Historical Premillennialism

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onwingsaseagles

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#1
I am what you would call a ''Historical Premillennialist''. It is called the Historical view because it is just that, it is the view of the Apostles and their disciples, and I believe it is the view taught by Jesus and Paul in the scriptures.
I believe.....

#1 That the church and the Israel of God are one. I do not believe in ''Replacement theology'' but that we were of 2 made 1 new man as taught in Ephesians 2:11-19 and that we are grafted into the true Israel of God as taught in Romans 11:17-24.

#2 That the just of all ages will be resurrected at the posttrib 2nd coming and that immediately after the resurrection of the just those that have survived the tribulation and remain alive will be caught up or ''raptured'' at that time. That we the dead in Christ and the living saint will receive immortal heavenly bodies at the posttrib 2nd coming as we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air as taught in 1st Cor 15:51-53, 1st Thess 4:15-17, and 1st John 3:2

#3 At this point after the resurrection and the rapture Jesus will purge the wicked by fire as taught in Matthew 3:12 and 2nd Thess 1:6-10 and restore the Jewish nation that have not bowed to the anti christ as taught in Romans 11:25-26. The Jews will enter the Millennium in their mortal bodies and populate it with mortal, while the church or the bride (those resurrected and raptured) will reign with Christ as kings and priests during the Millennium in immortal heavenly bodies as taught in Revelation 20:4-6.

#4 That at the end of the Millennium Satan will be loosed from the bottomless pit, he will deceive a great multitude of mortals God will destroy them, then will come the great white throne judgment as taught in Revelation 20:7-15.

#5 After the Great White Throne judgment New Jerusalem will come down from Heaven to the New Earth we will live in the New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus Christ for all eternity, while the wicked suffer for all eternity in the Lake of Fire as taught in Revelation 21.

P.S. The heaven and Earth that exists now will not exists after the White Throne Judgment.
 
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skunk

Guest
#2
I don't know what to believe about the end anymore. I had always believed (because it is what the majority of churches preach), that the rapture will happen and we Christians will be spared from the tribulation. Then, I heard another viewpoint that made a lot of sense, when explained in detail, that the tribulation already happened in the first century, and that all we are waiting for now is Jesus to come back. Every viewpoint on the tribulation is interesting, and we should be prepared for anything (even a tribulation or end times that doesn't fit into anything we have heard before or thought possible). Our main focus ought not be on how, but why, and to give glory to He who has saved us.
 
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sonofjay817

Guest
#3
There you have it folks. One eagle and one skunk.
 
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onwingsaseagles

Guest
#5
I don't know what to believe about the end anymore. I had always believed (because it is what the majority of churches preach), that the rapture will happen and we Christians will be spared from the tribulation. Then, I heard another viewpoint that made a lot of sense, when explained in detail, that the tribulation already happened in the first century, and that all we are waiting for now is Jesus to come back. Every viewpoint on the tribulation is interesting, and we should be prepared for anything (even a tribulation or end times that doesn't fit into anything we have heard before or thought possible). Our main focus ought not be on how, but why, and to give glory to He who has saved us.
The tribulation has definitely have not passed, it is still in the future, and is coming soon, and no the Christians we not be whisked away to heaven before it begins, but caught up to meet the Lord in the air as He returns to earth immediately after it the tribulation is over.
 
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onwingsaseagles

Guest
#7
Ok brother. No sense of humor; noted.
lol.. this post was funnier than you first one, and I have a since of humor, but this thread was not meant to be funny.
 
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oneholyfire

Guest
#8
Sonofjay I liked the skunk joke. (No offense intended anyone) As forthe rapture taking place after the tribulation, that's certainly been a topic of debate for many Christians and scholars alike. And I've never heard the teaching that suggested that the rapture has already taken place, that sounds like false doctrine to me, but it sure takes the pressure off.
 
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onwingsaseagles

Guest
#9
Sonofjay I liked the skunk joke. (No offense intended anyone) As forthe rapture taking place after the tribulation, that's certainly been a topic of debate for many Christians and scholars alike. And I've never heard the teaching that suggested that the rapture has already taken place, that sounds like false doctrine to me, but it sure takes the pressure off.
Actually it is taught it is called preterism, and they call us folk that believe it has not happen yet futurist. It was being taught back in Paul's day that is why He told the Thessalonians in 2nd Thess 2:1-3 that the rapture would not occur until after the apostasy or until after the anti christ has been revealed (another proof against the lie of the pretrib rapture. aAlso Paul write to Timothy in 2nd Timothy about the false belief that the Rapture/ Resurrection of the just had already past.
2 Timothy 17-18
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.



