not yet ascended (John 20:17).

He received his humanity from being born of a woman. Her pregnancy time was natural and normal and he was born as all others. He was even of Jewish descent and from the root, offspring and seed of David, pointing also to his humanity as a child of promise (John 7:42, Rom 1:3, Rev 5:5). The offspring of David can be traced from two of David's sons. In (Matthew 1) we have the line from Solomon to Jacob, the father of Joseph, Mary's husband. In (Luke 3) we have the line from Nathan to Heli, which is the father of Mary (not Joseph). Luke probably mentions Joseph because he was Mary's husband and the two were one flesh and God referred to Adam and his wife by calling them Adam (Gen 5:2). Joseph could not have had two different fathers.

God did not just borrow the woman's uterus but He impregnated her ovum through the conception of the Holy Spirit. In natural conception, the woman provides the ovum (egg) and the man provides the sperm to fertilize the ovum. In this case the Holy Spirit provided that which fertilized the ovum provided by the woman. Don't we have this treasure hidden in the earthen vessel that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us (2Cor 4:7). Jesus, as the son of man, received his humanity from the woman, while the divinity of Christ or God's divine nature came by the Holy Spirit through promise and by grace and truth, sent by the Father (John 1:17). If God provided both the egg and the sperm supernaturally, then Jesus Christ would have only divinity and no humanity.

Man was created from the dust of the earth and the woman was taken from the man. The woman was also of the earth being taken out of the man Adam (Gen 2:23). The earth constitutes the humanity and the flesh of both the man and woman. The nucleus of the ovum contained no products or by products of the old sin nature. Am I saying that the ovum (egg) is perfect? No! Just a human and neutral germinal cell, with DNA that can reproduce and develop into a human embryo or being. Other cells only reproduce themselves without development. The sperm of man carries DNA and the corruptible seed of the old sin nature of Adam, as well as the determining chromosome for gender identification, all within the nucleus of the male germinal cell. God provided a germinal cell that impregnated the ovum with God's divinity, the incorruptable seed (1Pt 1:23). When the nucleus of both germinal cells collided with fertilization they commingled into one nucleus. In this case humanity with divinity. If the nucleus of the ovum contained any corruption from the old sin nature, the incorruptable seed swallowed (destroyed) it up in victory when it commingled (1Cor 15:52-54). Remember this, it was divinity through the Holy Spirit, that penetrated and fertilized the human ovum and carried with it the 'Y' chromosome, for Christ to become a man (male gender).

JUST FOR THOUGHT

If man was successful in cloning human DNA, the old sin nature would still reside in the cells of the body whether it be male or female. Man would be unable to extract from the human cell, including blood cells, that which makes up the old sin nature because it can not be identified. The life of the flesh is in the blood, so our bodies and all our flesh contains the law of sin in all our members (Lev 7:11,14; Rom 6:19, 7:26). Recently, there has been advancements in stem cell research that has been able to create and produce an 'inactive sperm' from female stem cells. Their theory is to get the sperm 'active' (having the ability to germinate) to be able to fertilize the female ovum. If they were able to do that, the implication who be that they could bypass the transference of the old sin nature and produce a cloned female human being with no inherent sin nature. It would be impossible to produce a male clone from the 'female sperm', because the 'Y' chromosome that is needed, would be missing in the 'active female sperm'. There are lots of problems with producing an 'active female sperm' from stem cells because of the reproductive germinating properties of the male sperm that are not present in the 'female sperm'. This theory has provoked the demand for advanced stem cell research with the approval of embryonic stem cells, because theses cells have the property of becoming any kind of human cell within the first two weeks of the human embryo. The adult or umbilical cord stem cells do not have that property. I have said all this, because it has come up in the past and it is good to be able to give an answer so that others might believe through Christ.

JUST AN AFTER THOUGHT

If God had removed and eradicated the old sin nature from our bodies when we got regenerated and born again, the gospel would not have to be preached nor Jesus Christ and him crucified and we would have no need for the Holy Spirit in our life. Because without sin or the old sin nature we could reproduce after our kind and populate the earth with no sin. Thank God we still have the old sin nature and that is not blasphemy. Think of all the things that we have learned about Christ and what He did for us because of sin. They are innumerable and can not be measures. Just think about the mercy of God for starters. Yet we long to put on incorruption and immortality, with sin and death gone forever. So the next time you sin, don't get so upset or devastated and withdrawn. Draw near to God, come learn of Him and thank God through Jesus Christ that it wasn't you but the sin that is in you (Rom 7:17,20) and cry out 'NO CONDEMNATION'! (Rom 8:1) with the rest of the chapter.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#27
Again MahoganySnail,
Jesus was not born in sin; that is, He had no sin nature (Hebrews 7:26). It would seem that the sin nature is passed down from generation to generation through the father (Romans 5:12, 17, 19). The Virgin Birth circumvented the transmission of the sin nature and allowed the eternal God to become a perfect man.

