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They have been reduced to simply repeating their inaccurate false assertions and looping through logically flawed scripts designed to produce a wrong answer after their position was materially and thoroughly refuted.
Personally, I enjoyed every minute of it. I love unmasking heresy, cult doctrines, false religious systems, etc... These people are deceived and God loves them so much.
I think God is glad we have striven with them. I think He would smile if we continue to strive with them refuting their heresy indefinitely because He loves them that much but I also believe He truly loves us and is pleased when we handle His Word in truth such as we have.
We can ask God to reveal their gross error to them in other ways in His patience and love and, if necessary (and it looks to me like it will be), His discipline to correct them. Let's ask God to come and be a part of this process for their benefit and to bring peace.
Lord, I know you love them so much and I humbly pray that you will reveal the truth of Triune oneness to them in other ways besides just this forum. Whether quickly or slowly Lord, we commit them into your hand for their own good. Of course Dear Lord we are at your disposal to assist. Thank you God. I know that you are now a part of this process. In Jesus name I pray Father God, Amen.
Personally, I enjoyed every minute of it. I love unmasking heresy, cult doctrines, false religious systems, etc... These people are deceived and God loves them so much.
I think God is glad we have striven with them. I think He would smile if we continue to strive with them refuting their heresy indefinitely because He loves them that much but I also believe He truly loves us and is pleased when we handle His Word in truth such as we have.
We can ask God to reveal their gross error to them in other ways in His patience and love and, if necessary (and it looks to me like it will be), His discipline to correct them. Let's ask God to come and be a part of this process for their benefit and to bring peace.
Lord, I know you love them so much and I humbly pray that you will reveal the truth of Triune oneness to them in other ways besides just this forum. Whether quickly or slowly Lord, we commit them into your hand for their own good. Of course Dear Lord we are at your disposal to assist. Thank you God. I know that you are now a part of this process. In Jesus name I pray Father God, Amen.
Nothing like showing love and being patient with those you disagree with in order to lead them to Christ, as you view him. Or don't you know that it was the kindness of God that led to your own repentence (and patience, and love, and so forth). A different interpretation of scripture shouldn't make someone your enemy. After all, at least they are getting their views from scripture and trying to understand it rightly.
R
All
All you've done is deepen my convictions. We are all an impasse. You Trinity folks are convinced you are totally correct and we Oneness folks are totally convinced we are as well.
I tried to explain unless God Almighty himself reveals this to someone through his Spirit, you will never understand it, no matter how you try. This is not like studying in school where you study and study, then pass the test etc.
The first requirement to learn this is having an open mind, and having a teachable Spirit. God will not deal with a Proud Person, he hates arrogance and Pride.(Proverbs 6). So approaching God requires Humility.
Next, your Bible or my Bible is not all Literal in meaning. The Bible is Literal, types and Shadows, Allegorical, Hidden or double in meaning, etc. For example; on my Water Baptism thread. I simply explained when Jesus spoke in Matthew 28 v 19; What he was actually telling his Apostles. Trinity Beleivers simply take that verse literally, I explained that what he actually refers to HIS NAME, and instead of going to check to see if what I stated was correct, by seeing the evidence about how people were actually baptized, to prove the point, we get into a heated discussion, much of it relegated to personal attacks on Oneness, UPC church, that we are heretics, brain dead, etc.
This is precisely why God will never let a person see this with this type of attitude.
Luke 24 v 45 " Then opened HE their UNDERSTANDING, that they might understand the scriptures".
I Corinthians 1 v 19 "For it is written, I will destroy the Wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
Mark 4 v 11-12 "And he said unto them (Apostles), Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of The Kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables. That seeing they may see, AND NOT PERCEIVE; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins be forgiven them".
I'll let the Lord judge who actually has been converted etc. I' m not going down that road. That is between that person and God, I judge noone on this.
The point Ladies and Gentlemen is that as just proven, God Alone, is the giver of Wisdom And Understanding. Only he decides who gets this knowledge or that knowledge for his own purposes. What we all need to do, is understand this, and stop trying to play Judge on what someone is teaching, just because you personally don't understand it, or your particular Church does not beleive it. Get all the facts, read, cross-check what is being taught, before everyone piles on, and attacks begin. God is not pleased with this attitude.
If someone is teaching falsehood on this blog site, there are enough intelligent people here to figure out, if the scriptures presented are taken out of context, or that what is being taught totally against scriptures. Judge on scripture, not a Church or Religious standpoint of opinions, is all I ask for us to do. Scripture for scripture.