So the false teaching that the rapture has already occured is a long standing false doctrine.


On a side note preterist believe all biblical prophesy was fulfilled by 70 A.D.


And on another side note even if they pretrib rapture doctrine has not caused anyone to stumble yet it will once the tribulation starts and those that have believed this lie think #1 that they have been left behind or #2 that God has broken His promise to remove them before the tribulation started.
 
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oneholyfire

Guest
#10
So I'm curious, how do you explain 2 Thess. 2:7,8?
 
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onwingsaseagles

Guest
#11
So I'm curious, how do you explain 2 Thess. 2:7,8?
A better question is what explanation does it need. I never could figure out why people suppose this is irrefutable proof for the pretrib doctrine. It simply says that when the restrainer is taken out of the way then the anti christ will be revealed. There is no reason for that to put a pretrib slant on the subject especially when verses 1-3 of that very same chapter 2nd thess 2 has just told us that the gathering together of the saints (or rapture) would Not occur until after the anti christ is revealed, so there should be no question that the removal of the restrainer has nothing at all to do with the 2nd coming or the rapture because the restrainer is going to be removed first then the anti christ revealed and then the rapture can take place.

Now as far as who the restrainer is, no one really knows. I have heard many arguments for many different peopel or things. I know the pretrib camp claims it is the church, but as I have already shown that is impossible. I have also heard it was the Holy Spirit but I do not believe that because whether the rapture is pre or post trib there will be saints on the rearth during the trib and God told us He would never leave us or forsake us so the Holy Spirit is not the restrainer. I heard some people even claim the restrainer is Satan himself, holding the anti christ back for just the right moment in time, but the best argument for who the restrainer is that I have heard is Micheal the Arc Angel. I believe he is the one preventing Satan from unleashing his terror on the earth and Micheal is the one God is going to remove to allow the Tribulation to start. However like I said at the top, the Bible does not tell us who the restrainer is, and any argument is pure speculation.
 
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NazariteNation

Guest
#12
lol.. this post was funnier than you first one, and I have a since of humor, but this thread was not meant to be funny.
Finally... someone who probably reads more than I do! *lol*

Just out of curiousity OnWings, just how many books have you read in the last six months? Right now I'm slowly making my way through a couple of pretty thick commentaries...
 
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onwingsaseagles

Guest
#13
Finally... someone who probably reads more than I do! *lol*

Just out of curiousity OnWings, just how many books have you read in the last six months? Right now I'm slowly making my way through a couple of pretty thick commentaries...
Sorry to disappoint you but I mainly just read the Bible i have read a few book here and there on the different view of the rapture and millennium though. However I found out about Historical Premillennialism because after hearing my opinion on the end times someone accused me of being a heretic in the form of historical premillennialist. (it was an almillenial catholic that made this accusation). So I googled it and found out he was right I am a Historical Premillennialist and the more I studied it the prouder I am to be assosiated with them. Like I said before it was the teaching of John the Revelator as well as his disciples such as Polycarp and Ireneus, and was the view of amost all christians for the first 4 centuries of christianity until condemned as heresy by Catholics in 425AD who still to this day do not even believe in the Millennium at all.
 
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NazariteNation

Guest
#14
Sorry to disappoint you but I mainly just read the Bible i have read a few book here and there on the different view of the rapture and millennium though. However I found out about Historical Premillennialism because after hearing my opinion on the end times someone accused me of being a heretic in the form of historical premillennialist. (it was an almillenial catholic that made this accusation). So I googled it and found out he was right I am a Historical Premillennialist and the more I studied it the prouder I am to be assosiated with them. Like I said before it was the teaching of John the Revelator as well as his disciples such as Polycarp and Ireneus, and was the view of amost all christians for the first 4 centuries of christianity until condemned as heresy by Catholics in 425AD who still to this day do not even believe in the Millennium at all.
The Millennial Kingdom... you and I seem to be headed in the same direction however, from different angles.
 
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onwingsaseagles

Guest
#15
The Millennial Kingdom... you and I seem to be headed in the same direction however, from different angles.
Could you explain that statement I am curious as to what you mean?
 
