correct my summary

[phil36]

Originally Posted by livingbygrace

VW

You are of course correct.So much of this is not about defending the Gospel but self righteousness and self promotion. No Christian being led by the Spirit could say that there is no true Christianity if we simply believe that Jesus is the Son of God. There are far too many scriptures attaining to Christ as the Son of God. It was what he claimed to be and told Peter when he said. You are the Christ. The Son of the Living Giod

God has blessed you Son of Jonah, this was not revealed to you by man but by my Father in Heaven.

The tone of many replies here shows what is the driving force behind them. I will follow your Christian example and also withdraw from this discussion

God Bless for the example yoiu show by the Holy Spirit within you

This is the whole problem, Jesus is the son of God, but He most definatly is God. I think even VW believes that.

Blessings

Phil

[AgeofKnowledge]

The doctrine of the Trinity is based on two basic biblical teachings:

(1) There is one and only one God.

The biblical, theological, and historical evidence for God's absolute oneness has been established in scripture and history. We shall now address the second biblical teaching...

(2) There are three distinct persons who are God: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

In addition to declaring God to be one in nature or essence, the scriptures affirm that there are three distinct persons who are God. All are called God, and all have the essential characteristics of a person. Personhood is traditionally understood as one who has intellect, feelings, and will.

All three of these characteristics are attributed to all three members of the Trinity in Scripture. Essentially, personhood refers to an "I," a "who," or a subject. Each "I" in the Trinity possesses (by virtue of its one common nature) the power to think, feel, and choose. Personhood itself is its I-ness or who-ness.

All members of the Trinity are equal in essence, but they do not have the same roles. In brief, the Father is the Planner, the Son is the Accomplisher, and the Holy Spirit is the Applier of salvation to believers.

What scripture plainly teaches is that God has one and only one essence (nature) and that it is not contradictory to have three persons in one essence.
All members of the Trinity are equal in essence, but they do not have the same roles. It is a heresy (called subordinationism) to affirm that there is an ontological subordination of one member of the Trinity to another, since they are identical in essence.

Nonetheless, it is clear that there is a finctional subordination; that is, not only does each member have a different function or role, but some functions are also subordinate to others.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit all share the same essence of God in an equal manner unsubordinate to each other; however, each member have different functions or roles with some functions being subordinate to others.

By His very title of "Father" and His label of "the first person of the Trinity," it is manifest that His function is superior to that of the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Father, for example, is presented as the Source, Sender, and Planner of salvation.

The Son, on the other hand, is the Means, Sent One, and Achiever of salvation. The Father sent, and the Son came to save us; the Father planned it, but the Son accomplished it on the cross. This is why it is a heresy (called patripassianism) to claim that the Father suffered on the cross only the son suffered and died. Further, the Son is eternally "begotten" or "generated" from the Father, but the Father is never said to be "begotten" or "generated from anyone.

According to orthodox Western theology, the Holy Spirit proceeds both from the Father and the Son (see John 15:26). Jesus said, "When the Counselor comes, whom I will sent to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, He will testify about me" (John 15:26).

Their functional roles are as follows: the Father is the Planner, the Son is the Accomplisher, and the Holy Spirit is the Applier of salvation to believers. However, they are all equal in essence as God.

Jesus, as God, in his role as God the son the accomplisher of our salvation makes intercession for us just as the Bible says that He does in Hebrews 5 as our perfect high priest (e.g. a functional role).

Except for a few cults asserting a false theology (e.g. heresy) and a false church history (note that the heretics were excommunicated), this has always been the position of authentic and historical Christianity.

Thank you for letting us share it with you

[ibewhoibe]

Originally Posted by phil36

VW, your analogy of the 4 gospels, different letters by different letters does not stand firm. Scripture in its entirity gives us the fulness of God.

What you have just basically said is that there are many beliefs just as there where many apostles/gopsels/ and epistles.. but what you don't seem to grasp is that some of these people do not worship Jesus as Lord.. infact, if you you do not accept the triune God, you are actually following a false God, or atleast one made up from Human minds..and not from the truth of Scripture which I know from times past you do not hold in high esteem.