Personally, I read very few articles, or books on spiritually speaking subjects. Most of them are based on what this person or that person said, or declared. By getting involved in this, you set yourself up to be deceived, because you accept someone's person, rather then study fervently what God's Word says First and Last. Read what Brother Job says on accepting someone's person;
Job 13 v 7-10 "Will you speak wickedly for God? And talk deceitfully for him? Will you accept his person? Will you contend for God.? Is it good that he should search you out? Or as one man mock another. Do you so mock him? He will surely REPROVE you, if you do secretly accept persons." Amen
The Devil wants all of us to take the word of this man or that man even those who have much credibility in Religious affairs. Don't do it. Study God's word as Jesus commanded in John 5 v 39. When someone tries to show me something in The Bible no matter who it is, I read up on what they say before I put a mental "OK" on it.
I know everyone here loves the Lord, and that is Truly a Blessing. Let us however refrain from judgement on others until all the facts are presented in The forum, and each of us from scripture can show any errors in what the person is presenting. God Bless everyone...
All you've done is deepen my convictions. We are all an impasse. You Trinity folks are convinced you are totally correct and we Oneness folks are totally convinced we are as well.
I tried to explain unless God Almighty himself reveals this to someone through his Spirit, you will never understand it, no matter how you try. This is not like studying in school where you study and study, then pass the test etc.
The first requirement to learn this is having an open mind, and having a teachable Spirit. God will not deal with a Proud Person, he hates arrogance and Pride.(Proverbs 6). So approaching God requires Humility.
Next, your Bible or my Bible is not all Literal in meaning. The Bible is Literal, types and Shadows, Allegorical, Hidden or double in meaning, etc. For example; on my Water Baptism thread. I simply explained when Jesus spoke in Matthew 28 v 19; What he was actually telling his Apostles. Trinity Beleivers simply take that verse literally, I explained that what he actually refers to HIS NAME, and instead of going to check to see if what I stated was correct, by seeing the evidence about how people were actually baptized, to prove the point, we get into a heated discussion, much of it relegated to personal attacks on Oneness, UPC church, that we are heretics, brain dead, etc.
This is precisely why God will never let a person see this with this type of attitude.
Luke 24 v 45 " Then opened HE their UNDERSTANDING, that they might understand the scriptures".
I Corinthians 1 v 19 "For it is written, I will destroy the Wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
Mark 4 v 11-12 "And he said unto them (Apostles), Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of The Kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables. That seeing they may see, AND NOT PERCEIVE; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins be forgiven them".
I'll let the Lord judge who actually has been converted etc. I' m not going down that road. That is between that person and God, I judge noone on this.
The point Ladies and Gentlemen is that as just proven, God Alone, is the giver of Wisdom And Understanding. Only he decides who gets this knowledge or that knowledge for his own purposes. What we all need to do, is understand this, and stop trying to play Judge on what someone is teaching, just because you personally don't understand it, or your particular Church does not beleive it. Get all the facts, read, cross-check what is being taught, before everyone piles on, and attacks begin. God is not pleased with this attitude.
If someone is teaching falsehood on this blog site, there are enough intelligent people here to figure out, if the scriptures presented are taken out of context, or that what is being taught totally against scriptures. Judge on scripture, not a Church or Religious standpoint of opinions, is all I ask for us to do. Scripture for scripture.
Personally, I read very few articles, or books on spiritually speaking subjects. Most of them are based on what this person or that person said, or declared. By getting involved in this, you set yourself up to be deceived, because you accept someone's person, rather then study fervently what God's Word says First and Last. Read what Brother Job says on accepting someone's person;
Job 13 v 7-10 "Will you speak wickedly for God? And talk deceitfully for him? Will you accept his person? Will you contend for God.? Is it good that he should search you out? Or as one man mock another. Do you so mock him? He will surely REPROVE you, if you do secretly accept persons." Amen
The Devil wants all of us to take the word of this man or that man even those who have much credibility in Religious affairs. Don't do it. Study God's word as Jesus commanded in John 5 v 39. When someone tries to show me something in The Bible no matter who it is, I read up on what they say before I put a mental "OK" on it.
I know everyone here loves the Lord, and that is Truly a Blessing. Let us however refrain from judgement on others until all the facts are presented in The forum, and each of us from scripture can show any errors in what the person is presenting. God Bless everyone...
