correct my summary

Re: heresies.
1. First, for those who dislike the word, perhaps hetero-orthodox might function in some cases. It means to hold an view other than the orthodox view. (I know our orthodox brother will like that, he can call us all hetero-orthodox, lol.)
2. There are three different issues we must consider when looking at unorthodox views:
First, there are the honest disagreements between Christians. These most often occur because two Christians will see different aspects of the same issue.
Second, there are beliefs that are imbalanced. These views are correctable but not immediate matters of salvation.
Third, there are belief systems that oppose Biblical salvation. Those who hold these views are practicing a different faith than Christianity. We must be concerned and respond to these for the sake of those enslaved in such systems and for the sake of those who might be swayed by them.
2. In all three cases, our goal is not to prove ourselves right. Response must have love at the heart of it and the salvation and strengthening of others as our goal.

[phil36]

Originally Posted by zone

Re: Dr. David Bernard - The Identity of Jesus Christ

'' I am who I am'' is God's title!. Jesus is the title of the Son and God's Spirit is the Holy Spirit.

YYou arte totally correct to say Jesus is God, So is the Holy Spirit and ''I am who I am'' all three are one God yet seperate 'persons' for a lack of a better word, this is not to say they are individualistic for that would be false but of the same substance. All three members of the Godhead work together in perfect harmony, perfect relationship and Holiness.

Blessings

Phil

which is it Phil?

are they "individualistic" or not? and why do you qualify your use of the word "persons"? it seems to work for you in other posts. not so sure of your MIRACULOUS GRASP of the GodHead?

i don't speak for anyone else on this thread, not the Oneness thing or any other thing you talk about. i don't know about that. i speak for myself here.

but you are SO sure of yourself that you dare to sit in judgment of a Christian who professes that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God? that the Word was God and the Word became flesh? God manifest in the flesh to make a full and finished work of Atoning for the sins of men, and was Raised from the Dead?

and that salvation is by faith alone in the finshed work of Jesus the Christ?

and you dare to equate what i and others have written to describe our understanding of the GodHead as the work of SATAN IN THE GARDEN?

the only problem with being God's Hammer, Phil is that EVERYONE becomes a nail. it's you who has a problem.

Nope, I am talking of the Trinity, zone. and secondly none of my posts were actually directed at you personally, although, if you do not believe in a foundational truth of Christianity I can see why you are so upset.

I don;t thing=k you have understood my post. The Christian belief of the God head is that there is only one God, yet three persons, one substance, who are co equal and work together in perfect harmony through love.

Now there is a huge problem when someone does not believe this! I don't have to explain it the church from the start has regarded 'modalist (oneness) as heretics.

Now to look at your question, simply put God is not three seperate persons or 'Individuals' but three persons sharing the same substance, the same attributes of diety. that is why I say not 'individualistic'. I am not being a hammer for God, I am stating a foundational truth of Christianity.

Now you have taken offence of my statement regarding how satan uses 'subtleness' to get us to believe his lies... well, to be honest it is true, he does.

Every heresy has subtleness to it, it almost sounds right, infact it almost could be right.. or atleast sound right..... have a read of the dialogue between the serpent and Eve!

All I can say is oneness is heresy, you may be upset about this, and it seems you are, but I will not stop speeking the truth just because it offends peoples ears. And especially of great concern is the amount of people who call them Christians yet deny the Trinity. shame.

Blessings

Phil

[phil36]

Originally Posted by VW

According to John, every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.

I have a friend, been my friend for over 30 years, and during that time, we have both been receiving revelation from the Spirit into the nature of God and what He wants from us, what is important. Many times, too many to count, we have disagreed over these things. One of us would try to convince the other, and many times there was actually doubt raised rather than increased faith and love. We have learned, over the many discussions we have had, to let the other speak, listen to the Spirit in our hearts, and share what is given rather than challenge what the other says. We have been doing this for a long time now, and it works. We have actually grown closer and closer in our thoughts and beliefs rather than apart. This because we know in our hearts that the other is in Jesus, and we each seek to see what the Spirit says about what we hear.