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NazariteNation

Guest
#16
Could you explain that statement I am curious as to what you mean?
Scripture tells us that one day Christ will return to earth to set up His Kingdom. Scripture also states that Just as Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father, so shall we sit at the right hand of Christ.

It appears to me that the majority of christians today seem content with simply getting a foot in the doorway of heaven doing & just enough to get themselves by. However, I tend see things a little differently.

If Christ came the first time to restore order as it pertains to our relationship with God, then that also means Christ restored God's original purpose for mankind.
 

olivetree32

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2009
226
36
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#17
So onwings, do you think its your job to teach everyone about the tribulation, or do you think its the job of the holy spirit?
also in 1 Thess 5:9 it says that God did not appoint us to suffer wrath
if God did not appoint us to suffer wrath, than why do you think that God would allow us to be left behind Onwings, espeacially when you read about all that will happen in those days. I mean in 1 Thess 5 :2 it says the day of the Lord will come as a theif in the night. We don't know Onwings, no one knows. And i do agree that people will be saved during the time of the tribulation, that is clear, however the bible clearly states, that God's wrath is not for His children. God is a God of mercy.
But yes, many will come to know and bless Christ and His name, and how could they do so withouth the holy spirit.
matthew
mat24:36"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, [fn] but My Father only.Mat 24:37But as the days of Noah [were], so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.Mat 24:38For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,Mat 24:39and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.Mat 24:40Then two [men] will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
Mat 24:41Two [women will be] grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.Mat 24:42Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour [fn] your Lord is coming.Mat 24:43But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.Mat 24:44Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.





 
Jan 8, 2009
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#18
Re: tribulation already occurring.

In one sense it has. The great tribulation which Jesus spoke of was not just about an end times event but it was for the Jews to whom He was speaking to about the destruction and trampling of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 ad , which I believe was the start of 300 or so years of intense persecution of the church. Jesus told them in Matt 24:16 to flee into the mountains which many of them did and were saved.

People's New Testament commentary:

Mat 24:21
Great tribulation. The account given by Josephus, the Jewish historian who witnessed and recorded the war, is almost an echo of the predictions of Christ. Women ate their own children from starvation; the Jews within the city fought each other as well as the Roman army; on August 10, A. D. 70, the city was stormed and there was a universal massacre; 1,100,00 persons perished, and 100,000 survivors were sold into slavery.

But then Christ goes onto explain the even greater tribulation, the one concerning His second coming etc.


I am what you would call a ''Historical Premillennialist''. It is called the Historical view because it is just that, it is the view of the Apostles and their disciples, and I believe it is the view taught by Jesus and Paul in the scriptures.
I believe.....

Ok I've never really studied it before but I'll see if I agree...


#1 That the church and the Israel of God are one. I do not believe in ''Replacement theology'' but that we were of 2 made 1 new man as taught in Ephesians 2:11-19 and that we are grafted into the true Israel of God as taught in Romans 11:17-24.

Yes I think that's right. Christians = Israel. Spiritual Israel, spiritual Jerusalem, is the Church. Both Jew and Gentile believers are one.



#2 That the just of all ages will be resurrected at the posttrib 2nd coming and that immediately after the resurrection of the just those that have survived the tribulation and remain alive will be caught up or ''raptured'' at that time. That we the dead in Christ and the living saint will receive immortal heavenly bodies at the posttrib 2nd coming as we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air as taught in 1st Cor 15:51-53, 1st Thess 4:15-17, and 1st John 3:2

AGreed.




#3 At this point after the resurrection and the rapture Jesus will purge the wicked by fire as taught in Matthew 3:12 and 2nd Thess 1:6-10 and restore the Jewish nation that have not bowed to the anti christ as taught in Romans 11:25-26. The Jews will enter the Millennium in their mortal bodies and populate it with mortal, while the church or the bride (those resurrected and raptured) will reign with Christ as kings and priests during the Millennium in immortal heavenly bodies as taught in Revelation 20:4-6.
Not sure about the purgin by fire prior or during to the Millenium. Matthew 3:12 and 2nd Thess 1:6-10 could be speaking about the Lake of fire, second death. Or possibly the time when the heavens and earth will be destroyed by fire (2 Pe 3:7, 3:12. Which I believe occurs at or after the Judgement after the millenial reign of Christ on earth. Verse 9 of 2nd Thess 1:6 which speaks of everlasting destruction, rather than a temporary punishment, leads me to believe this.