Hi David,
I have to agree to this, but I was gaining a deeper understanding of what I have been lead to believe, by examining what I do believe against scripture, (something I am regularly accused of not doing. LOL) I was and am gaining insight into this complex understanding, not that it is complex to God, but to us, well, we are so limited in our understanding. But we have the mind of Christ, and the Spirit can and will lead us into all truth. But I agree that to some it would be an occasion for doubt or even disbelief to creep in, and so it should be dropped.
Thanks,
vic
I have to agree to this, but I was gaining a deeper understanding of what I have been lead to believe, by examining what I do believe against scripture, (something I am regularly accused of not doing. LOL) I was and am gaining insight into this complex understanding, not that it is complex to God, but to us, well, we are so limited in our understanding. But we have the mind of Christ, and the Spirit can and will lead us into all truth. But I agree that to some it would be an occasion for doubt or even disbelief to creep in, and so it should be dropped.
Thanks,
vic
C
My reasoning in this is simple: For those of us who hold strongly one view or enough there is no movement in the debate, we are going back and forth and this is, on occasion, leading to strong statements being made against each other. It is becoming more difficult to speak the truth in love and the learning curve seems to be tapped out. For those who want to continue the debate, so be it, but I think that it is unlikely to bear much more fruit, thus my expression of having scrapped the soil off the debate.
In His Service
David King
In His Service
David King
A
I believe you're strategy of asking a couple logically flawed questions designed to elicit a wrong answer to somehow prove your position is not humbly seeking God's truth. Then when that was logically refuted and scriptural truth presented you simply retreated into denial and repeated the false assertion of Oneness. And now you assert your convictions have been deepened. It's absurd.
I tried to explain that God has revealed Himself in scripture but you chose not to understand it because you weren't even really reading the information being communicated. You certainly never responded to any of it. Since this is exactly like school where you study what God has to say in His Word and then apply what you learn in real life you flunk the course friend.
Not only can we take the Bible literally, but we must take the Bible literally. When we read any piece of literature, but especially the Bible, we must determine what the author intended to communicate. Many today will read a verse or passage of Scripture myopically without regard to all of scripture and then give their own definitions to the words, phrases, or paragraphs, ignoring the context and author’s intent. This is exactly how Oneness got started. But this is not what God intended, which is why God tells us to correctly handle the Word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).
Ancient and modern history are full of those who gave false meanings to God's Word. David Koresh, Jim Jones, Joseph Smith, Ellen G. White, and every other heretic since Jesus ascended would agree with you that you can just read scripture and come to whatever conclusions you think regarding it as long as you sense it's true. That's what they did. That's what the early modalists did and that's what the founder of modern Oneness did as well.
Although we do take the Bible literally and look at each scripture in context with ALL of scripture, there are still figures of speech within its pages. An example of a figure of speech would be that if someone said "it is raining cats and dogs outside," you would know that they did not really mean that cats and dogs were falling from the sky. They would mean it is raining really hard. There are figures of speech in the Bible which are not to be taken literally, but those are obvious. (See Psalm 17:8 for example). This; however, is no license to start changing what it says into something it doesn't through revelations like Oneness has done.
David Koresh, Jim Jones, Joseph Smith, Ellen G. White, and every other heretic since Jesus ascended would agree with you that you can just read scripture an open mind and a teachable spirit to come to their heretical consclusions... exactly as you have done with Oneness.
Calling loving born again Christians in scriptural truth proud because they see right through the heresy of Oneness does not reflect well on you. You claim to be humble but I've seen no sign of it in our discussions. You might want to take your own advice and try approaching God's Word with some humility instead of proudly looping stupid logicially flawed inaccurate scripts and be so humble as to actually read what we wrote and address at least some parts of it.
You ignored it all and looped a flawed pre-prepared script. Where's the humility in that because I don't see any. But I do see you coming to whatever conclusions you think regarding scripture no matter what it really teaches. That's what the cults do. Humble your mind, open the Word, and prepare to receive our heresy instead of sound doctrine is how they work. They teach gross error and will not accept correction. That's what the early modalists did, the founder of modern Oneness, and those who stiff neck proudly follow the heresy do as well..
when we make ourselves the final arbiters of which parts of the Bible are to be interpreted literally, we elevate ourselves above God. Who is to say, then, that one person’s interpretation of a biblical event or truth is any more or less valid than another’s? The confusion and distortions that have inevitably resulted from those who do such things are evident in their heresy and their excommunication from historical Chrisitanity as a result. They essentially render the Scriptures null and void to the degree of their heresy. The Bible is God’s Word to us and He meant it to be believed and practiced as He communicated it.
