Neon Jesus and the New Church? Crisis in the church.

[thefightinglamb]

So, I go to a pentecostal church that was 'born' like 40 years? ago I believe, or there abouts...

And lately, it has bothered me how Christian churches seem to pop up out of nowhere? and seek new members? and sometimes they get new members, sometimes they steal the appetites of the young with 'worldliness' in the church (such as flashy stages with strobing lights and everything else you can imagine)...

I have to question in America right now, is it true that we need new churches? Where have our ancestors worshipped? And why is this 'not good enough'?

I honestly believe that there have been faithfull Christians in America since its founding. I find it hard to believe that either I am the only sincere Christian or that some other Joe Smoe has found a "New Jesus" to preach that the holy people of old did not already worship, anywhere near me or you--or that the Holy Spirit has let every church of the past be led astray.

My heart has to question rather or not Jesus would like "new churches" everywhere. To be honest the new churches around me seem to be either 'pop' baptist/nondenominational or 'pop' pentecostal/nondenominational who seem to just appeal to people's appetites--meaning the music they want to hear, or people their age, et cetera. Reminds me of Revelations where it says people will look for preachers who preach what their itching ears want to hear.

I think the tension between these churches (which are opening more and more each day)and 'the churches of old' (that are closing at an alarming rate, how do you get a place that has been worshipped at for 100s of years?--perhaps it will take us 100s of year to find out what we are now losing, if our modern churches can stick around that long--which I doubt) may quite possibly lead to a crisis in the church.

What happens when these 'new churches with their neon Jesus' burn out? When they discover that they really have NO ancestors in the past that support the way they live?

As I said before there is a wisdom that only old holy men and old holy women can give to the young, a timeless eternal wisdom that is being lost. A widom that teaches us daily how to live and how to grow old in Christ.

You may say, "But we do not WANT to worship in the way they did in the past!" I hear you, and I hear the folly of youth trying to lead itself. I remember a story where the Lord thrawted the plans of a king who listened to his friends instead of listening to the counsel of the elders who were around him--and he was devastated. I remember how they warned him to lighten the load on their backs, and instead he said his pinky was heavier than his father's hand at the advice of his friends. The people rebelled and the kingdom said, what lot do we have in house of David? I think it was the son of Soloman actually...

I greatly fear that these pop churches are not anything more than self-destructive mechanisms. They largely depend on their charismatic preacher and when said preacher leaves, the church either dries out and dies or dwindles to a very humble number of people faithful to a church that is only perhaps deacades old (I usually see them fizzle out way before the decades mark).

What pop church has ever preached the hard sayings of Jesus? And can you be saved by preaching a neon Jesus?

I find myself continually asking these questions again and again to no avail. I go to the churches and hear some truth in their sermons, but nothing difficult--nothing that demands you 'deny yourself every day.' And if they were honest, they would tell you that they could not draw in the world if they preached that is it not enough that they draw people in their nets and get them to confess Jesus is Lord=saved?!?!

I don't know its baffling to me...do ends justify means in Christianity?!? I honestly don't know anymore? Is it wrong to use worldliness to hook worldly people into the church--then teaching them who Jesus really is??? But I do not even know if they teach who Jesus really is...

And another frightening thought that I know is true, every single church that is out there on its own is like a skiff in the ocean. Not only are they by themselves for storms and doctrines, but also for declaring who is truly a Christian. What I mean is I have no idea who you are reader, but I would wager that 90% of these new churches would say you are not with them (or not a Christian, you need to be rebaptized, redoctrinated, et cetera.). I am wagering this especially if you are in one of these new churches, I have seen just about everything from pastrami to bologna in all the other new churches (of course besides yours, I would laugh at this statement if it did not make me so confused and sad), if you know what I mean...

I honestly think when these new churches collapse as they are forcing the older churches to callapse, it is going to be devastating to the church, when they look for where they were saved or look for that godly austerity that is gone.

Perhaps these new churches will also last 100s of years (I am talking about AMerican churches as they can be no longer than when Columbus and the settlers brought the good news), but even if they do I see the superficial and shallow Christian replacing the Christian that once stood in waters that were 100s of years old.

Is there a New Jesus that needs to be preached in areas that have had churches worshipping the Lord since the gospel first came there? And if not a New Jesus, then why not preach and encourage people to follow the true Jesus in the old churches where our grandparaents got married, where they clung their hands together in prayer for you?

This rant may be sparked by somebody suggesting that I go to a quaker church...which I am greatly considering going to tomorrow. I have been to a modern quaker church that looks a lot like other churches, but I want to go to one of the past quaker churches--where people sit and wait and listen for the Lord to stir them.

