correct my summary

[zone]

[quote=AgeofKnowledge;351307]Doesn't matter how heretics feel about their execommunication. They are still teaching heresy. My advice would be to stop. It's really that simple.

quote]

before i get any more involved in this i have a question:
are you addressing me with this charge of heresy?
zone

[zone]

Originally Posted by VW

Jesus is fully God and man. No question about that. I think all that is being said is that Jesus is in the Father, and not the Father. One yet distinct.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


could you address this please?

why did you omit this in your prior post? which translation are you using?

[machew]

Originally Posted by Buddee

The "knowing" can only come through, not prior to, the relationship.

You can't limit God to the constraints of time. He created time and space and therefore operates outside of time. This is why Revelation 13:8 says "...belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world."

2 Peter 3:8 tells us:
"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

So because God is outside of time and can interact with any time in history or the future at any time, He already had relationship with us before we were born. From His perspective we were born, we were saved, and we died and are currently seated with Him in heavenly places all in the same instant.

[zone]

Originally Posted by zone

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


could you address this please?

why did you omit this in your prior post? which translation are you using?

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

could you address this as well, please?

[machew]

Originally Posted by ed

Hi,
I have read many posts discussing the Trinity and how this Trinity works. I want to lay down what I have picked up from these discussions and ask if I am understanding you. Then I need some clarification. I thank you in advance for your imput.
Trinity is a Godhead, Three distinct persons in one God. Each person is equal. Each person has a different function. Each person operates individually in their function.
The names of the Trinity are God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit each of the same essence, being equal, being individual and having different functions.

Enter Mary, with child of the Holy Spirit.

Now I ask .
Which function came down from heaven, to the body prepared, named Jesus Christ.
love
edwin.

Tbe best way to find out is to get to know Jesus and ask Him to show you. Asking for other people's opinion may help to answer your question, but not fully and only to a measure. Nothing will replace your secret time with God, where you really get to know who Jesus was through His Word and through the Holy Spirit.

[livingbygrace]

Originally Posted by zone

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


could you address this please?

why did you omit this in your prior post? which translation are you using?

Hi Zone

I read a sermon of Charles Spurgeon one day. In relation to everlasting Father in Isisaih9:6 he said

Jesus is our everlasting Father in relation to the new covenant, but the Son in relation to the Trinity.

He believed that Jesus was not the Father and the Father was not the Son

[Saint]

Originally Posted by ed

Hi Saint,
did Jesus obey the disciples or did the disciples obey Jesus?
love
edwin

Sorry, i was hiking. i'll be gone for a week, so i might not be able to answer replies. Char is right, they served each other

[zone]

THE GODHEAD


The Holy Spirit
Parakletos (g3875) par-ak'-lay-tos; an intercessor, consoler: - advocate, comforter.

John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth WITH you, and SHALL be IN you.

John16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I WILL SEND him unto you.

John14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the FATHER WILL SEND in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 14:18
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

...............................

The Holy Spirit
Parakletos (g3875) par-ak'-lay-tos; anintercessor, consoler: - advocate, comforter.

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

...............................

The Holy Spirit
Parakletos (g3875) par-ak'-lay-tos; an intercessor, consoler: - advocate, comforter.

Hebrews 7:24-25
But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

...............................


John 12:45
And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is BORN, unto us a son is GIVEN: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Ephesians 4:6
ONE God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and IN you all.

Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth ALL the fulness of the Godhead BODILY.

John 8:19
Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

John 8:23
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM he, ye shall die in your sins.

Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8:57-59
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

THEN TOOK THEY UP STONES TO CAST AT HIM: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

[zone]

Originally Posted by livingbygrace

Hi Zone

I read a sermon of Charles Spurgeon one day. In relation to everlasting Father in Isisaih9:6 he said

Jesus is our everlasting Father in relation to the new covenant, but the Son in relation to the Trinity.