I tried to explain that God has revealed Himself in scripture but you chose not to understand it because you weren't even really reading the information being communicated. You certainly never responded to any of it. Since this is exactly like school where you study what God has to say in His Word and then apply what you learn in real life you flunk the course friend.
Not only can we take the Bible literally, but we must take the Bible literally. When we read any piece of literature, but especially the Bible, we must determine what the author intended to communicate. Many today will read a verse or passage of Scripture myopically without regard to all of scripture and then give their own definitions to the words, phrases, or paragraphs, ignoring the context and author’s intent. This is exactly how Oneness got started. But this is not what God intended, which is why God tells us to correctly handle the Word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).
Ancient and modern history are full of those who gave false meanings to God's Word. David Koresh, Jim Jones, Joseph Smith, Ellen G. White, and every other heretic since Jesus ascended would agree with you that you can just read scripture and come to whatever conclusions you think regarding it as long as you sense it's true. That's what they did. That's what the early modalists did and that's what the founder of modern Oneness did as well.
Although we do take the Bible literally and look at each scripture in context with ALL of scripture, there are still figures of speech within its pages. An example of a figure of speech would be that if someone said "it is raining cats and dogs outside," you would know that they did not really mean that cats and dogs were falling from the sky. They would mean it is raining really hard. There are figures of speech in the Bible which are not to be taken literally, but those are obvious. (See Psalm 17:8 for example). This; however, is no license to start changing what it says into something it doesn't through revelations like Oneness has done.
David Koresh, Jim Jones, Joseph Smith, Ellen G. White, and every other heretic since Jesus ascended would agree with you that you can just read scripture an open mind and a teachable spirit to come to their heretical consclusions... exactly as you have done with Oneness.
Calling loving born again Christians in scriptural truth proud because they see right through the heresy of Oneness does not reflect well on you. You claim to be humble but I've seen no sign of it in our discussions. You might want to take your own advice and try approaching God's Word with some humility instead of proudly looping stupid logicially flawed inaccurate scripts and be so humble as to actually read what we wrote and address at least some parts of it.
You ignored it all and looped a flawed pre-prepared script. Where's the humility in that because I don't see any. But I do see you coming to whatever conclusions you think regarding scripture no matter what it really teaches. That's what the cults do. Humble your mind, open the Word, and prepare to receive our heresy instead of sound doctrine is how they work. They teach gross error and will not accept correction. That's what the early modalists did, the founder of modern Oneness, and those who stiff neck proudly follow the heresy do as well..
when we make ourselves the final arbiters of which parts of the Bible are to be interpreted literally, we elevate ourselves above God. Who is to say, then, that one person’s interpretation of a biblical event or truth is any more or less valid than another’s? The confusion and distortions that have inevitably resulted from those who do such things are evident in their heresy and their excommunication from historical Chrisitanity as a result. They essentially render the Scriptures null and void to the degree of their heresy. The Bible is God’s Word to us and He meant it to be believed and practiced as He communicated it.
1
There is no rule that says you HAVE TO keep replying to and debating people who clearly aren't going to see things your way. This is an online message board where you can simply just walk away and not engage with people whom seem to get you worked up.
If you find yourself getting worked all in to a twist because someone isn't seeing things your way, just walk away. The world won't tip off its axis and spiral off in to a black hole if some person on the other end of the Internet with a keyboard and opinion doesn't view things just like you do.
If you find yourself getting worked all in to a twist because someone isn't seeing things your way, just walk away. The world won't tip off its axis and spiral off in to a black hole if some person on the other end of the Internet with a keyboard and opinion doesn't view things just like you do.
John 5:30-47 I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. If I alone bear witness of Myself, My testimony is not true. There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the testimony which He bears of Me is true. You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. But the witness which I receive is not from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. He was the lamp that was burning and was shining and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. But the witness which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish, the very works that I do, bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. And the Father who sent Me, He has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. And you do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent. You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life. I do not receive glory from men; but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another, and do not seek the glory that is from the only God? Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me. but if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?
This passage is not a call or command to study scripture, but a rebuke to those who studied scripture thinking that in them they could find eternal life. And indeed, it turns into a strong rebuke for these men learned of the scripture. You sort of took this verse out of context.
This passage is not a call or command to study scripture, but a rebuke to those who studied scripture thinking that in them they could find eternal life. And indeed, it turns into a strong rebuke for these men learned of the scripture. You sort of took this verse out of context.