There are many things which we believe that although they are right and correct, can be a stumbling block to others, if we lay them out in a certain fashion. I only ask that we think on this, and seek the Spirit about what we should say, and how we should say it. In the end, He is the arbiter of all truth, at least I believe Him to be so.

In His peace and love,
vic

Hi Vic,

I have covered this in another thread and I totally full heartedly agree with you about what John says, But doesn't Paul also say, that whoever confess' Jesus as lord... can you see what I am saying, we cannot just take one verse and make it say what we want.. we have to look at the totallity of what scripture says.

Blessings

Phil

[phil36]

Originally Posted by livingbygrace

Leaving aside weho is right and who is wrong John also said

If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God God lives in him amd he in God. 1John4:15

So you do not have to acknowledge Jesus is God Himself for true Christianity. But many who say Jesus is God Himself say you do. This is unscriptural

Romans 10:9

Romans 10:9 (English Standard Version)

9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

[livingbygrace]

Originally Posted by phil36

Romans 10:9

Romans 10:9 (English Standard Version)

9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

This is simply human resoning trying to put aside plainly written scripture. Why did you not quote from the KJV Phil?

The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord and his name the only name. Zech14:9

[phil36]

Originally Posted by livingbygrace

This is simply human resoning trying to put aside plainly written scripture. Why did you not quote from the KJV Phil?

The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord and his name the only name. Zech14:9

OH no not the KJV only debate, I personally don't use the king James, although, I do look it it up now and again. I use the ESV. and for easier reading at work the NLT. So there was no reason really other than that.

Zechariah 14:9

And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one.


Blessings

Phil

[VW]

Originally Posted by phil36

Hi Vic,

I have covered this in another thread and I totally full heartedly agree with you about what John says, But doesn't Paul also say, that whoever confess' Jesus as lord... can you see what I am saying, we cannot just take one verse and make it say what we want.. we have to look at the totallity of what scripture says.

Blessings

Phil

I think what I am trying to say is that if we always follow scripture, rather than the Spirit, then we will end up making enemies and not building the church. This may sound trite, but the letter kills, while the Spirit gives life. Please don't think that I am accusing you of killing, nor am I trying to throw out the scriptures, but rather that we do walk in love.

I look at those whom Jesus was displeased with by their doctrine, those he called heretics. And I see that it had nothing to do with their views of who or what God is, but on how they acted towards others, on their lack of love for God or for their brothers. They used their knowledge of the scriptures to hold others in contempt and disdain, because this pleased their self image and ego and quest for power.

I find that love will change a mind because it changes the heart. It is after all how God opened the doorway to our hearts.

Blessings in His love,
vic

[livingbygrace]

Originally Posted by phil36

OH no not the KJV only debate, I personally don't use the king James, although, I do look it it up now and again. I use the ESV. and for easier reading at work the NLT. So there was no reason really other than that.

Zechariah 14:9

And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one.


Blessings

Phil

And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord and his name one KJV

So you pick your translations to try and help you overturn what John said. Oh well!

Lets try Paul instead.

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in Heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many gods and many lords) yet for us there is but one God, the Father. 1Cor8:5

[phil36]

Originally Posted by livingbygrace

And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord and his name one KJV

So you pick your translations to try and help you overturn what John said. Oh well!

Lets try Paul instead.

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in Heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many gods and many lords) yet for us there is but one God, the Father. 1Cor8:5

Oh deary me.. I used it because thats what I use the ESV.

Zechariah 14:9 (King James Version)


9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zechariah 14:9 (English Standard Version)


9And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one.


Now what exactly do you, please read both. Thanks

Phil

[livingbygrace]

Originally Posted by phil36

Oh deary me.. I used it because thats what I use the ESV.

Zechariah 14:9 (King James Version)


9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zechariah 14:9 (English Standard Version)


9And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one.


Now what exactly do you, please read both. Thanks

Phil

I read the NIV but sometimes refer to the KJV

[phil36]

Sorry LBG I fogot to answer your question on what Paul says, unfortunatly you only provided one part of what Paul is saying I will provide the rest.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English Standard Version)

5For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"— 6yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

I don't even think it needs an answer do you? do you notice How we exist through Both? this all the more points to both having the same attributes of diety

Blessings

Phil

[livingbygrace]

Originally Posted by phil36

Sorry LBG I fogot to answer your question on what Paul says, unfortunatly you only provided one part of what Paul is saying I will provide the rest.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English Standard Version)

5For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"— 6yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

I don't even think it needs an answer do you? do you notice How we exist through Both?