He believed that Jesus was not the Father and the Father was not the Son

thanks living by Grace.
Spurgeon's attempt to explain this proves my point.

the twisting required there makes TWO FATHERS. the Old Father apparently went somewhere and the Son is now the NEW Father???? When Jesus supposedly "became" the Father, what happened to The Son?

or is Jesus, after the New Covenant a Step-Father, or Godfather or some new breed of Father? is the Father now the Son? HUH?

i wanted to know why Isaiah 9:6 verse is ALWAYS EDITED by those who DENY THAT JESUS IS THE GREAT I AM - Spurgeon's explanation is absurd. it is given as an attempt to needlesly justify a TRINITY instead of just understanding with simplicity THE GODHEAD.call it a Trinity if you want to - but not if it leads to IDOLATRY. there are NOT 3 GODS.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

i just can't seem to get a straight answer using ONE verse.


does this or does this NOT say Jesus is the Everlasting Father?

Jesus Himself said He is I AM.
He also told the Pharisees if they didn't believe it, they would die in their sins.

In order for anyone to RECEIVE an INHERITENCE, the ONE with the TESTAMENT (WILL) has to DIE!


John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

[AgeofKnowledge]

Salvation is historical. The OT view of salvation as effected through historic, divine intervention is fully honoured in the NT. As against Gnosticism, man is not saved by wisdom; as against Judaism, man is not saved by moral and religious merit; as against the Hellenistic mystery cults, man is not saved by a technique of religious practice; as against Rome, salvation is not to be equated with political order or liberty.

Man is saved by God’s action in history in the person of Jesus Christ (Rom. 4:25; 5:10; 2 Cor. 4:10f.; Phil. 2:6f.; 1 Tim. 1:15; 1 Jn. 4:9-10, 14). While the birth, life and ministry of Jesus are very unimportant, the stress falls upon his death and resurrection (1 Cor. 15:5f.); we are saved by the blood of his cross (Acts 20:28; Rom. 3:25; 5:9; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:20; Heb. 9:12; 12:24; 13:12; 1 Jn. 1:7; Rev. 1:5; 5:9). As this message is proclaimed and men hear and come to respond in faith God’s salvation is brought to them (Rom. 10:8, 14f.; 1 Cor. 1:18-25; 15:1 I; 1 Thes. 1:4f.).

The specifically covenantal language employed in Acts 20:28 (peripoieomai, “to acquire”; cf. Ex 19:5; Is 43:21) and Acts 20:32; 26:18 (hagiazō, “to sanctify”; cf. Deut 33:3) reminds us of Luke’s record of Jesus’ last meal with his disciples, wherein he grounds the “new covenant” in his own death (Lk 22:19–20).

Scripture teaches three persons in one God (e.g. monotheism) in perfect unity sharing the same essence yet fulfilling different roles.

All persons of God are equal in essence, but they do not have the same roles. It is a heresy (called subordinationism) to affirm that there is an ontological subordination of one member of the Trinity to another, since they are identical in essence; nonetheless, it is clear that there is a functional subordination; that is, not only does each member have a different function or role, but some functions are also subordinate to others. Very briefly:

The Function of God the Father:
By His very title of "Father" and His label of "the first person of the Trinity," it is manifest that His function is superior to that of the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Father, for example, is presented as the Source, Sender, and Planner of salvation.

The Function of the God the Son:
The Son, on the other hand, is the Means, Sent One, and Achiever of salvation. The Father sent, and the Son came to save us; the Father planned it, but the Son accomplished it on the cross. This is why it is a heresy (called patripassianism) to claim that the Father suffered on the cross. only the son suffered and died. Further, the Son is eternally "begotten" or "generated" from the Father, but the Father is never said to be "begotten" or "generated."

The Function of God the Holy Spirit:
According to orthodox theology, both East and West, the Holy Spirit is said to "proceed" from the Father, but the Father never proceeds from the Holy Spirit-that is, the Father sends the Spirit, but the Spirit never sends the Father. In addition, however, according to orthodox Western theology, the Holy Spirit proceeds both from the Father and the Son (see John 15:26) a point of difference between East and West.

The point of all this is that the Father is the Planner, the Son is the Accomplisher, and the Holy Spirit is the Applier of salvation to believers. You can say it like this, the Father is the Source, the Son is the Means, and the Holy Spirit is the Effector of salvation-it is He who convicts, convinces, and converts.

We see that God is in perfect unity and oneness with three persons fulfilling different roles.