I also have pain in seeing the Lutheran church of my high school days dying out, and if 30+ years is not enough to keep a church going...I know that most of these new churches that don't even have a backbone structure (meaning either tested doctrine or bishops and leaders over multiple churches to keep the churches in line) have little chance of crossing the oceans and storms of this world.

How do we solve this? I have no idea but it scares me for all those believers who are weak and just learning to walk--even as Paul was afraid for the churches in his time.

The true church has ALWAYS been more about quality than quantity of its members. When quantity was in the crowds, Jesus preached the hard truth...and then quality believers remained.

God bless
and may the love and faith that dwelt in the goldly grandparents of the past also dwell in you, even as Paul blessed and was hopeful for Timothy

tony

[Shard]

Your post goes a lot of different places. I'll be honest, the music in a church and the age of the church members are a huge reason of how people even do so much as decide what church to visit. Personally I know I want to go somewhere where the music is relevant and songs i know and where the members are close to my age. I think that much of the issue are individuals personal issues. and not signs of a larger problem.

[thefightinglamb]

Shad,

What does 'music is relevant' have to do with praising God?

What can people your age teach you about how to follow God into a place they have not been yet (older age)?

Will it ever be 'cool' to help the elderly or to help widows, the downcast, orphans, et cetera?
I add this last question because these new churches usually preach none of this because its not hip or pop, but its the gospel...
I forget most churches with people our age CONVENIENTLY get rid of these groups so that only those who are young and healthy and smiling need apply.


I know you think your new church may NEVER close its doors, but how baffled do you think its many members would be if it did? There are more churches closing than opening in America right now...closing cchurches leave baffled members.

God bless
tony

[1still_waters]

I don't think there is anything happening in today's 'new church' that hasn't happened in the past 'new churches'.

Every generation has had a group of people using the label of Christian, whom seek to simply fill their fleshly needs. The new aspect of that for us is we have cool new technology to assist iin fulfilling out fleshly needs.

Why don't we do things like they used to? Why don't we use the old buildings? Why don't we use the older teachers? Because times change. The problem isn't with something new and the throwing away of the so called old, the problem comes when the new waters things down. But like I said, people have been watering things down for 2000 years. Let's not stigmatize and cast dispersion on all of the new, because some of the new are watered down.

The church is a body and is dependent on all of its members. Both young and old. We shouldn't toss out the old, but we also shouldn't scorn the young and new either.

Sometimes the old gets dead. Sometimes God needs to rise up new steams in the desert. These new streams may not look like the older streams, but they do the same function. They refresh those who are spiritually thirsty.

Past generations had aspects that were fleshly and shallow and so does the current generation. We shouldn't allow that presence to stop us from using new things God has for us. As long as it's not against the Bible and the Spirit's desire for the church.

[thefightinglamb]

still waters,

Thanks for replying...

Take into account I agree with a lot of the premises behind your statements, but I do not think a new church will get rid of it. Any more than a new church will be spawned from said new churches and be the death of them probably. Do you think new churches were the way our grandparants and beyond dealt with 'times and technology changing'? Do you think this phenomena of new churches should have been going on since Christ? It really does scare me, and I think all believers can see why in their hearts. When I go to churches that were there and are not anymore, even if they were new churches, I feel grieved.

I also think that the amount of baptists or pentecostals for a given region is somewhat set, and the churches that are old could use these new church's members, but instead it is church fighting church (often new churches fighting new churches) for attendees/tithers.

God bless and thanks again.
tony

Originally Posted by 1still_waters

Why don't we do things like they used to? Why don't we use the old buildings? Why don't we use the older teachers? Because times change. But does the church or Jesus change? I personally believe that a devout Christian 1900 years ago and a devout Christian today should both be able to recognize each other and sit down in the same church to worship God...so are you of the belief that the church is ever evolving or that we should get back to the NEW TESTAMENT roots church (as seen in Acts?). The problem isn't with something new and the throwing away of the so called old, the problem comes when the new waters things down. But like I said, people have been watering things down for 2000 years. Let's not stigmatize and cast dispersion on all of the new, because some of the new are watered down. I agree mostly, but I think the devout Christian of the past and the present can both sit in an old church and either God will lead that church through them and the congregation to "new means of worship" or the wisdom of the old listening to God longer than we have will stifle it, and cause us to worship similiar to them. Its either we are wiser than the old or they are wiser than us...but not only wisdom its either older goldly people have heard, known and obeyed God's voice more than us, or we have more than them.