Consumed you seem to follow a pattern that we just live and let live, wrong teaching doesnt matter, it'll all work out in the end.. This is dangerous thinking. heresy is heresy. no matter how it is dressed in the shop window!

Living by grace, none of your posts make any sense when tested against scripture... You have already stated that you have been called a heretic on other Christian websites and there seems to be a common denominator.. and that is your false beliefs.


Blessings

Phil

Greetings,

VW, Consumed, Living By Grace, I just want to say I read most all yall's post, and just want to stand next to ya'll when the Books get open, as I know our Father in Heaven Loves how Ya'll do work in his name, Ya'll see I've been like Phil here befor and it just dont work, there are others as well that haven't seen the light yet, My prayers go out to ya'll to pray for them, and remember our Call,

In Jesus we Pray Amen

[phil36]

Amen to that Ageofknowledge

Phil

[phil36]

Originally Posted by ibewhoibe

Greetings,

VW, Consumed, Living By Grace, I just want to say I read most all yall's post, and just want to stand next to ya'll when the Books get open, as I know our Father in Heaven Loves how Ya'll do work in his name, Ya'll see I've been like Phil here befor and it just dont work, there are others as well that haven't seen the light yet, My prayers go out to ya'll to pray for them, and remember our Call,

In Jesus we Pray Amen

Hi ibewhoibe,

I have also come across people like yourself who say they are in the light and others arent, which i take it to mean that you are saying I am not in the books when they open?

Shamefull, but as I say, I am not a man pleaser and if the truth that the church has always held offends you,that is not my fault but something you will have to pray over.

You say you have been like me? I very much doubt that, I be. I have seen posts like yours a hundred times, it is almost like youare giving yourself a balm for a wound. Its almost a cry for the sympathy vote.

I still hold to the truth of the Triune God. not who men say are in the light, just like you have done.isnt that God's Job?

Blessings

Phil

[ibewhoibe]

Originally Posted by phil36

Hi ibewhoibe,

I have also come across people like yourself who say they are in the light and others arent, which i take it to mean that you are saying I am not in the books when they open?

Shamefull, but as I say, I am not a man pleaser and if the truth that the church has always held offends you,that is not my fault but something you will have to pray over.

You say you have been like me? I very much doubt that, I be. I have seen posts like yours a hundred times, it is almost like youare giving yourself a balm for a wound. Its almost a cry for the sympathy vote.

I still hold to the truth of the Triune God. not who men say are in the light, just like you have done.isnt that God's Job?

Blessings

Phil

Its OK Phil, God Loves you Brother, I'm praying for Ya

" I Be "

[phil36]

I know He Loves me

Blessings

Phil

[ibewhoibe]

Originally Posted by phil36

I know He Loves me

Blessings

Phil

Phil, Our Father Loves us, but I wonder, do you think he is always Please with us, Just wondering what you though about that? I mean do you really see Jesus patting you on the Back, calling our Brother's out as your way of seeing scripter with better understanding than thier's, you see those attacks dont work, those Blockers will change views, this is a spiritaul war alright, but if I not mistaken Satan has the Bow on the white Horse, and the Darts you are slinging, are not of the two sided sword.

" I Be "

[phil36]

Originally Posted by ibewhoibe

Phil, Our Father Loves us, but I wonder, do you think he is always Please with us, Just wondering what you though about that? I mean do you really see Jesus patting you on the Back, calling our Brother's out as your way of seeing scripter with better understanding than thier's, you see those attacks dont work, those Blockers will change views, this is a spiritaul war alright, but if I not mistaken Satan has the Bow on the white Horse, and the Darts you are slinging, are not of the two sided sword.

" I Be "

I Be, I agree with you that, God Loves His children, He demonstrated that With the cross. I also agree that God at times is displeased with our behaviour.

Now to the important issue. Is God happy with people changing who He is? Is God Happy with Lies? You are tryin to make out here that I have maligned people for believing Truth. But this is far from the truth I be.

