Perfection?

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Jun 29, 2010
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#1
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I am just curious how would you all explain this command of Jesus Christ away? Or do you believe this is attainable?
 
L

laurajean

Guest
#2
If you start with verse 38, Jesus is giving instructions not to abide by "An eye for an eye" or "Love your neighbor and hate your enemy" which were common theologies. Instead, he calls us to "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" (44). Verse 48 is a calling to treat everyone the way that God treats us, with love.
 
S

Saint

Guest
#3
Yeah, essentially Jesus was talking about love. There are many ways to reach a type of perfection, like in love or in faith etc, but we do not reach true perfection (holiness) until we reach Heaven.
 
R

Ricke

Guest
#4
Forerunner
This verse is commanding us to grow, and mature in The Lord.
This is God's perfect plan for his Faithful, Obedient, and Biblically Converted Children.

Here is another verse that says the same actually;

Philippians 2 v2 and verse 5 " Fulfill Ye my joy, that Ye be like-minded having the same love , being of one accord, of ONE MIND".

Verse 5 " let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus".

Also, regarding "Pre-trib" or "mid-trib". I am flexible on either one but totally against a "post trib" beleif. I have really never gotton into this maybe like I should. As a Minister, we have to be very careful in what we say regarding future Prophecy. One Mistake, and you can rest assured is going to expose you as a false prophet. Oneness, Water Baptism is no problem for me, most don't beleive it, and we do. Anyway, thank you Brother..
 
Jun 29, 2010
398
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#5
Yeah, essentially Jesus was talking about love. There are many ways to reach a type of perfection, like in love or in faith etc, but we do not reach true perfection (holiness) until we reach Heaven.
Show me the passage of scripture that makes you believe that?
 
May 21, 2009
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#8
By the blood Of Jesus he has already made us pure. He says for us to put on his robes of righteousness means we are holy.

To be perfect means to keep pushing on to be better and better everyday.

Only with Jesus can we do this. Following the Holy Spirits lead. He will tell you when you are off track so you can get back on the good road.
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#9
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I am just curious how would you all explain this command of Jesus Christ away? Or do you believe this is attainable?
I believe perfection is attainable.

One might want to consider what it means to be perfect, wouldn’t you think?
 
S

Saint

Guest
#10
1 Corinthians 9:25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.

There are about 5 definitions for temperate, but all of them essentially say that it is "not extreme" or "not excessive" Now holiness on the other hand is the extreme of sinless, you cannot be temperately holy. That would be like being mildly scolding hot.

The end of 1 Corinthians 13 says that we are not whole yet (and therefore not perfect) until "then" or when we are with Jesus

James 3:2 says: For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. Now, if we all stumble, then we all are not perfect. And plus: James 2:10 says For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. And we stumble in many things, not just one thing.

And obviously, Romans 3:23: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
 
S

Saint

Guest
#11
by the way, is this going to lead to another OSAS discussion?
 
D

Daughter

Guest
#12
If this is truly written in the bible then it's possible Forerunner.
There's only one condition, we can't trust on our own filthy rags. We have to trust God for it.
By the way the true gospel says that Jesus died for our sins.
If we don't even believe that, what use is it to call ourselves saved?

I just checked it and this is part of the sermon on the mount.

Anyway, I do believe it's possible... But we can't do this on our own strength because our hearts are corrupt and the mind is wicked.
It's God who can only form us in this way...
By the way, loving God also means obeying God.
It's not a sentimental thing where you keep singing lovesongs to Him and keep disobeying Him.
If you love Him, you obey Him...

Anyway, it's quite interesting to think about this verse:

16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


It's by faith we are saved but faith also produces works of course.
The fact is, Faith and works without eachother are dead.
If we believe God about His words, we'll experience the effect of it, but if we don't believe Him. Our faith isn't even a faith but something dead.

By the way:
Everything is possible with God.
And God is not part of this creation but He is the creator Himself.
So He's huge!!!

The question which might be good to ask is, how big is your God?
I can ask this question myself as well sometimes because I trust too many times on my own mind as well which I have to take seriously.

Anyway, I hope you can get something out of these words

God bless you

Sarah
 
Jun 29, 2010
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#13
The end of 1 Corinthians 13 says that we are not whole yet (and therefore not perfect) until "then" or when we are with Jesus
Scripture tells us we can live a live of perfect holiness without sin which I will get to in my next post. However we cannot be completely perfect as in out bodies are growing old, but we can perfect our minds, our thoughts, our hearts, our spirits, our actions.
James 3:2 says: For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. Now, if we all stumble, then we all are not perfect. And plus: James 2:10 says For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. And we stumble in many things, not just one thing.
You got a bad translation there buddy.
James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

Even Jesus was offensive at time, are you claiming He was not perfect?

And obviously, Romans 3:23: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
This is before salvation. We have all sinned that does not mean we need to continue to sin.
 
M

Mich223

Guest
#15
I agree Matt 5:48 is exhonorating us to grow and mature in the Lord. Although we are not perfect, we can strive for perfection in the way we live our lives.
 