Debate Topic: Is the Trinity Doctrine Biblical? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

"The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the three persons in the Godhead. Each are called God; each indwells the believer; each have wills; each speaks; each says you, yours, me, mine; each are self aware; and each are aware of others. The Father and Son relationship existed before creation and is still in existence now. We have the demonstration of the attributes of personhood and the manifestation of the inter-Trinitarian relationship of Father and Son. This relationship has not changed and will not change because God does not change, as Mal. 3:6 clearly teaches us. God is a Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is the true and living God."

[zone]

Originally Posted by AgeofKnowledge

Salvation is historical. The OT view of salvation as effected through historic, divine intervention is fully honoured in the NT. As against Gnosticism, man is not saved by wisdom; as against Judaism, man is not saved by moral and religious merit; as against the Hellenistic mystery cults, man is not saved by a technique of religious practice; as against Rome, salvation is not to be equated with political order or liberty.

Man is saved by God’s action in history in the person of Jesus Christ (Rom. 4:25; 5:10; 2 Cor. 4:10f.; Phil. 2:6f.; 1 Tim. 1:15; 1 Jn. 4:9-10, 14). While the birth, life and ministry of Jesus are very unimportant, the stress falls upon his death and resurrection (1 Cor. 15:5f.); we are saved by the blood of his cross (Acts 20:28; Rom. 3:25; 5:9; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:20; Heb. 9:12; 12:24; 13:12; 1 Jn. 1:7; Rev. 1:5; 5:9). As this message is proclaimed and men hear and come to respond in faith God’s salvation is brought to them (Rom. 10:8, 14f.; 1 Cor. 1:18-25; 15:1 I; 1 Thes. 1:4f.).

The specifically covenantal language employed in Acts 20:28 (peripoieomai, “to acquire”; cf. Ex 19:5; Is 43:21) and Acts 20:32; 26:18 (hagiazō, “to sanctify”; cf. Deut 33:3) reminds us of Luke’s record of Jesus’ last meal with his disciples, wherein he grounds the “new covenant” in his own death (Lk 22:19–20).

Scripture teaches three persons in one God (e.g. monotheism) in perfect unity sharing the same essence yet fulfilling different roles.

All persons of God are equal in essence, but they do not have the same roles. It is a heresy (called subordinationism) to affirm that there is an ontological subordination of one member of the Trinity to another, since they are identical in essence; nonetheless, it is clear that there is a functional subordination; that is, not only does each member have a different function or role, but some functions are also subordinate to others. Very briefly:

The Function of God the Father:
By His very title of "Father" and His label of "the first person of the Trinity," it is manifest that His function is superior to that of the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Father, for example, is presented as the Source, Sender, and Planner of salvation.

The Function of the God the Son:
The Son, on the other hand, is the Means, Sent One, and Achiever of salvation. The Father sent, and the Son came to save us; the Father planned it, but the Son accomplished it on the cross. This is why it is a heresy (called patripassianism) to claim that the Father suffered on the cross. only the son suffered and died. Further, the Son is eternally "begotten" or "generated" from the Father, but the Father is never said to be "begotten" or "generated."

The Function of God the Holy Spirit:
According to orthodox theology, both East and West, the Holy Spirit is said to "proceed" from the Father, but the Father never proceeds from the Holy Spirit-that is, the Father sends the Spirit, but the Spirit never sends the Father. In addition, however, according to orthodox Western theology, the Holy Spirit proceeds both from the Father and the Son (see John 15:26) a point of difference between East and West.

The point of all this is that the Father is the Planner, the Son is the Accomplisher, and the Holy Spirit is the Applier of salvation to believers. You can say it like this, the Father is the Source, the Son is the Means, and the Holy Spirit is the Effector of salvation-it is He who convicts, convinces, and converts.

We see that God is in perfect unity and oneness with three persons fulfilling different roles.

Debate Topic: Is the Trinity Doctrine Biblical? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

"The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the three persons in the Godhead. Each are called God; each indwells the believer; each have wills; each speaks; each says you, yours, me, mine; each are self aware; and each are aware of others. The Father and Son relationship existed before creation and is still in existence now. We have the demonstration of the attributes of personhood and the manifestation of the inter-Trinitarian relationship of Father and Son. This relationship has not changed and will not change because God does not change, as Mal. 3:6 clearly teaches us. God is a Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is the true and living God."

Hebrews 7
1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.


John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.


John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

[AgeofKnowledge]

We've already covered these verses in detail recently here on the forum and they fit squarely with all of scripture which itself is the basis of orthodox apostolic early Christianity (not to be confused with Oneness heresy).