The fact of the matter is they have been espousing heresy as truth, and no Christian should stand or accept heresy it is as plain and simple as that! and this I be has been the same since the NT tiomes.. you will know this of course, you can read it in the NT.#

Now although you have written your post as nicely as you can, all you are basically saying is, that we should not say anything to upset each other just because we believe in heresy.

I will leave you with something from Paul.

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed."

Now you may say, but they say they belive in Jesus.. yes, but I am now asking you ' what Jesus are they believing for it is not the Jesus of the Bible, the second person of the Trinity... this is the heart of the matter.

I would assume God would rather the truth be told, Than Christians just sitting back being men pleaser.... I am not a man pleaser, for if I was I would just agree with as others hav.

Last note, as I said you have written your post very politly, but it is tinged with venom.

Blessings

Phil

[livingbygrace]

Originally Posted by AgeofKnowledge

The doctrine of the Trinity is based on two basic biblical teachings:

(1) There is one and only one God.

The biblical, theological, and historical evidence for God's absolute oneness has been established in scripture and history. We shall now address the second biblical teaching...

(2) There are three distinct persons who are God: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

In addition to declaring God to be one in nature or essence, the scriptures affirm that there are three distinct persons who are God. All are called God, and all have the essential characteristics of a person. Personhood is traditionally understood as one who has intellect, feelings, and will.

All three of these characteristics are attributed to all three members of the Trinity in Scripture. Essentially, personhood refers to an "I," a "who," or a subject. Each "I" in the Trinity possesses (by virtue of its one common nature) the power to think, feel, and choose. Personhood itself is its I-ness or who-ness.

All members of the Trinity are equal in essence, but they do not have the same roles. In brief, the Father is the Planner, the Son is the Accomplisher, and the Holy Spirit is the Applier of salvation to believers.

What scripture plainly teaches is that God has one and only one essence (nature) and that it is not contradictory to have three persons in one essence.
All members of the Trinity are equal in essence, but they do not have the same roles. It is a heresy (called subordinationism) to affirm that there is an ontological subordination of one member of the Trinity to another, since they are identical in essence.

Nonetheless, it is clear that there is a finctional subordination; that is, not only does each member have a different function or role, but some functions are also subordinate to others.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit all share the same essence of God in an equal manner unsubordinate to each other; however, each member have different functions or roles with some functions being subordinate to others.

By His very title of "Father" and His label of "the first person of the Trinity," it is manifest that His function is superior to that of the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Father, for example, is presented as the Source, Sender, and Planner of salvation.

The Son, on the other hand, is the Means, Sent One, and Achiever of salvation. The Father sent, and the Son came to save us; the Father planned it, but the Son accomplished it on the cross. This is why it is a heresy (called patripassianism) to claim that the Father suffered on the cross only the son suffered and died. Further, the Son is eternally "begotten" or "generated" from the Father, but the Father is never said to be "begotten" or "generated from anyone.

According to orthodox Western theology, the Holy Spirit proceeds both from the Father and the Son (see John 15:26). Jesus said, "When the Counselor comes, whom I will sent to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, He will testify about me" (John 15:26).

Their functional roles are as follows: the Father is the Planner, the Son is the Accomplisher, and the Holy Spirit is the Applier of salvation to believers. However, they are all equal in essence as God.

Jesus, as God, in his role as God the son the accomplisher of our salvation makes intercession for us just as the Bible says that He does in Hebrews 5 as our perfect high priest (e.g. a functional role).

Except for a few cults asserting a false theology (e.g. heresy) and a false church history (note that the heretics were excommunicated), this has always been the position of authentic and historical Christianity.

Thank you for letting us share it with you

AOK

Although I obviously do not see this subject quite as you do, you put your points well.