Blessings

Phil

Well I would have been happy to quote it all, it simply proves my point. You are trying to reason what you wish to believe against very plain scripture.

Now if I have got this correct you accept there is only one true God, the Father. Yet you also say Jesus is true God. Therefore I suppose you must believe that Jesus is the Father. But I didn't think you did.

You appear to have accepted my scripture verses, therefore you would accept Jesus words that the Father is greater than the Son. But how can that be right if Jesus is God Himself. This is too much for me, I am a simple person

Originally Posted by VW

I think what I am trying to say is that if we always follow scripture, rather than the Spirit, then we will end up making enemies and not building the church. This may sound trite, but the letter kills, while the Spirit gives life. Please don't think that I am accusing you of killing, nor am I trying to throw out the scriptures, but rather that we do walk in love.

I look at those whom Jesus was displeased with by their doctrine, those he called heretics. And I see that it had nothing to do with their views of who or what God is, but on how they acted towards others, on their lack of love for God or for their brothers. They used their knowledge of the scriptures to hold others in contempt and disdain, because this pleased their self image and ego and quest for power.

I find that love will change a mind because it changes the heart. It is after all how God opened the doorway to our hearts.

Blessings in His love,
vic

Greetings,

Thank You Vic, you Sir are truly a blessing to my heart, as I learn more and more from the Spirit as you onpenly open that up, Out of every one that Post here, I always look for your wisdom, You have showed me what the spirit was saying to me the whole time, it is all about LOVE, and I love You and the Lord, You my Brother are so right, and everyone should take a look at what the Spirit is Saying. and I know I should be one to talk, but I'm still a work in progress, and with Angels like you Sir, There is Hope!

Our Father know's your works, and I testifi to Him about you, and where one or more are gathered,
" Thank You From I Be "

[phil36]

Originally Posted by livingbygrace

Well I would have been happy to quote it all, it simply proves my point. You are trying to reason what you wish to believe against very plain scripture.

Now if I have got this correct you accept there is only one true God, the Father. Yet you also say Jesus is true God. Therefore I suppose you must believe that Jesus is the Father. But I didn't think you did.

You appear to have accepted my scripture verses, therefore you would accept Jesus words that the Father is greater than the Son. But how can that be right if Jesus is God Himself. This is too much for me, I am a simple person

You are obviously not reading what I have said before LBG, i have not said Jesus is the Father. I will refer you again back to my post in another thread which you chose not to read.
Dr. David Bernard - The Identity of Jesus Christ

It is what Christians have believed from the start. All three 'pershoods' of the trinity are God, this makes up the Godhead, all three are of the same substance. all three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit co exist in a co-equal loving eternally existing relationship love and Holiness and glory. yet there is a distinct heirarchy, the Father sends the son, and the Father and Son send the Holy Spirit. This is the truth of Scripture and has always been for the church (the body of Christ). anything else has been rejected as heresy.

Yet we will never truly be able to fathom out all the great mysteries of our awesome triune God. For He is the creator, we are the creature, human logic will never be able to reason with God, or grasp His vastness in Glory.

Blessings

Phil

[livingbygrace]

Originally Posted by phil36

You are obviously not reading what I have said before LBG, i have not said Jesus is the Father. I will refer you again back to my post in another thread which you chose not to read.
Dr. David Bernard - The Identity of Jesus Christ

It is what Christians have believed from the start. All three 'pershoods' of the trinity are God, this makes up the Godhead, all three are of the same substance. all three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit co exist in a co-equal loving eternally existing relationship love and Holiness and glory. yet there is a distinct heirarchy, the Father sends the son, and the Father and Son send the Holy Spirit. This is the truth of Scripture and has always been for the church (the body of Christ). anything else has been rejected as heresy.

Yet we will never truly be able to fathom out all the great mysteries of our awesome triune God. For He is the creator, we are the creature, human logic will never be able to reason with God, or grasp His vastness in Glory.

