Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner?

Originally Posted by Shard

Things changed after the old testament. Jesus said to love your enemies. And personally his words overrule any old testament laws, sayings, or verses as far as Im concerned.

Not so fast. The Ten Commandments alone contain prohibitions against murder, theft and adultery.

Then there is this:

Deuteronomy 6:4,5
Key verse 6:5
“Love the Lord your God with all your heart

and with all your soul and with all your strength.”

Reiterated by Jesus in Matt 22:37-40 :

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment.

[zone]

Romans 9
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


1 Peter 2:8
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.


2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be ****ed who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.


Amen.
Come Lord Jesus.

[Shwagga]

The way you view God will reflect in your life, if you believe God is full of hate, it will be seen in your character. Now if you choose to obey Jesus and love people like He does, that will be reflected in your character.

Once again:

Matthew 5
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Luke 6:46 "But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?"

That's all I have to add to this conversation.

Zone, I have a link for you to listen to if you are willing to listen to another interpretation on those passages.
November 23, 2009 : Line of Fire

Blessings guys, shalom.

[laurajean]

I think that "loving the sinner" is a vital part of being a Christian. By displaying God's love to other sinners, especially those that aren't saved, we are furthering the kingdom of God. I find it hard to believe that a Christian would harbor hate. Aren't we prompted many times in the Bible to "love thy neighbor?" As far as "hate the sin" goes, as stated by so many on this thread, vengeance is God's alone.

Can we start a petition to end the saying? And while we're at it, get rid of "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual"?

[Shard]

Originally Posted by MKent

Not so fast. The Ten Commandments alone contain prohibitions against murder, theft and adultery.

Then there is this:

Deuteronomy 6:4,5
Key verse 6:5
“Love the Lord your God with all your heart

and with all your soul and with all your strength.”

Reiterated by Jesus in Matt 22:37-40 :

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment.

Maybe I misspoke or you misheard me, but none of what you listed contradicts Jesus... Maybe to make myself clearer if there are discrepencies between the words of Jesus and wirds in the Old Testament, then Jesus wins everytime.

[Mich223]

God exhorts us to love one another. Jesus Christ died for our sins. There is no dichotomy there. I think it is wise to hate the sin, love the sinner.

The way you view God will reflect in your life, if you believe God is full of hate, it will be seen in your character. Now if you choose to obey Jesus and love people like He does, that will be reflected in your character.

No one has said God is full of hate, so I'm not sure why you're bringing that up. I simply quoted several passages from the OT. But if what I've said gives you the impression that I think God is full of hate, then does this mean you think in the OT God was full of hate?

I provided many verses, from the Bible, that appear to explicitly state that God hates some people and that he is wrathful towards some people. I provided verses which appear to speak of God's people hating some people in a positive light.

So far people have only reasserted the validity of the slogan (fine, but that doesn't deal with the verses), said the verses no longer apply now (looks like an ad hoc distinction in God's ethical standards), or said/implied that it's okay for God to hate some persons, so the OT passages of him hating some persons apparently still apply, but not okay for us to hate, so the OT passages relating to us no longer apply (which appears to be even more ad hoc).

Once again:

Matthew 5
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

I didn't address this here because I've addressed it in another thread, here Why jew got 613 commandments, but christian got 10 only? and didn't feel like going through it again. It will probably just open an entirely different conversation, but since you bring it up again...

Basically, you seem to believe that where it says "You have heard that it was said" that this is referring to OT Law, in itself. I reject that interpretation. I believe it is referring to common rabbinic interpretation of the law.

If you think Matthew 5:43 refers to an OT law please point me to which one. I can't find the law that says "love your neighbor and hate your enemy," but maybe I'm just missing it.

Furthermore, I find it odd that Jesus would lay down new laws, thereby annulling the previous law, right after he has said "I did not come to do away with the law… not an iota, not a dot of the Law will passaway…" (Mat. 5:17-19).

So if what I've said is correct, then your quotation of Matthew 5:44ff is irrelevant since it doesn't prove Jesus was laying down a new ethical law code (in fact this would be prima facie absurd given Mat. 5:17-19). So it won't help verify the claim that we are under different ethical constraints than in the OT.

Originally Posted by Mich223

God exhorts us to love one another. Jesus Christ died for our sins. There is no dichotomy there. I think it is wise to hate the sin, love the sinner.

This is a non-response.

Nothing here addresses the questions in my initial post.

I think part of the problem might be that some are under the impression that if they affirm those verses which state God hates the wicked or they deny the dichotomy assumed in the slogan "Love the sinner, hate the sin" that they will be forced to say God only has hate for certain persons.