You say it is heretical to believe in an ontological subordination of one member of the Trinity to another. I take it you do believe that there is an economic subordination of Son to Father within the Trinity. I also assume you believe therefore that the Son is now and always has been subject to the Father in the economic sense of the Trinity. May I ask you? If the son now at this time is subject to the Father in the economic Trinity in what way is Paul meaning that the Son will become subject to the Father in the future when all dominion, authority and power has been defeated. Paul cannot be speaking of the economic Trinity as in this way Christ is and has always been in your belief subject to the Father.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all

[Consumed]

was just thinking, did Jesus call anyone directly a heretic, heresy,sect etc??. What a great example Jesus set for us to follow

[ibewhoibe]

Originally Posted by phil36

I Be, I agree with you that, God Loves His children, He demonstrated that With the cross. I also agree that God at times is displeased with our behaviour.

Now to the important issue. Is God happy with people changing who He is? Is God Happy with Lies? You are tryin to make out here that I have maligned people for believing Truth. But this is far from the truth I be.

The fact of the matter is they have been espousing heresy as truth, and no Christian should stand or accept heresy it is as plain and simple as that! and this I be has been the same since the NT tiomes.. you will know this of course, you can read it in the NT.#

Now although you have written your post as nicely as you can, all you are basically saying is, that we should not say anything to upset each other just because we believe in heresy.

I will leave you with something from Paul.

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed."

Now you may say, but they say they belive in Jesus.. yes, but I am now asking you ' what Jesus are they believing for it is not the Jesus of the Bible, the second person of the Trinity... this is the heart of the matter.

I would assume God would rather the truth be told, Than Christians just sitting back being men pleaser.... I am not a man pleaser, for if I was I would just agree with as others hav.

Last note, as I said you have written your post very politly, but it is tinged with venom.

Blessings

Phil

Ok Phil, But dont The word of God cuts both ways, Whats the truth, are you saying you have it, and they dont, I love reading this debates, on all these subjects, as Im learning more and more every Day!!
But I'm also learning that Scripture can confuss one,

Now I know you seen my thread on a conterfiet Gospel," Not trying to get off topic here but as a view"
you seen my brothers correct me, on the Law as we are not under the law, but they acepted the fruit, you see I'm seeing scripture tell me if you want to enter " Keep the Comandments" evrey one left me alone when I said the Fruits, But It dosent say if you want to enter keep the fruits does it,

My point is if anyone is going to change thier views acording to yours and how you see the scripture reading, dont sling a dart telling them there way is some cults and there not a true Christian. Yes I can learn from you as I have, But aint the Laws and the Fruits really the same.

In Prayers all the attacts will stop!

"I Be"

[livingbygrace]

Originally Posted by ibewhoibe

Ok Phil, But dont The word of God cuts both ways, Whats the truth, are you saying you have it, and they dont, I love reading this debates, on all these subjects, as Im learning more and more every Day!!
But I'm also learning that Scripture can confuss one,

Now I know you seen my thread on a conterfiet Gospel," Not trying to get off topic here but as a view"
you seen my brothers correct me, on the Law as we are not under the law, but they acepted the fruit, you see I'm seeing scripture tell me if you want to enter " Keep the Comandments" evrey one left me alone when I said the Fruits, But It dosent say if you want to enter keep the fruits does it,

My point is if anyone is going to change thier views acording to yours and how you see the scripture reading, dont sling a dart telling them there way is some cults and there not a true Christian. Yes I can learn from you as I have, But aint the Laws and the Fruits really the same.

In Prayers all the attacts will stop!

"I Be"

I read a comment once on this site. It said that no-one will listen to someone if they are not speaking in love. On another Christian website I frequently use, one person is seen by others as malicious self promoting, nasty, and vindictive. But he says he is speaking in love.
He is not there to be popular
But as he is not perceived as speaking in love he is simply making a noise.

If he had the truth he claimed to have and was being led by the Holy Spirit surely he would realise that it was most important for him to speak in true love to people so they might listen to the truth he would have. He may believe he is, but that means nothing if his listeners (practically all of them) disagree.

[mpaper345]

The Bible says there is one God and Father of all,it attributes the Father as the only God,no God beside God,no God formed before God and no God formed after God,if you believe there is one God you do well.God the Father specifically said that He is the only God,but they say nay,rather there is 3 persons in one God.