Blessings

Phil

I completely agree with you human reasoning is a stumblingblock to the things of God. That I believe is the problem.

Jesus said the Father was the only true God. So as Jesus said that I believe him. You say Jesus is true God as well, So if the Father is the one true God and you believe Jesus is as well true God then Jesus must be the Father

Jesus also plainly stated that the Father is greater than the Son and I accept his words. No need for human reasoning and logic there

I am not the one here using human logic and reasoning

[phil36]

Originally Posted by livingbygrace

I completely agree with you human reasoning is a stumblingblock to the things of God. That I believe is the problem.

Jesus said the Father was the only true God. So as Jesus said that I believe him. You say Jesus is true God as well, So if the Father is the one true God and you believe Jesus is as well true God then Jesus must be the Father

Jesus also plainly stated that the Father is greater than the Son and I accept his words. No need for human reasoning and logic there

I am not the one here using human logic and reasoning

Are you sure???

"Then they asked him, 'Where is your father?' 'You do not know me or my Father,' Jesus replied. 'If you knew me, you would know my Father also'" (John 8:19) "'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" (John 8:58). "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).
"Then they asked him, 'Where is your father?' 'You do not know me or my Father,' Jesus replied. 'If you knew me, you would know my Father also'" (John 8:19) "'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" (John 8:58). "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

Im just going for a dinner break but have many more. of course you are not forgetting about the famous 'I Am' statements in John are you????

Blessings

Phil

[mpaper345]

The Bible says Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit because it is God in spiritual activity.There is no God the Son but the Son of God.

The Bible says when the fulness of time was come God sent forth His Son made of a woman made under the law.

The Son was made of a woman not existing before except a plan in the mind of God so it was the same as if the Son was already in the beginning.

The Son was made under the law not before the law.

The Son is the man Christ Jesus conceived by the Holy Spirit,not a second person of a trinity.

Father,Son,and Holy Spirit,are the 3 relationships God has with His people designated by titles.

Father-parent of the saints.
Son-God's personal human body.God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus.God's visible relationship to the saints.
Holy Spirit-God's invisible relationship to the saints.

God is a Holy Spirit.Father is a title for God the Holy Spirit.

When we mention Holy Spirit we are saying that is what God is a Holy Spirit.

When we mention Holy Spirit we are saying God in invisible activity.

When we mention Son we are saying God in visible activity.

There is only one God who is a Holy Spirit.Father is a title for God the Holy Spirit.The Son is the man Christ Jesus,the personal human body of God the Father.

There are only 2 persons,God the Holy Spirit and the man Christ Jesus.

The Father is God the Holy Spirit.The Son is God the Father in visible activity.The Holy Spirit is God the Father in invisible activity.

If the Son has no beginning like the Father then why is He called the Son seeing He was not begotten.

The Son is the man Christ Jesus so he can have a beginning and give meaning to the term Son.

If the Father is our Father then why does the Bible say that Jesus created all things,that would mean that Jesus is our Father.

Jesus is God the Father in a visible manifestation to mankind.God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God.Jesus is God who created all things.Jesus is fully God and fully man.

If Jesus is a created God it could not be true because God the Father said there would be no God created after Him.

There is only one God who is a Holy Spirit.Father is a title for God the Holy.

When we mention Son we are saying God the Father in visible activity.

When we mention Holy Spirit we are saying what God is a Holy Spirit and God in invisible activity.

Jesus is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,for Jesus is God who created all things,manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and dwells in the saints.

Jesus said if you see Him you have seen the Father,and the Holy Ghost will come to you,which Jesus said I will come to you.

It is simple there is only one God who is a Holy Spirit.

When we mention Father we are saying that God the Holy Spirit is our parent.

When we mention Son we are saying God in visible activity and God the Father's visible relationship to the saints.

When we mention Holy Spirit we are saying what God is a Holy Spirit and God the Father's invisible relationship to the saints.

It is God who is a Holy Spirit doing it all that goes by the title Son of God,God's visible relationship to the saints,and the title Holy Spirit,God's invisible relationship to the saints.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace(Isaiah 9:6).

Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I(Isaiah 52:6).7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake(John 14:7-11).

The Old Testament says that the Son shall be called the everlasting Father.

God the Father said one day He would reveal a new name to the Jews and would speak to them.

Jesus said if you have seen them then you have seen the Father for Jesus is God the Father robed in flesh who revealed to the Jews His new name Jesus and spoke to them by His Son,the man Christ Jesus,the Father's personal human body and the way the saints will see the invisible God for eternity as God the Father sits on the throne in heaven in the glorified body of His Son,the man Christ Jesus for it is the throne of both God and the Lamb.

Jesus said to His disciples that when He goes to heaven to not ask Him for anything but only ask the Father and He will do it.In another passage of scripture Jesus said when He goes to heaven ask Him and He will do it.

Jesus as the Son,the man Christ Jesus,prayed to the Father for His disciples,but when Jesus went to heaven the disciples prayed to Jesus as the Father.

Jesus is full God and fully man.We are the same as Jesus but Jesus is the fulness of God's attributes where the saints have partial attributes.

Jesus is God the Father.

Matt

[livingbygrace]

Originally Posted by phil36

Are you sure???

"Then they asked him, 'Where is your father?' 'You do not know me or my Father,' Jesus replied. 'If you knew me, you would know my Father also'" (John 8:19) "'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" (John 8:58). "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).
"Then they asked him, 'Where is your father?' 'You do not know me or my Father,' Jesus replied. 'If you knew me, you would know my Father also'" (John 8:19) "'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" (John 8:58). "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

Im just going for a dinner break but have many more. of course you are not forgetting about the famous 'I Am' statements in John are you????

Blessings

Phil

I shake my head here.

I give you the most plain of statenments and in your heart you do not believe them. But you will take statements that are not plain and grasp them and try and make them fit in with man made beliefs. Who is using the human logic and reasoning here?

Remember Jesus plainly stated the Father was the only true God

And he also plainly stated that the Father was greater than the Son.

Paul clearly stated that everything had been put under Jesus feet, but this did not include God Himself.

And Paul also plainly stated the Son would become subject to the Father

You appear to say you believe this; but I don't see how you can with your beliefs.

So you are dismissing plain scripture and putting your own interpretation on the scripture you produce, whereas I simply accept Jesus and Paul's plain words .

Who is using human reasoning and logic here?

I will simply take one of your points. As you dismiss the plain and simple words of God the Father, Jesus, the Apostle Paul and the Disciple John it is pointless in trying to have a discussion with you. You cannot accept Jesus own words

I and the Father are one

That all of them may be one Father, just as you are in me and I am in you may they also be in us, so that the world may believve that you have sent me.
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one. John17:21&22

Firstly it is normally oneness people who have quoted this to me, and by your thinking you must believe Jesus is the Father even if you cannot see it.

So just as Jesus is in the Father and the Father in Jesus may we also be in the Father and the Son?

So how can that be Phil? How can you be in me and I be in you? Only in the Spirit. And that is how we are in the Father and the Son

That they may be one as we are one

We can only be one in the Spirit.

So if we can be one as the Father and Son are one does this prove Jesus is God Himself? I suppose with much human reasoning you may come to that conclusion if you really want to.

None of the rest of your verses say that Jesus is God Himself. But the words of the Father were spoken through Jesus



I will raise up for them a prophet like you from, among their brothers I will put my words in his mouth and he will tell them everything I command him Deut:18:18

Who is being spoken of here Phil? As the Father put His words in Jesus mouth do you not think Jesus would say. 'If you knew me you would know my Father also.?'

The problem is you have been taught by men, and put that before the Bible.

I have to keep coming back to the same thing. In your heart you will not accept the plain direct words of Jesus on this subject. Neither will you accept the words of the Apostle Paul or the Father Himself. You simply reason scripture to fit in with what you wish to believe, and in the process you have to ignore the plainest of statements. So who really is using the human logic and understanding here? You or me?

It is late now and I am tired

Goodnight and God Bless

[phil36]

Why did the jews want to kill Jesus?

[phil36]

Originally Posted by livingbygrace

I shake my head here.