#4 That at the end of the Millennium Satan will be loosed from the bottomless pit, he will deceive a great multitude of mortals God will destroy them, then will come the great white throne judgment as taught in Revelation 20:7-15.
Yep I think so. And there's a first and second resurrection in there somewhere (Rev 20).

#5 After the Great White Throne judgment New Jerusalem will come down from Heaven to the New Earth we will live in the New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus Christ for all eternity, while the wicked suffer for all eternity in the Lake of Fire as taught in Revelation 21.

Makes sense to me.
 
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onwingsaseagles

Guest
#19
So onwings, do you think its your job to teach everyone about the tribulation, or do you think its the job of the holy spirit?
also in 1 Thess 5:9 it says that God did not appoint us to suffer wrath
if God did not appoint us to suffer wrath, than why do you think that God would allow us to be left behind Onwings, espeacially when you read about all that will happen in those days. I mean in 1 Thess 5 :2 it says the day of the Lord will come as a theif in the night. We don't know Onwings, no one knows. And i do agree that people will be saved during the time of the tribulation, that is clear, however the bible clearly states, that God's wrath is not for His children. God is a God of mercy.
But yes, many will come to know and bless Christ and His name, and how could they do so withouth the holy spirit.
matthew
mat24:36"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, [fn] but My Father only.Mat 24:37But as the days of Noah [were], so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.Mat 24:38For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,Mat 24:39and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.Mat 24:40Then two [men] will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
Mat 24:41Two [women will be] grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.Mat 24:42Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour [fn] your Lord is coming.Mat 24:43But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.Mat 24:44Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
I am not sure what point it is you are trying to make? But yes only God through the Holy Spirit can teach anyone anything, yet He uses people to tell people the truth and then it is up to the person hearing this truth to allow the Holy Spirit to confirm it in their spirits. However many harden their hearts to the truth because #1 they have been brought up to believe otherwise or #2 because it is not something they want to believe.

As to whether or not God will allow Christians to go through the tribulation or not, there are a few points that can be made.
#1 The tribulation itself is not the wrath of God.
#2 God allowed Jesus to suffer the cross, all but one of the Apostles to be martyred, the Chinese Christians are persecuted as we speak and Christians in Africa are being martyred by the 1,000s each day. Why is it that the western American Christians think they are too good to suffer for Christ who Himself suffered for them?

As to the point as to know one knows the day or hour and or Christ coming as a thief in the night there are a couple more points that should be made.
#1 Jesus is referring to the Post trib 2nd coming when He states no one will know the day or hour so that really doesn't effect the discussion of the rapture or whether Christ return is pre or post trib because in verses 29-31 Jesus tells us specifically that His return is immediately after the Tribulation.
#2 When Jesus returns as a thief in the night, He is not coming against Christians as a thief in the night we will know His return is near, the wicked are the ones that will taken off guard. Even the passage you quote in Matthew 24 verses 36-40 tell us that. The wicked knew not until the flood came and took them away, but Noah knew the flood was coming and was prepared for it. So will we be prepared for Christ's 2nd coming, it is the wicked who will not be, it is the wicked whom Christ will come and destroy as a thief in the night.

1st Thess 5:2-4
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


You see olive we are not in darkness that that day should over take us as a thief.
 

olivetree32

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2009
226
36
28
#20
38For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,Mat 24:39and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.Mat 24:40Then two [men] will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
Mat 24:41Two [women will be] grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.Mat 24:42Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour [fn] your Lord is

hmm, i wonder what it means than Onwings with one will be taken and the other one left, i mean you say , this is after the tribulation. if its after the trib, than why would one be taken and the other one left behind?? that makes no since. Im sorry but God is going to spare us from the hour of tribulation.
lets look at the book of Daniel. you say the Tribulation is not God's wrath, but lets look at what Daniel says about the end times as well.
Dan 8:18While he was speaking to me, I was in a deep sleep, with my face to the ground. Then he touched me and raised me to my feet.

Dan 8:19He said: "I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end. [fn

you can continue to read the rest of Daniel chapter 9 as well.
and than chapter 11 wich talks about the antichrist, lets see in Daniel 11:

Dan 11:36"Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done
 
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