The Bible states that Jesus is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost.The Father in the Old Testament said He would reveal His new name to them and speak to them.The Son inherited the name Jesus from the Father.The Holy Ghost comes in the name of Jesus.Jesus is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,but they nay,rather Jesus is the name of the Son and Jehovah is the name of the Father.

The Bible states that there is only one throne in heaven and one who sits on that throne which is the throne of both God and the Lamb,God in the glorified body of His Son,the man Christ Jesus.The Bible states that God exalted the man Christ Jesus to exercise the throne of power which is represented by Jesus being at the right hand of God.Jesus is the God we will see in heaven,but they say nay,rather Jesus is sitting on a throne next to the Father on a throne.

Jesus is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost.The book of Luke says baptism in Jesus' name.Jews,Samaritans,and Gentiles were all baptized in the name of Jesus.The Bible says all we do in word and deed do all in the name of Jesus.There is no other name whereby we are saved but the name Jesus.baptism is in Jesus' name,but they nay,rather baptism is in the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost.

The term Son means to be begotten and come after the Father or else Son has no meaning.The Son,the man Christ Jesus,was begotten and came after the Father.The Son has to have a beginning because of the term Son,but they nay,rather the Son has no beginning.

9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye(Mark 7:9-13).

The belief in one God,the Lord Jesus Christ,baptism in Jesus' name,was at the first,but later they changed it to fit their pagan and Christianity combination and made a trinity out of the one true God,the Lord Jesus Christ.

I do not understand how people cannot believe that there is one God who is a Holy Spirit.Father is a title for God the Holy Spirit.The Son is God the Father in visible activity.The Holy Spirit is God the Father in invisible activity.

God the Father in the Old Testament said to the Jews that He would reveal His new name to them and speak to them,which He did when He manifest all His attributes to the Son,the man Christ Jesus,and revealed His new name to them Jesus,and talked to the Jews by His Son the man Christ Jesus.

Even Muslims believe that there is one God.The Jews in the Old Testament only had the concept that there is only one God the Father.God the Father allowed them to believe that He is the only God.They never believed there was a trinity but one God the Father.If there was a trinity then God the Father would be lying(which He is not) by allowing them to believe that He created all things when the Bible says Jesus created all things.He received all the worship when if there was a trinity they would have to receive worship,but God the Father said worship only Him and the Jews only worshipped God the Father in which the Father allowed them to worship only Him.

God is a Holy Spirit who is our Father.The Son is the man Christ Jesus,God the Father's personal human body.

Matt

[phil36]

Originally Posted by livingbygrace

I read a comment once on this site. It said that no-one will listen to someone if they are not speaking in love. On another Christian website I frequently use, one person is seen by others as malicious self promoting, nasty, and vindictive. But he says he is speaking in love.
He is not there to be popular
But as he is not perceived as speaking in love he is simply making a noise.

If he had the truth he claimed to have and was being led by the Holy Spirit surely he would realise that it was most important for him to speak in true love to people so they might listen to the truth he would have. He may believe he is, but that means nothing if his listeners (practically all of them) disagree.

OOohh that was true venom... LBG (mind you written very nicely), I Know that was aimed directly at me.

Here is the simple fact. I am not the only one who clings to the truth with His dear life.. My friend what you belive has been heresy from the start.

I do not in least worry if ''Practically all of them (on this board) don't agree''!! the matter of the fact is From the start what you believe about God has been declared as heresy. If you cannot handle that then there is nothing I can do but point you in the right direction.. God is Triune!

You may view me as malicious, I dont think I have been, but because I disagree with heresy and those that follow it , you know accuse me of all sorts. In a way I am glad.. the truth doesnt always get a good reception LBG, does it?

I have been speaking to you on the heresy you follow.. you see your problem aswell as some others on here, is that, if someone does not agree with you and can show you the truth, they then do not have love. But as I say I am not here to please your ears or anyone eles. I will say that again, I am not here to please your ears or anyone elses but to the tell the truth to the best of my ability. not to stand idly by as you and others spread your heresy and as you have told us not just on this board you have been slammed for heresy on other boards.

