Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner?

Christian culture has certain maxims that are so common that I think we often fail to reflect upon them. I'm talking about maxims like "I'm not religious, I just love Jesus."

What do these maxims mean exactly, are they legitimate, what are the proper boundaries, how do we reconcile it with such and such etc...

Given that the slogan "Hate the sin, love the sinner" is extremely popular, i'll start with that. Do you think the following verses create any tension with that slogan, why or why not?

Set 1 -

Psalm 5:4–6: “You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell. The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong. You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the Lord abhors.”

Psalm 11:5–7: “The Lord examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates. On the wicked he will rain fiery coals and burning sulfur; a scorching wind will be their lot. For the Lord is righteous, he loves justice; upright men will see his face.”

Set 2 -

2 Chronicles 19:2 But Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him and said to King Jehoshaphat, “Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD? Because of this, wrath has gone out against you from the LORD.

Psalm 15:1–4 O LORD, who shall sojourn in your tent? Who shall dwell on your holy hill? He who walks blamelessly and does what is right and speaks truth in his heart; who does not slander with his tongue and does no evil to his neighbor, nor takes up a reproach against his friend; in whose eyes a vile person is despised, but who honors those who fear the LORD...

I suggest that the two sets of verses might create tension with the slogan because they don't make the sinner/sin dichotomy that the slogan presupposes. Given the tension, how do you resolve it with the slogan?

[wwjd_kilden]

Originally Posted by Credo_ut_Intelligam

, how do you resolve it with the slogan?

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.


"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God..."

Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you...


we are to STAY AWAY from sin, hate sin, and tell others how to do right
we are NOT to hate people...

This doesn't resolve the tension. It just pits one set of verses against another. My question would be how you accommodate both those verses you've quoted and the one's in my initial post.

[wwjd_kilden]

well, GOD is perfect, so I guess it is up to hi to decide what do do to peole
WE are sinners, so we have no "right" to hate others? (Only God is perfect, only He can judge)

[phil36]

Im not very keen on the slogan myself. The slogan itself distinguishes where it deosn't need to, it was maybe well intentioned but.. doesn't help anyone.

Phil

Originally Posted by wwjd_kilden

well, GOD is perfect, so I guess it is up to hi to decide what do do to peole
WE are sinners, so we have no "right" to hate others? (Only God is perfect, only He can judge)

Does this mean you you think the slogan "Hate the sin, love the sinner" is not true of God, but should be true of us?

But the second set of verses I mentioned (2 Chron. 19:2 and Psalm 15:1-4) are speaking about us and our duties, not God. (Granted neither one of the verses use the word hate. But they are not clearly compatible with the slogan. For example, using Psalm 15, how is consistent to say "Hate the sin, but love and despise the sinner"?)

As far as the "judge" thing goes. That is another common slogan that could be examined. In at least one passage it seems we are commanded to judge (John 7:24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment). So can we just throw around the "judge not" slogan without qualification? But I'd rather leave that alone for now.

P.S. I hope this doesn't come across in the wrong way. I'm just trying to see if there is any substance behind the slogan and, if so, what that substance is.

[loveschild]

How one person has said that Jesus said love your enemies. We are to remember that we are brothers and sisters with everyone on earth.

We are to love and pray for them all to come to Christ. The hot burning coals are Gods love. God is a consuming fire.

There are lots of people who are doing evil. Some have been born raised in cultures to where they haven't been taught about Jesus Christ. They have been taught a false god all of their lives. Thats all they know. We pray for them to come to Christ.

By our prayers every single one of these people will be spoken to about Jesus.

Think of how even though we sin God still loves us. He forgives us over and over again hoping for us to get it right and not do that sin again.

How many times do I forgive my brother or my sister? It is our job just to forgive. As Jesus for gives us.

[wwjd_kilden]

Originally Posted by Credo_ut_Intelligam

Does this mean you you think the slogan "Hate the sin, love the sinner" is not true of God, but should be true of us?