If sin nature passed through the father and not the mother, then whether Mary was virgin or not would be irrelevant. The point of the virgin birth is that it is a miraculous event. I think reference to Adam in that passage of Romans is because Adam represents mankind. Adam was created first. Jesus was a perfect man because of the Holy Spirit. If we are talking about Jesus's soul, yes he had no sinful nature. But if we are talking about his flesh eg this statement of yours in your first post: I disagree.


JESUS' earthly flesh had NO TIES to Adam. It couldn't.
Jesus was of the seed of David :
Rom 1:3 about His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who was made of the seed of David according to the flesh,

and obviously if Jesus was from the seed of David he was from the seed of Adam and had Adam's DNA, bloodline etc as we all do.

Jesus's earthly flesh had ties to Adam , if it didn't, Jesus couldn't have died for us since Jesus wouldn't have been a human being like us.


 
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Porphyrios

Guest
#28
Jesus Christ was the God-man, the hyper-static union.
Actually that is the Hypo-static union.


Christ took on our human nature, so it would be inaccurate to say that He had no relationship to Adam. There is no reason to believe Mary had any children after Christ. Joseph was already on his second marriage and these others were Christ's half brothers and sisters.

As for the question of sin. Sin doesn't pass genetically, rather it is something that affects human nature as a whole. Christ, by uniting Himself with our nature purified it at the moment of His own Conception. For Mary, the Eastern Orthodox claim she was purified of sin while in the womb, and received further purification when she served in the temple sowing garments and such ,during her early years (before this is brought up, yes this is extra-scriptural or tradition). The Roman Catholics hold that Mary was purified from Sin at her conception due to Christ's sacrifice retroactively saving her (since Christ is not bound within time or space).
 

BLC

Banned
Feb 28, 2009
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#29
Thanks for the correction. Guess I got a little 'hyper'.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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#30
CORRECTION: It may be that the sinful nature is passed on by the father to the child, rather than the mother. Much like how it is the father that determines the child's gender. So to make this even more complicated, a theory may be that the females' egg alone does not have the sinful nature until it comes into contact with the fathers' sperm. Therefore, with this theory it could have been Mary's egg (without sin due to no contact with sperm) combined with the Holy Ghost (basically impregnating her but sinless because it is not from a man). Does this theory now change that Mary did not have the sinful nature? No. Mary still had the sinful nature because she was still in Adam's bloodline.
Mary was from the seed of david,Jesus's father is God
Who was adams mother?;)Was adam born with sin?

Love friend in God
 
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christiancanadian

Guest
#31
November 28/09
I have started reading a fantastic website that has this theory independantly of my own. In fact, she does a better job explaining it than I do and explains it further that it is from the father's sperm that "blood" is the key. I don't think I'm allowed to post this awesome website that I'm talking about, but message me and I'll get it for you. God bless.
 
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tryingtofindhim

Guest
#32
Do you truly understand the Virgin Birth?

by ChristianCanadian


I used to be one of many people who was distracted at Christmas time. I understood that Mary was a virgin who gave birth to Jesus. All of us of course, know the 'manger scene' with the baby Jesus.

WHY was Jesus born to a virgin! I didn't think too deeply on it, but I guess I heard the story so many times as a child, I just figured that Jesus was God in the flesh and he can be born however he wants!! lol.

However, there IS a deeper meaning as to why Jesus was born to a virgin and NOT conceived by earthly means. When I started thinking on this (I saw a short clip on it somewhere I think), it totally blew me away and made scripture all the more real to me. I'll share it with you, and some of you may be amazed that you missed it your entire life! Some of you may know this.

Jesus was born to a virgin, because he could NOT be born into Adam's bloodline. This proves how we are literally born into sin! If Jesus was born by earthly means, need I explain more, then he would still be born from Adam's bloodline. Quite simply, when Jesus was made into flesh, his sacrifice wouldn't have been sufficient because he would still have...you guessed it...Adam's bloodline (i.e. DNA, genes). THAT IS WHY JESUS WAS BORN OF A VIRGIN. HE WAS BORN UNCORRUPTED. JESUS' earthly flesh had NO TIES to Adam. It couldn't. Because of what Adam and Eve did, they corrupted the bloodline into sin. Jesus was born PERFECT.

All praise and glory to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!
Jesus was born to a virgin because sin comes through the man. Since Jesus had no earthly father, he had no sin. :)
 
Feb 27, 2007
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#33
HMMMM... a website with a womans theories that cant be posted in Christian Chat... I'm thinkin I'll pass on that one. Why cant it be posted here?
 
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ParadoxBrown

Guest
#34
Just to chime in here,

I think there is a principle involved here, that the church does not teach much, or is not aware of, has been overlooked, but that I do believe is Biblically sound:

Romans 5: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:..Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

What I think is overlooked here is that sin passed from Adam to all of mankind. We know from Genesis that Eve also sinned, and that Eve sinned first - yet the Bible clearly teaches that it was not through Eve, or through both Adam and Eve, that the sinful spiritual nature passed to all mankind - but rather the Bible teaches that the sinful nature only passed through Adam to his children, and all subsequent generations.