The church is a body and is dependent on all of its members. Both young and old. We shouldn't toss out the old, but we also shouldn't scorn the young and new either. Yes the old church should still have childlike faith, and I am not scorning the young and new (I attend a church that is about 40 years old I think and I believe preaches an authentic, true, and hard gospel.). But I do find it troubling how many churches (even these new churches) I have been to that are closing their doors...and I go back and feel a sense of loss.

Sometimes the old gets dead. Sometimes God needs to rise up new steams in the desert. These new streams may not look like the older streams, but they do the same function. They refresh those who are spiritually thirsty. I have been refreshed by new streams often...but old church does not equal dead church. Sometimes when growing old, a person thinks everything their parents did was dead or boring. But when they grow up, they see that life, peace, and joy are found in following the ancient ways.

Past generations had aspects that were fleshly and shallow and so does the current generation. I agree that both have fleshly and shallow aspects, but the truly holy elders in the past churches can steer those who are seeking true holiness in a way that new churches I think ALWAYS lack. We shouldn't allow that presence to stop us from using new things God has for us. I agree and would also say that old churches would probably be led to worship God with new things if the new generation was patient and earnestly prayed to God to change whatever needs to be changed so that older churches can thrive. As long as it's not against the Bible and the Spirit's desire for the church. How can dividing churches not be agianst the Bible and the Spirit's desire for the church?

Tha

[Shard]

Ok not everyone worships the same way. Personally I get about zero feeling or connection out of hymns. They just arent how i praise God. I prefer the newer versions of music, it makes me feel more alive and i actually feel emotions when i sing and I know im actually singing to praise God. I dont think it matters if someone prefers an old church to a new church. Its a personal choice. Things change, and if an established isnt doing anything to pull in new members like modern service styles or anything then it's their own fault when the doors close, not the new churches.

[Saint]

I have been to several churches in my short life. One was an old, really old church, so old it didn't have a true youth because there was only me and my brother at that age. They taught things right, but their existance revolved around themselves, they were unable to reach out to anyone outside of their church. I knew another, somewhere between old and new, and it ended up being ran by liars. Another that I went to was the new, flashy type. And by flashy, I mean that it had smoke and fire shooting out of the stage they essentially turned church into a social gathering and brought many people to the church, but also unknowingly taught things that were against the Bible. Yet another church I've been to uses relatively new music, teaches what has always been taught and what aways has been right, and has many plans on bringing others to them, which they already started. Unfortunately, corruption is growing in that church, oddly enough, it was caused by the people who were part of the "old church group" So I really think that we shouldn't get too upset about the music (as long as it is meant for praise and worship) or how old the teachers are (1 Timothy 4:12) as long as what is being taught is what is right.

[resurrection33]

An existing church can be on the wrong path, in which case a new church might be helpful.

I sort of like traditional services, but I play guitar and like to do that once in a while at church.

[SantoSubito]

I'm not opposed to people building new churches because of need. However building churches to convert a already Christian population to your brand of Christianity is not a valid reason (Calvinists are especially guilty of this in Russia). I also don't think building a new church because you didn't like the worship style at the old church is a valid reason. So no i don't think these super contemporary pop "churches" are a good thing. In fact i think they are the worst thing ever to come out of the Evangelical movement.

[thefightinglamb]

Shard,
I wrote a whether lengthly reply to this post that I didn't post after prayer. One thing that I felt called to write about was how newer 'worship songs' seem to pump me up in much the same way an olympian gets pumped up for his sport. I don't know that this is bad...but I do not think it is 'worship' though they are called 'worship songs'. I kind of think, to be honest, its the music that pumps me up for God than me necessarily worshipping God in the music. In the last post that I erased, I said that a lot of the stuff that is godly can seem dull if you don't know the deep fruit of it. Stuff like prayer, waiting and listening to God, how God is not found in the whirlwind or the loud things often, but in the whisper.

Rereading what you wrote, I find you seem to base your church on what you prefer instead of what God prefers, not saying they differ--but just seeing that you do not say what you said with the convinction that "God wants me here." You say its a personal choice, and that its all about what we prefer.

Thanks for posting.
God bless
tony

ps.Do you all really think that this stuff really justifies starting a new church and breaking off fellowship with other Christians that live near you? I mean should rappers, rockers, pianoists, organists, et cetera all have separate churches that state the worship syle?
What is dead in an 'old church' that God cannot change if its members (that would be you if you went there) and prayer were continually sent to God to cause his will to be done?