But the second set of verses I mentioned (2 Chron. 19:2 and Psalm 15:1-4) are speaking about us and our duties, not God. (Granted neither one of the verses use the word hate. But they are not clearly compatible with the slogan. For example, using Psalm 15, how is consistent to say "Hate the sin, but love and despise the sinner"?)

As far as the "judge" thing goes. That is another common slogan that could be examined. In at least one passage it seems we are commanded to judge (John 7:24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment). So can we just throw around the "judge not" slogan without qualification? But I'd rather leave that alone for now.

P.S. I hope this doesn't come across in the wrong way. I'm just trying to see if there is any substance behind the slogan and, if so, what that substance is.

I see your point, it's just that there are so many loonies out there that seem to remove love fro the equation :S and thats how bad things happen. But even though those verses are there, I personally think it's wrong to hate, no matter the reason. Hate in the "hands" of humans will often lead to destruction some way or another

[Shard]

Originally Posted by Credo_ut_Intelligam

Christian culture has certain maxims that are so common that I think we often fail to reflect upon them. I'm talking about maxims like "I'm not religious, I just love Jesus."

What do these maxims mean exactly, are they legitimate, what are the proper boundaries, how do we reconcile it with such and such etc...

Given that the slogan "Hate the sin, love the sinner" is extremely popular, i'll start with that. Do you think the following verses create any tension with that slogan, why or why not?

Set 1 -

Psalm 5:4–6: “You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell. The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong. You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the Lord abhors.”

Psalm 11:5–7: “The Lord examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates. On the wicked he will rain fiery coals and burning sulfur; a scorching wind will be their lot. For the Lord is righteous, he loves justice; upright men will see his face.”

Set 2 -

2 Chronicles 19:2 But Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him and said to King Jehoshaphat, “Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD? Because of this, wrath has gone out against you from the LORD.

Psalm 15:1–4 O LORD, who shall sojourn in your tent? Who shall dwell on your holy hill? He who walks blamelessly and does what is right and speaks truth in his heart; who does not slander with his tongue and does no evil to his neighbor, nor takes up a reproach against his friend; in whose eyes a vile person is despised, but who honors those who fear the LORD...

I suggest that the two sets of verses might create tension with the slogan because they don't make the sinner/sin dichotomy that the slogan presupposes. Given the tension, how do you resolve it with the slogan?

Things changed after the old testament. Jesus said to love your enemies. And personally his words overrule any old testament laws, sayings, or verses as far as Im concerned.

Originally Posted by Credo_ut_Intelligam

Christian culture has certain maxims that are so common that I think we often fail to reflect upon them. I'm talking about maxims like "I'm not religious, I just love Jesus."

What do these maxims mean exactly, are they legitimate, what are the proper boundaries, how do we reconcile it with such and such etc...

Given that the slogan "Hate the sin, love the sinner" is extremely popular, i'll start with that. Do you think the following verses create any tension with that slogan, why or why not?

Set 1 -

Psalm 5:4–6: “You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell. The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong. You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the Lord abhors.”

Psalm 11:5–7: “The Lord examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates. On the wicked he will rain fiery coals and burning sulfur; a scorching wind will be their lot. For the Lord is righteous, he loves justice; upright men will see his face.”

Set 2 -

2 Chronicles 19:2 But Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him and said to King Jehoshaphat, “Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD? Because of this, wrath has gone out against you from the LORD.

Psalm 15:1–4 O LORD, who shall sojourn in your tent? Who shall dwell on your holy hill? He who walks blamelessly and does what is right and speaks truth in his heart; who does not slander with his tongue and does no evil to his neighbor, nor takes up a reproach against his friend; in whose eyes a vile person is despised, but who honors those who fear the LORD...

I suggest that the two sets of verses might create tension with the slogan because they don't make the sinner/sin dichotomy that the slogan presupposes. Given the tension, how do you resolve it with the slogan?