Good article:

http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/oneness.htm

[zone]

Originally Posted by AgeofKnowledge

We've already covered these verses in detail recently here on the forum and they fit squarely with all of scripture which itself is the basis of orthodox apostolic early Christianity (not to be confused with Oneness heresy).

Good article:

Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity

you still haven't answered my question.
are you accusing me, based on what i have posted of this "Oneness" heresy?
please answer me directly.

[zone]

Originally Posted by AgeofKnowledge

We've already covered these verses in detail recently here on the forum and they fit squarely with all of scripture which itself is the basis of orthodox apostolic early Christianity (not to be confused with Oneness heresy).

Good article:

Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity

ok.
i will wait to see if you are accusing me of heresy. if not, i'm done. if so, i'm not done.

in the meantime, here are some verses that haven't been covered here.


Hebrews 7
1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.


Hebrews 5

5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. 11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Originally Posted by charisenexcelcis

Jesus served the disciples and the disciples served Jesus.

Hi charisenexcelcis,
Did Jesus teach the disciples or did the disciples teach Jesus. If Jesus taught the disciples did they learn and obey his teaching?
The attitude scholars have in common is the use of tactics and these are used for self-justification, for the truth is not found nor looked for through their use.

love
edwin

Originally Posted by charisenexcelcis

I agree with all you said, though I think it is a bit harder to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. The submission of the Son to the Father is not one of lesser nature, but of eternal relationship. I have no problem saying that the Son of God came in the flesh. What I insist is that Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man.

Hi charisenexcelcis,
It pleases me greatly to read that you believe that the Son of God came in the flesh. For this is reason I have spent days on this forum typing out text. I look forward to seeing your practising this during your teachings here on this forum. I fear greatly for those who proclaim God came in the flesh because WORDS are life and death and if your word can't say it, the Son of God came in the flesh, then your heart does not believe it and you have rejected the Son.
love
edwin

Originally Posted by ed

Hi charisenexcelcis,
Did Jesus teach the disciples or did the disciples teach Jesus. If Jesus taught the disciples did they learn and obey his teaching?
The attitude scholars have in common is the use of tactics and these are used for self-justification, for the truth is not found nor looked for through their use.

love
edwin

Both, although the disciples teaching Jesus was incidental. Two people who spend three years together are going to learn from each other. I do not think that is what you are asking.

Jesus revealed God and the gospel of the kingdom to the disciples who followed it imperfectly, as fallable humans will. I think this is what you are asking. Jesus taught the disciples, then the Father sent the Holy Spirit to bring to their remembrance what Jesus had taught.

Originally Posted by ed

Hi charisenexcelcis,
It pleases me greatly to read that you believe that the Son of God came in the flesh. For this is reason I have spent days on this forum typing out text. I look forward to seeing your practising this during your teachings here on this forum. I fear greatly for those who proclaim God came in the flesh because WORDS are life and death and if your word can't say it, the Son of God came in the flesh, then your heart does not believe it and you have rejected the Son.
love
edwin

I am not comforted by your words. I believe that you may be looking to hold me to doctrines that I do not believe by interpreting my words in ways that I do not mean.

Originally Posted by zone

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


could you address this please?

why did you omit this in your prior post? which translation are you using?

Hi Zone,
1 Corinthians 4:15 "Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father, through the gospel."
1 Cor 11:3 Now I want you to realise that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man and the head of Christ is God.

If Paul claims he is one of our fathers as he taught us of the gospel, do you think it is too far a stretch for Jesus also to be called Father.
love
edwin

[livingbygrace]

Originally Posted by ed

Hi Zone,
1 Corinthians 4:15 "Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father, through the gospel."
1 Cor 11:3 Now I want you to realise that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man and the head of Christ is God.

If Paul claims he is one of our fathers as he taught us of the gospel, do you think it is too far a stretch for Jesus also to be called Father.
love
edwin

Paul stated that Abraham was the Father of asll those who had not been circumcised but believed in order that righteousness might be credited to them. So I suppose Abraham could be called an everlasting Father.

I in no way diminish that Christ is the eternal Son of God and that the very nature of the Father is on Christ. But we do need to be careful when reading scripture and jumping to conclusions