I give you the most plain of statenments and in your heart you do not believe them. But you will take statements that are not plain and grasp them and try and make them fit in with man made beliefs. Who is using the human logic and reasoning here?

Remember Jesus plainly stated the Father was the only true God and He says' I and the Father are One!!

And he also plainly stated that the Father was greater than the Son.

Paul clearly stated that everything had been put under Jesus feet, but this did not include God Himself.For he is also diety in one with God, I and the Father are one, and the great 'I am' sections in John

And Paul also plainly stated the Son would become subject to the Father, Yes He does the Fthaers wil, the Father sends the Son and the Father and Son send the Holy Spirit

You appear to say you believe this; but I don't see how you can with your beliefs.

So you are dismissing plain scripture and putting your own interpretation on the scripture you produce, whereas I simply accept Jesus and Paul's plain words . I am not puting my own interpritation into scripture you do not properly understand them, and this is why you found yourself being called a heretisc on other christiand sites

Who is using human reasoning and logic here? You

I will simply take one of your points. As you dismiss the plain and simple words of God the Father, Jesus, the Apostle Paul and the Disciple John it is pointless in trying to have a discussion with you. You cannot accept Jesus own words

I and the Father are one

That all of them may be one Father, just as you are in me and I am in you may they also be in us, so that the world may believve that you have sent me.
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one. John17:21&22

Firstly it is normally oneness people who have quoted this to me, and by your thinking you must believe Jesus is the Father even if you cannot see it. Now you are being really silly or you cant think of anything else to say. I have told on numerous occasions that Jesus is not the Father. you are actually twisting my words infact quite a few times I have told you this. Yet you still insist that I say Jesus is the Father. this is not true. but He is Lord, co diety with God and the Holy Spirit

So just as Jesus is in the Father and the Father in Jesus may we also be in the Father and the Son? This was also thrown out as heresy, we are the creation not creator we don not share the same substance as God Himself, we do not become God..actually cleante made a very could comment about this in another thread.

So how can that be Phil? How can you be in me and I be in you? Only in the Spirit. And that is how we are in the Father and the Son, I am not in you and you are not in me, however as the apostle Paul says we share the one Spirit who dwells in us... but we do not have His attributes.

That they may be one as we are one. We can only be one in the Spirit.

So if we can be one as the Father and Son are one does this prove Jesus is God Himself, we are as one body, by mutual indwelling of the Holy Spirit, as above we do not share the attributes of God for that would make us God, however God in the Holy Spirit indwells us (as like we are a temple), He tabernacles in us.?

I suppose with much human reasoning you may come to that conclusion if you really want to. MMmmm I don't come to that reasoning it is heresy, you are trying to say I do but a plain reading of what I have said will show otherwise.

None of the rest of your verses say that Jesus is God Himself. But the words of the Father were spoken through Jesus Thats because Jesus and the Father are one, both dietyJesus is God as is the Father



I will raise up for them a prophet like you from, among their brothers I will put my words in his mouth and he will tell them everything I command him Deut:18:18 and Jesus was the Ultimate prophet/King/Priest he effected that which was not before, no man could do it, it had to be something perfect, a perfect sacrifice.

Who is being spoken of here Phil? As the Father put His words in Jesus mouth do you not think Jesus would say. 'If you knew me you would know my Father also.?' Yes, I will say to you, if you knew Jesus you would know the Father, for both are one

The problem is you have been taught by men, and put that before the Bible. I'm sorry but I would disagree with you.. I actually wonder who taught you/ and don't be sanctimonious and say 'ohh I just taught myself' for to be honest I won't believe it. there is a reason why we have teachers. The bible clearly shows the triune God

I have to keep coming back to the same thing. In your heart you will not accept the plain direct words of Jesus on this subject. Neither will you accept the words of the Apostle Paul or the Father Himself. You simply reason scripture to fit in with what you wish to believe, and in the process you have to ignore the plainest of statements. So who really is using the human logic and understanding here? You or me? This is just word play for your none existing argument to be honest and this is why you have found yourself on other Christian boards as a person who follows heresy!

It is late now and I am tired

Goodnight and God Bless

Tired here myself, but another few hours to go yet before nightshift is over.

Blessings

Phil