If we want to know what God is like we look at Jesus right? He is the visible image of the invisible God?

I'd like to add the following to the conversation:

Matthew 5
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ [IE. The Scriptures you just posted.]
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

So pretty much Jesus wouldn't instruct us or command us to do something that isn't in His own nature, I mean He says we shall be perfect just as our Father in heaven is perfect if we love EVERYONE, so in the same way - He loves everyone because He is perfect.
Blessings bro.

Originally Posted by Credo_ut_Intelligam

Does this mean you you think the slogan "Hate the sin, love the sinner" is not true of God, but should be true of us?

But the second set of verses I mentioned (2 Chron. 19:2 and Psalm 15:1-4) are speaking about us and our duties, not God. (Granted neither one of the verses use the word hate. But they are not clearly compatible with the slogan. For example, using Psalm 15, how is consistent to say "Hate the sin, but love and despise the sinner"?)

As far as the "judge" thing goes. That is another common slogan that could be examined. In at least one passage it seems we are commanded to judge (John 7:24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment). So can we just throw around the "judge not" slogan without qualification? But I'd rather leave that alone for now.

P.S. I hope this doesn't come across in the wrong way. I'm just trying to see if there is any substance behind the slogan and, if so, what that substance is.

That saying ( love the sinner & hate the sin ) is the most over used saying , Yes I do agree we are to love them, but part of love is showing IN-LOVE what sin will lead to .. Sometimes I think Christians are afraid to make a stand for what is right because we don't want to offend anyone .. well that's my 2 cents .. God Bless you ...

This New Testament passage appears to be congruent with the Old Testament passages I quoted:

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

How would you understand this passage, for those who see a shift in the NT?

[Shard]

the wrath of God remains on him. Im not God, its not my place to be assigning and dealing out wrath.

Originally Posted by Credo_ut_Intelligam

This New Testament passage appears to be congruent with the Old Testament passages I quoted:

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

How would you understand this passage, for those who see a shift in the NT?

That doesn't indicate that God hates them...

Ephesians 2
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Let's not forget how we were before we came into a relationship with God, we were just like the other sons of disobedience walking in our own lust and sin, and what does the Bible say?

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

It just frightens me to see what you may be getting out of these scriptures you posted above and it doesn't sound like it's going to bear much fruit for the kingdom.

John 13:35
By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another

1 John 4
20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?
21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.

I encourage you to read Luke chapter 10 verses 25-37, when Jesus is challenged on "who is my neighbor"...

I hope it benefits you and let's just not forget the teachings of Jesus when He says to love all and love our enemies,

Jesus says in Luke 6:46 "But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?" It's a good question to ask ourselves when we are not obeying the greatest commandments. I also encourage you to read 1 Corinthians 13, it's a good place to describe what love is, and let's not forget 1 John 4:8 .. "God is love"....

Sorry for all the scripture/scripture references it's just this is a very important topic and we really can't be in error and say it's okay to hate.. When we find ourselves saying this we really have to examine our walk with the Lord and take some time, step away from our theology what it allows us and does not allow us to do and spend some heart to heart time with the King of kings.

Blessings.

[phil36]

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

just a note shwagga, don't you think by carefully reading these 2 scripture God is talking about those who believe and not everyone?

Blessings

Phil

Originally Posted by phil36

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

just a note shwagga, don't you think by carefully reading these 2 scripture God is talking about those who believe and not everyone?

Blessings

Phil

Phil, I really do not wish to get into a debate with you on this again you allow your theology to get in the way of having a genuine conversation. Unwillingness to recognize the true meaning of the verses because it doesn't line up with your theology does not mean that the verses are not true.

I was using the scriptures to demonstrate how God loves the world not just those who believe. Also Phil, if you are mean to say because Romans 5:8 says "we" it means Jesus did not die for the world therefore He does not love them? Read 1 John 2:2 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

[phil36]

Originally Posted by Shwagga

Phil, I really do not wish to get into a debate with you on this again you allow your theology to get in the way of having a genuine conversation. Unwillingness to recognize the true meaning of the verses because it doesn't line up with your theology does not mean that the verses are not true.