What this implies is that the spiritual nature of a child comes through his father, and not his mother. The flesh, the physical body, the physical DNA, the blood type (O, A, AB, etc.) are all attributes that are decided by a combination of the DNA of the father in the sperm, and the DNA of the mother in the egg. And the father's sperm does have more of a "say" in the child, because it is the father's DNA in the sperm that determines the gender of the child. Hair color, eye color, all looks, and genetic conditions are equally determined 50/50 by the mother/father's DNA - but gender is determined by the fathers contribution alone.

But there is no "sin gene" to be removed. The sinful nature of the soul/spirit is a spiritual thing - the flesh is sinful also - but the spiritual nature of the soul of the child is determined by a spiritual heritage line - which is a different matter from a physical heritage line. "Spiritual DNA" if you will, versus "Physical DNA". And I believe the Bible teaches that this "Spiritual DNA" is a different matter, with different rules, than that of physical genetic heritage.

The rules simply put, is that whatever the "spiritual nature" of the father, will be the "spiritual nature" of the child - and the "spiritual nature" of the mother is neutral in this matter.

The Bible I believe refers to the same principle in Ex 20:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

The Hebrew word here for fathers refers to male ancestry. As such the iniquities (generational curses) of the child's father, grandfathers, and great-grandfathers are visited on a child - I believe from both the paternal and maternal lines. But the iniquities of the mother, grandmothers, and great-grandmothers are not visited. The maternal line may have the same iniquities as their fathers did, iniquities are visited on children of both genders - but the curses only pass from the males. In this way, comparable to genetics, women may have the disease, but are not directly carriers- but their paternal ancestors continuing carrying the curses down to the children of a woman along an invisible spiritual line.

If this is true, then I believe this helps make the nature of Jesus make more sense. He had a fully human body, of fully sinful and corrupted flesh - but his "Spiritual nature" of His "spiritual DNA" came from God the Father - who is without sin. Being the only begotten son of God, Jesus' "spiritual nature" is that He is God. For anyone with an acceptance of the Trinity or Godhead, I hope this would make sense - that being the son of God, God who is unique and eternal, that Jesus also is in nature (spiritually) - God, unique and eternal.
So physically, Jesus was fully man - but spiritually, He was in nature God.

I would also like to say that I believe the Holy Spirit, at Jesus' conception, caused for human male DNA to be miraculously created by God, containing His spirit and spiritual nature - which then combined with the human DNA of Mary in her egg. God made all life to reproduce after it's own kind, and I believe God created according to His purposes, from Himself in His infinite powers of creation, perfectly human DNA, that contained in it His Spirit, and was from Him, to combine with Mary's egg. Jesus Christ was the literal son of Mary, and of God, and was both human, and the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form.

Just my thoughts.

God Bless!

-Paradox Brown
(And if you want to see the website ChristianCanadian (Thank you!!!) was referencing to, just google "A Modern Guide to Demons and Fallen Angels" which is an online Bible Study for anyone interested in spiritual warfare/ historical info on those subjects)
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#35
Don't stop there! Mary had an old sin nature like ever one else, so how was the old sin nature or Adam's bloodline not transferred to Christ but transferred to every member of the human race?
Through their father.
 
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greatkraw

Guest
#36
Good debate.

The old sin nature is passed down through the father.

Because 'The man sinned with his eyes open while the woman was deceived'.

The Holy Spirit fertilised one of Mary's eggs. (he overshadowed her)

The scripture says that Joseph did not know her until after Jesus was born.
 
Nov 12, 2009
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#37
Please explain this verse, then...
The Birth of Jesus Christ

18This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

It contradicts what you have said in your quote.... they were pledged to be married when he found out. That doesn't at all say they didn't know eachother!!!
Good debate.

The old sin nature is passed down through the father.

Because 'The man sinned with his eyes open while the woman was deceived'.

The Holy Spirit fertilised one of Mary's eggs. (he overshadowed her)

The scripture says that Joseph did not know her until after Jesus was born.
 
Nov 12, 2009
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#38
Just to clarify, coming together would be made to believe, be Me...and this is my opinion....to be married.
 
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Jordan9

Guest
#39
Please explain this verse, then...
The Birth of Jesus Christ

18This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

It contradicts what you have said in your quote.... they were pledged to be married when he found out. That doesn't at all say they didn't know eachother!!!
I think greatkaw meant Joseph didn't know her carnally. It is a polite way to say that they hadn't had sex.
 
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BobbyJoe

Guest
#40
I figure that God is holy and pure so He needed someone who was pure. Besides who wouldn't want a virgin anyway esp. if he was a virgin too.
Eph 5.5 says no impure person can inherit the kingdom of God; So his bride had to be pure and of his kingdom which the Jews were.
He kinda likes the ten commandments as well.
Ex 20.5 God is a jealous God and wanted His woman to be pure.
Ex 20 .14 He did not want to commit adultery so she had to be a virgin.
 
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