Originally Posted by Shard

Ok not everyone worships the same way. Personally I get about zero feeling or connection out of hymns. They just arent how i praise God. I prefer the newer versions of music, it makes me feel more alive and i actually feel emotions when i sing and I know im actually singing to praise God. I dont think it matters if someone prefers an old church to a new church. Its a personal choice. Things change, and if an established isnt doing anything to pull in new members like modern service styles or anything then it's their own fault when the doors close, not the new churches.

[Shard]

Originally Posted by SantoSubito

I also don't think building a new church because you didn't like the worship style at the old church is a valid reason.

How is that not a legitimate reason? If nothing in your area has a worship style that helps you grow then you need to build a new church. Some people just dont like hymns to worship, they shouldnt be forced to do it just because its what available.

[SantoSubito]

Originally Posted by Shard

How is that not a legitimate reason? If nothing in your area has a worship style that helps you grow then you need to build a new church. Some people just dont like hymns to worship, they shouldnt be forced to do it just because its what available.

Thats the problem, worship Isn't supposed to fit you, you are supposed to fit into the worship. Apart from that worship should be solemn and prayerful not full of flashing lights and noises like these pop "churches" are.

[Shard]

Originally Posted by SantoSubito

Thats the problem, worship Isn't supposed to fit you, you are supposed to fit into the worship. Apart from that worship should be solemn and prayerful not full of flashing lights and noises like these pop "churches" are.

I could care less about lights, but Ill sing 'Mighty to Save' or Hymn 134 or whatever any day of the week. And I dont believe that is wrong. It makes me happy to be able to praise God, I want to be able to praise him with energy. Not from some old dragging song thats 200 years old. To me hymns dont feel like prise. But just songs I have to swing. I actually feel good moving when its the modern style. Thats the music thats get me. You cant say thats wrong and have it be anything more than opinion.

[SantoSubito]

Originally Posted by Shard

I could care less about lights, but Ill sing 'Mighty to Save' or Hymn 134 or whatever any day of the week. And I dont believe that is wrong. It makes me happy to be able to praise God, I want to be able to praise him with energy. Not from some old dragging song thats 200 years old. To me hymns dont feel like prise. But just songs I have to swing. I actually feel good moving when its the modern style. Thats the music thats get me. You cant say thats wrong and have it be anything more than opinion.

I don't necessarily hate contemporary music either. It's the constant noise of the churches that employ it that i hate. When i walk into a Catholic or Orthodox church before Mass or the Divine liturgy it's quiet as a mouse and everyone is either kneeling in prayer or sitting silently and looking at the icons or Crucifix. When i walk into a Baptist or non-denominational Church people are talking in the sanctuary sometimes there even drinking coffee or eating donuts. In short i don't hate contemporary music i hate the irreverence of the churches that use it.

[Saint]

Originally Posted by SantoSubito

worship should be solemn and prayerful not full of flashing lights and noises like these pop "churches" are.

Where did you come up with this? Didn't David or whoever dance loudly across the street until his clothes fell off? How is that solemn? I believe that as long as the song brings you closer to God, and gives you an intimate moment with Him, the song is church-worthy.

[Saint]

Originally Posted by SantoSubito

I don't necessarily hate contemporary music either. It's the constant noise of the churches that employ it that i hate. When i walk into a Catholic or Orthodox church before Mass or the Divine liturgy it's quiet as a mouse and everyone is either kneeling in prayer or sitting silently and looking at the icons or Crucifix. When i walk into a Baptist or non-denominational Church people are talking in the sanctuary sometimes there even drinking coffee or eating donuts. In short i don't hate contemporary music i hate the irreverence of the churches that use it.

Now the lack of caring that many new churches have, that I understand. Once a church becomes a social gathering insstead of a House of God, it loses so very much

[SantoSubito]

Originally Posted by Saint

Where did you come up with this? Didn't David or whoever dance loudly across the street until his clothes fell off? How is that solemn? I believe that as long as the song brings you closer to God, and gives you an intimate moment with Him, the song is church-worthy.

Look at the Temple services in the Bible and you will see no such thing. I don't have a problem with people praising God in any way they wish in private, but in public worship it should be solemn.

[Saint]

Originally Posted by SantoSubito

Look at the Temple services in the Bible and you will see no such thing. I don't have a problem with people praising God in any way they wish in private, but in public worship it should be solemn.

but David danced and praised God in a public street.

[SantoSubito]

Originally Posted by Saint

but David danced and praised God in a public street.

Which falls under private praise as it was not part of a Temple ceremony.

[Saint]

ohh, different definition for public.