Jun 29, 2010
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#16
Scripture that tells us to live sinless lives
Matthew 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Rom 6:20-22
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life

2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Ephesians 4:17-32
17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind,
18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart;
19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But you have not so learned Christ,
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
Do Not Grieve the Spirit
25 Therefore, putting away lying, “ Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor, for we are members of one another.
26 “Be angry, and do not sin” do not let the sun go down on your wrath,
27 nor give place to the devil.
28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need.
29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers.
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice.
32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

Ephesians 5:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light

1st Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from every form of evil.

1st John 2
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1st John 3
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.




Scriptures that say we are able to live sinlessly

Romans 8
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit

1st Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil


Jude 24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless, Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy



Scripture for walking in the Spirit.
Romans 6:1-4
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Galatians 5:16
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

1st John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.



Scriptures that tell us to be humble while pursuing perfection
Phil 3
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.

1st Corinthians 9
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

1st Corinthians 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

1st Corinthians 15:31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily


All thing are possible with God
Matthew 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”


Ephesians 3:20Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,







So back to the question How does God accomplish this in us? By showing us exactly who Christ is, and who we are. So when you ask yourself who is Christ and who we are you will probably come up with many answers. Christ is King of Kings, Lord of Lord, our Savior, the only true and righteous Judge, the almighty God these are all true. We are the redeemed, the Church, His body, a royal priesthood ect..., and these are all true, but the revelation that will truly change your life if you are able to fully comprehend the ramifications of this truth, is the 'Bridal Paradigm''. When we see Christ as our beloved Bridegroom, and we as His cherished Bride perfect in His sight, we will undoubtedly rid ourselves of all sin, and rededicate our lives to loving, and serving our Groom. When we come to the realization of the undying, unending, unexplainable love Christ has for us, we will love Him and others like we did not know was possible.
Ephesians 3
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

The Bible says in in 2nd Corinthians 6:14 to not be unequally yoked. Do you think Jesus is returning of an unequally yoke Bride? No, and He is not sitting in Heaven waiting for you to get your act straight before He returns. If you are not equally yokled to Christ when He returns you will not be apart of His Bride.
''Glory, is accomplishing what God has put us here on Earth to do" What God has created us to do or become is an equally yoked Bride for Christ, and to be equally yoked with Christ we must become perfected, and sinless in every way.
Ephesians 5
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.



Even though it is Christ that works through us, and we can do nothing in ourselves it is still us who must allow Him to work in us therefore partnering with Christ cleansing ourself from all unrightouesness
1st Corinthians 15
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

2nd Corinthians 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Galtians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lust.

Philippians 2
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1st John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

See even though it is Christ that works in us, but it is we who must remain stedfast, crucify our flesh, making manifest our Savior, working out our own salvation, purifying ourselves, cleansing ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God, making ourselves ready for our Bridegroom King.



Jesus is returning for a perfected, equally yoked Bride. Will we make ourselves ready?
Revelation 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
 
Jun 29, 2010
398
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0
#17
I agree Matt 5:48 is exhonorating us to grow and mature in the Lord. Although we are not perfect, we can strive for perfection in the way we live our lives.
Why strive to become something you know for a fact to can never become?
 
M

MidniteWelder

Guest
#18
It is an ongoing process as a christian and something to always be striving for, that's one of the reasons Jesus came as a human man and showed us how and that it is possible.
If we are able to show perfection in Love here on earth, I believe we have exhibited to God we can also show we will be able to do the same in heaven. God wouldn't want spiteful, hateful, vengeful people in heaven or those that challenge God since that's exactly what Lucifer (at one time one of Gods most highly regarded angels) was thrown out of heaven for.

Matthew 5
If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I am just curious how would you all explain this command of Jesus Christ away? Or do you believe this is attainable?
 
Y

yahweh_is4me

Guest
#19
Forerunner
This verse is commanding us to grow, and mature in The Lord.
This is God's perfect plan for his Faithful, Obedient, and Biblically Converted Children.


Here is another verse that says the same actually;
Philippians 2 v2 and verse 5 " Fulfill Ye my joy, that Ye be like-minded having the same love , being of one accord, of ONE MIND".

Verse 5 " let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus".

Also, regarding "Pre-trib" or "mid-trib". I am flexible on either one but totally against a "post trib" beleif. I have really never gotton into this maybe like I should. As a Minister, we have to be very careful in what we say regarding future Prophecy. One Mistake, and you can rest assured is going to expose you as a false prophet. Oneness, Water Baptism is no problem for me, most don't beleive it, and we do. Anyway, thank you Brother..
I agree with that is means christian maturity as we grow in HIM , and how we do that is read an to apply what we read to our lives daily.. I like that in Philippians we are instructed to be like minded being in one accord ! so many Christians forget that. that's sad .. God bless you its a good post :)
 
M

MidniteWelder

Guest
#20
Hey Robo can u extend the edit timer to more than 5 mins :) thanks
We should pray to God every day to forgive us for any Ill thoughts we may have toward others, and in that if we are to correct (not judge) any person, that we may be able to do that with Love and understanding just as you would with a child, instead of out of hatred or selfishness.