My deepest prayer, is for you to find the truth, the truth that is the very foundation of Christianity itself, of the Triune God. anything else has been declared heresy right fromt he start.


Oh and again, as I say I am not a people pleaser, I am not going to come on here and degrade the truth of Scripture just to get people to agree with me.

Blessings

Phil

[livingbygrace]

Originally Posted by phil36

OOohh that was true venom... LBG (mind you written very nicely), I Know that was aimed directly at me.

Here is the simple fact. I am not the only one who clings to the truth with His dear life.. My friend what you belive has been heresy from the start.

I do not in least worry if ''Practically all of them (on this board) don't agree''!! the matter of the fact is From the start what you believe about God has been declared as heresy. If you cannot handle that then there is nothing I can do but point you in the right direction.. God is Triune!

You may view me as malicious, I dont think I have been, but because I disagree with heresy and those that follow it , you know accuse me of all sorts. In a way I am glad.. the truth doesnt always get a good reception LBG, does it?

I have been speaking to you on the heresy you follow.. you see your problem aswell as some others on here, is that, if someone does not agree with you and can show you the truth, they then do not have love. But as I say I am not here to please your ears or anyone eles. I will say that again, I am not here to please your ears or anyone elses but to the tell the truth to the best of my ability. not to stand idly by as you and others spread your heresy and as you have told us not just on this board you have been slammed for heresy on other boards.

My deepest prayer, is for you to find the truth, the truth that is the very foundation of Christianity itself, of the Triune God. anything else has been declared heresy right fromt he start.


Oh and again, as I say I am not a people pleaser, I am not going to come on here and degrade the truth of Scripture just to get people to agree with me.

Blessings

Phil

Phil

I have spoken truthfully concerning an individual on another website. And I will speak truthfully again. You have not shown me you have the truth. Out ofv all the people I have disacussed this subject with and there have been a lot believe me, the arguments you have put forward and thye rebuttals of my comments have been the least persuassive of all.

[phil36]

Originally Posted by mpaper345

The Bible says there is one God and Father of all,it attributes the Father as the only God,no God beside God,no God formed before God and no God formed after God,if you believe there is one God you do well.God the Father specifically said that He is the only God,but they say nay,rather there is 3 persons in one God.

The Bible states that Jesus is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost.The Father in the Old Testament said He would reveal His new name to them and speak to them.The Son inherited the name Jesus from the Father.The Holy Ghost comes in the name of Jesus.Jesus is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,but they nay,rather Jesus is the name of the Son and Jehovah is the name of the Father.

The Bible states that there is only one throne in heaven and one who sits on that throne which is the throne of both God and the Lamb,God in the glorified body of His Son,the man Christ Jesus.The Bible states that God exalted the man Christ Jesus to exercise the throne of power which is represented by Jesus being at the right hand of God.Jesus is the God we will see in heaven,but they say nay,rather Jesus is sitting on a throne next to the Father on a throne.

Jesus is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost.The book of Luke says baptism in Jesus' name.Jews,Samaritans,and Gentiles were all baptized in the name of Jesus.The Bible says all we do in word and deed do all in the name of Jesus.There is no other name whereby we are saved but the name Jesus.baptism is in Jesus' name,but they nay,rather baptism is in the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost.

The term Son means to be begotten and come after the Father or else Son has no meaning.The Son,the man Christ Jesus,was begotten and came after the Father.The Son has to have a beginning because of the term Son,but they nay,rather the Son has no beginning.

9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye(Mark 7:9-13).

The belief in one God,the Lord Jesus Christ,baptism in Jesus' name,was at the first,but later they changed it to fit their pagan and Christianity combination and made a trinity out of the one true God,the Lord Jesus Christ.

I do not understand how people cannot believe that there is one God who is a Holy Spirit.Father is a title for God the Holy Spirit.The Son is God the Father in visible activity.The Holy Spirit is God the Father in invisible activity.