But I like what Charis said here:

God's hate and God's love are not in conflict. He loves those who He hates and He hates some that He loves

D. A. Carson says something similar that I agree with:

"Our problem, in part, is that in human experience wrath and love normally abide in mutually exclusive compartments... But this is not the way it is with God... [God's] love... wells up amidst his perfections and is not generated by the loveliness of the loved. Thus there is nothing intrinsically impossible about wrath and love being directed toward the same individual or people at the same time. God in his perfections must be wrathful against his rebel image-bearers, for they have offended him; God in his perfections must be loving toward his rebel image-bearers, for he is that kind of God" (emphasis original; The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God, 69).

This allows us to affirm the validity of those verses which, very clearly, state that God hates the wicked and that they are under his wrath while maintaining his love and, subsequently, his grace to them (extended on the basis of love). At the same time, it doesn't require the false dichotomy between sin and sinner that the slogan presupposes. The slogan's dichotomy forces us to take an unnatural affectional state towards sinful persons.

[Mich223]

I think it's an adequate response. You say "The slogan's dichotomy forces us to take an unnatural affectional state towards sinful persons." That's exactly what I said.

Originally Posted by Mich223

I think it's an adequate response. You say "The slogan's dichotomy forces us to take an unnatural affectional state towards sinful persons." That's exactly what I said.

How did you say that, exactly?

I don't really want to argue about whether your response was adequate, but let me explain what I mean.

I brought up the slogan "Hate the sin, love the sinner" and then posted some verses that describe God hating the sinner and followers of God hating the sinner.

I asked if these verses create tension with the slogan and how you would resolve that tension.

You replied with four sentences, none of which addressed any of the questions or, in themselves, added anything to the topic.

Your first sentence was "God exhorts us to love one another."

Okay, that's true, no one was disputing that. But what do we do with the verses I quoted?

Your second sentence was "Jesus Christ died for our sins."

Again, this is true, but irrelevant... how is that supposed to relate to the verses I quoted and how does it begin to address the questions I raised?

Your third sentence was "There is no dichotomy there."

No dichotomy where? I can only assume that "there" refers to what you've said previously. Right? Well in that case "there" must refer to your previous two sentences: God exhorts us to love one another and Jesus Christ died for our sins.

You think there is no dichotomy there... Okay, I agree, but again this is irrelevant. No one said there was a dichotomy between God's exhorting us to love and Jesus death on the cross. It doesn't add anything to the topic. No one was wondering if there was a dichotomy there and there was nothing in the topic, as far as I can see, that would suggest there was in some relevant way.

Your final sentence was "I think it is wise to hate the sin, love the sinner."

Apparently, this is the only sentence that has some relation to this thread... unfortunately, all it does is assert that the slogan is wise. It doesn't address the verses I quoted and doesn't explain how there is no tension between them and the slogan (since I assume you don't think there is any).

Hopefully this clarifies why I said your "response" is a non-response. If someone asked me how God can be good and allow evil at the same time it would be a non-response if I said "God is good. I like cheese. Do you have any change for a five?"

Two of those sentences are unrelated to how God can be good and allow evil at the same time and the one sentence that is related to the question simply asserts his goodness without answering the question, it's unhelpful.

Now, perhaps you know of some way in which your first three sentences relate perfectly to the topic and address the questions. But in that case you need to spell it out and not just assume that we will all make the logical connections ourselves.

Sorry, not trying to pick on you. But I didn't want to get a lot of people on here simply asserting the slogan is true and then go away with the impression that it must be true because a bunch of people asserted it was (and yes, this does happen, it's part of confirmation bias), so let's all throw it around some more.

[Mich223]

Although I think my thread was worthy, I think the slogan does create tension.



Psalm 5:4–6: “You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell. The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong. You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the Lord abhors.”

Psalm 11:5–7: “The Lord examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates. On the wicked he will rain fiery coals and burning sulfur; a scorching wind will be their lot. For the Lord is righteous, he loves justice; upright men will see his face.”

Set 2 -

2 Chronicles 19:2 But Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him and said to King Jehoshaphat, “Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD? Because of this, wrath has gone out against you from the LORD.

Psalm 15:1–4 O LORD, who shall sojourn in your tent? Who shall dwell on your holy hill? He who walks blamelessly and does what is right and speaks truth in his heart; who does not slander with his tongue and does no evil to his neighbor, nor takes up a reproach against his friend; in whose eyes a vile person is despised, but who honors those who fear the LORD...



I think the scriptures you mention would advocate hate the sin, hate the sinner.

[mpaper345]

The Bible says whoever calls a person a fool is in danger of hellfire.