I was using the scriptures to demonstrate how God loves the world not just those who believe. Also Phil, if you are mean to say because Romans 5:8 says "we" it means Jesus did not die for the world therefore He does not love them? Read 1 John 2:2 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hi Shwagga, sorry if you took it to me my theology against yours, it wasn't meant that way, infact it was adding to the conversation. The way you view these verse will ultimatly result in your view to the original post thats all.

So I really do apologize if you mistook it for a debate that happened a while ago. I do mean that. For it was not the intent.

Your are correct that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, but at the end of the day it is only applied to those who believe, that is my point and it ties in with the original thread starter, and the slogan.

Anyhow, shwagga i apologize if I upset you if you thought this was about something else.

Blessings

Phil

Originally Posted by phil36

Hi Shwagga, sorry if you took it to me my theology against yours, it wasn't meant that way, infact it was adding to the conversation. The way you view these verse will ultimatly result in your view to the original post thats all.

So I really do apologize if you mistook it for a debate that happened a while ago. I do mean that. For it was not the intent.

Your are correct that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, but at the end of the day it is only applied to those who believe, that is my point and it ties in with the original thread starter, and the slogan.

Anyhow, shwagga i apologize if I upset you if you thought this was about something else.

Blessings

Phil

Sorry Phil, I took it the wrong way.. God bless you bro I understand where you are coming from now. Feel free to add more to the discussion, by all means.

Blessings.

God's hate and God's love are not in conflict. He loves those who He hates and He hates some that He loves. His hatred is not the instinctive hatred that we feel. It is an act of His will. (Consider this--the omniscient God feels the fires of hell more acutely than the one who is punished there.) The word hate is the closest we can come to how God feels and acts. His hate is deeper, but is completely exercised by His will. It requred an exercise of that hate to send His beloved Son to the cross. The hate of God was directed by His will upon His Son, because of His love for us. And in order for that to happen, He hated those who would reject His love, and He continues to love them even into the depths of hell. I don't know if I have expressed this clear enough for I only grasp the smallest tip of it.

That doesn't indicate that God hates them…

I'm not sure what the substantive distinction between wrath and hate would be. The concepts seem interchangeable the way we often use them in English. At least in Job 16:9 the translators of the ESV and KJV don't see a substantive difference between the English terms:

"He has torn me in his wrath and hated me; he has gnashed his teeth at me; my adversary sharpens his eyes against me."

I've already quoted passages which speak of God's "hate" of some persons. So is the argument now that God felt hate towards some persons in the OT, but now he only feels wrath towards some persons in the NT?

This looks like a curios (ad hoc) distinction.

And, if I understand the argument, in the OT worshippers of God could also rightly "hate" some persons (Psalm 139:21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?), but now we can no longer do this?

My own opinion is that the concepts and our entire affectional/cognitive complex is more dynamic than these categories suggested by the slogan and by the resolutions presented here, which appear ad hoc and stilted.

For example, as you point out, 1 John 4:20 says "If anyone says, 'I love God,' and hates [mise] his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen."

But Luke 14:26 says "If anyone comes to me and does not hate [misei] his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."

We see the same with "wrath." Compare John 3:36 and Ephesians 4:26 -

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath [orge] of God remains on him"

"Be angry [orgizo] and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger [parorgismos]"

I agree with Charis, God's affections are not in conflict. Ours often are, but they shouldn't be and aren't necessarily so. I think we can account for the OT passages like Psa. 139:21 and NT passages like 1 John 4:20 and Luke 14:26 without the OT/NT dichotomy that seems to make God's ethics contradictory. Furthermore, the idea that we can separate the sinner from the sin seems unbiblical. The fact is both are abhorrent to God, which is why the wrath of God remains upon the unbeliever himself/herself and not just on the unbeliever's actions.