God the Father in the Old Testament said to the Jews that He would reveal His new name to them and speak to them,which He did when He manifest all His attributes to the Son,the man Christ Jesus,and revealed His new name to them Jesus,and talked to the Jews by His Son the man Christ Jesus.

Even Muslims believe that there is one God.The Jews in the Old Testament only had the concept that there is only one God the Father.God the Father allowed them to believe that He is the only God.They never believed there was a trinity but one God the Father.If there was a trinity then God the Father would be lying(which He is not) by allowing them to believe that He created all things when the Bible says Jesus created all things.He received all the worship when if there was a trinity they would have to receive worship,but God the Father said worship only Him and the Jews only worshipped God the Father in which the Father allowed them to worship only Him.

God is a Holy Spirit who is our Father.The Son is the man Christ Jesus,God the Father's personal human body.

Matt

Matt that is pure heresy

[AgeofKnowledge]

Originally Posted by Consumed

was just thinking, did Jesus call anyone directly a heretic, heresy,sect etc??. What a great example Jesus set for us to follow

I believe God loves everyone Consumed and wants all people to repent and come to the knowledge of the truth so they can worship Him in spirit and truth.

Jesus said: Matt 15:14 "They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."

Then Jesus said, Matt 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in."

Then Jesus said: Matt 23:31-33 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?"

Jesus was obviously against heresy and he was very serious about how he addressed it. He loved sinners and saints alike but he spoke and taught against heresy. Jesus is our example. Jesus loved people yet spoke strongly and often against heresy.

Don't set yourself up against Jesus Christ's example Consumed that we love everyone yet speak truth and denounce heresy from love of God and humankind.

I love you, I love the young believer these guys are trying to pull into their doctrinal error, I love the one caught in the web of doctrinal error and trying to pull people into it (though not what they are doing), and I certainly do love God.

I love everyone enough to share God's Word in truth and correct the heresy (as Jesus my example did). I don't follow you Consumed nor care to enable pluralism and obvious doctrinal error so I can be loved by all.

Jesus is my example: not you.

Check your own eye brother.

[AgeofKnowledge]

That's because they are found in the Bible. My position is exactly the historical authentic position the Apostles held as taught in scripture. I'm not part of a sect or a cult.

Originally Posted by livingbygrace

AOK

Although I obviously do not see this subject quite as you do, you put your points well.

You say it is heretical to believe in an ontological subordination of one member of the Trinity to another. I take it you do believe that there is an economic subordination of Son to Father within the Trinity. I also assume you believe therefore that the Son is now and always has been subject to the Father in the economic sense of the Trinity. May I ask you? If the son now at this time is subject to the Father in the economic Trinity in what way is Paul meaning that the Son will become subject to the Father in the future when all dominion, authority and power has been defeated. Paul cannot be speaking of the economic Trinity as in this way Christ is and has always been in your belief subject to the Father.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all

[livingbygrace]

Originally Posted by AgeofKnowledge

I believe God loves everyone Consumed and wants all people to repent and come to the knowledge of the truth so they can worship Him in spirit and truth.

Jesus said: Matt 15:14 "They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."

Then Jesus said, Matt 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in."

Then Jesus said: Matt 23:31-33 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?"

Jesus was obviously against heresy and he was very serious about how he addressed it. He loved sinners and saints alike but he spoke and taught against heresy. Jesus is our example. Jesus loved people yet spoke strongly and often against heresy.

Don't set yourself up against Jesus Christ's example Consumed that we love everyone yet speak truth and denounce heresy from love of God and humankind.

I love you, I love the young believer these guys are trying to pull into their doctrinal error, I love the one caught in the web of doctrinal error and trying to pull people into it (though not what they are doing), and I certainly do love God.

I love everyone enough to share God's Word in truth and correct the heresy (as Jesus my example did). I don't follow you Consumed nor care to enable pluralism and obvious doctrinal error so I can be loved by all.

Jesus is my example: not you.

Check your own eye brother.

Who were these people who Christ reserved his strongest criticismss of?

Religious people who displayed pride and arrogance and very often condemned others