People are to be loving towards each other and love them regardless of how they act towards them.

God created all people.God owns people.God is the judge of the world.God can hate the person but humans never can for we are not God.As humans we have to always love the person regardless of how they act and be like Jesus,who even called Judas Iscariot friend when Judas betrayed Jesus in the garden.

God owns people.They are God's property and God can speak out that He does not love them as He loves the righteous,but people cannot do so in the same fashion but must love all people regardless of how they act.

People don't own people,God owns people.People always have to be loving towards each other.

Jesus said feed and clothe your enemies.Do not verbally assault anybody and do not physically assault anybody.

Do not fight for the kingdom of God by physical force.

Love your enemies.

God can make assertions that we cannot for He is God and He owns people.We are mere humans that have to love all people,and Jesus said love your enemy who would certainly be a sinner.

God said He takes no pleasure in the perishing of the wicked.

Matt

[zone]

Originally Posted by Shwagga

The way you view God will reflect in your life, if you believe God is full of hate, it will be seen in your character. Now if you choose to obey Jesus and love people like He does, that will be reflected in your character.

Once again:

Matthew 5
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Luke 6:46 "But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?"

That's all I have to add to this conversation.

Zone, I have a link for you to listen to if you are willing to listen to another interpretation on those passages.
November 23, 2009 : Line of Fire

Blessings guys, shalom.

ummm....okay, thanks.
but i didn't interpret anything. i just posted Scripture.

i find it interesting that people always leave out the context of the following:

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself"


Luke 10
25And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 And he [the lawyer] answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. 29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

my question would be for any who think they are FULFILLING those two great commandments, how's it working for you?

can't we see by the context Jesus is using THE LAW to prove to the lawyer who TEMPTED Him that NO ONE can be declared righteous under THE LAW since NO ONE can keep them? anyone who says they have or do keep those two commandments SEAMLESSLY is not being honest. Only Jesus was able.

even after we are saved we WANT to....but we can NOT. the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak (Romans).

[mpaper345]

A rich man asked Jesus what he had to do to inherit eternal life and Jesus said keep the 10 commandments.

Paul said we do not void out the law but we establish it.

The Bible says love works no ill towards their neighbor;therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Jesus said if you do not keep His commandments you do not love Him.

The Bible says we love God if we keep His commandments.

The Bible says that a Spirit led life will not fulfill the desires of the flesh and be perfect in love.

Everyone has to fulfill the law which they can do by the Spirit.

The 10 commandments are 10 laws concerning loving God and loving people that people can fulfill by the Spirit for if a person is led by the Spirit they will have perfect love for God and people.

The 10 commandments are 10 laws concerning love for God and people which everybody has to fulfill.

Matt

Originally Posted by Credo_ut_Intelligam

Do you think the following verses create any tension with that slogan, why or why not?

...Given the tension, how do you resolve it with the slogan?

At a glance, the two seem to contradict each other. It seems hard to hate a person and love a person at the same time. But like Charis pointed out, God can love and hate a person simultaneously. I don't know that I would be able to, but that's because my emotions are not under control like God's are. I find it hard enough to continue loving someone I dislike.

I think for God, since He is completely holy, He cannot abide in sin. Sin is abhorrent to Him. We are not completely holy like God, so of course we are better able to tolerate sin (which is not a good thing, of course). While God can hate a sin and hate the person who sins, without being consumed in the emotion of hate, we cannot. We have sin living in us, so it is hard to completely hate something that is a part of us. It would be uncomfortable to our flesh for us to condemn that which we do every day.

I'm rambling. It happens when I have thoughts in my head that make sense, but can't get them to form on paper. So, I'm going to stop typing, for now, until I can get my thoughts together.

[zone]

Originally Posted by mpaper345

A rich man asked Jesus what he had to do to inherit eternal life and Jesus said keep the 10 commandments.

Paul said we do not void out the law but we establish it.

The Bible says love works no ill towards their neighbor;therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Jesus said if you do not keep His commandments you do not love Him.

The Bible says we love God if we keep His commandments.

The Bible says that a Spirit led life will not fulfill the desires of the flesh and be perfect in love.

Everyone has to fulfill the law which they can do by the Spirit.

The 10 commandments are 10 laws concerning loving God and loving people that people can fulfill by the Spirit for if a person is led by the Spirit they will have perfect love for God and people.

The 10 commandments are 10 laws concerning love for God and people which everybody has to fulfill.

Matt

wow.
i guess i'm in real trouble then.
i was pretty sure only Jesus was able to live a sinless life by obeying The Law. hmmm...